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What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 4:25:03 AM

GaryChildress

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I have to wonder why bother with the following categories of units when playing a campaign game as Germans:

Anti-Tank - Are these good for anything?
Anti-Aircraft - Isn't it better just to purchase fighters?
Strategic Bomber - Aren't tactical bombers more useful?
Recon - Why buy recon if you can just save, move, and then load save?

Is there really any reason to waste scarce PPs and core slots on these? It would probably make more sense if you were issued one of each category at the beginning of the campaign, forcing you to use them. Otherwise you could probably go an entire game without ever using one.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 4:52:59 AM

BriteLite

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Every unit type has advantages that sometimes are subtle and not easily noticed. I generally don't buy many AA and AT units but I do get a few. If the AI has naval forces the best way to deal with them is Strat bombers. A Ju-88 is and absolute naval killer. Norway is difficult to win without at least one. Also important for neutralizing cities/ports and reducing enemy unit effectiveness prior to combat. Recon is essential to see enemy positions as you advance your kampfgruppen. Compare the cost of recon to rebuilding/replacing your best units that are ambushed and sometimes destroyed,

As Allied airpower increases during the war experienced AA units will many times allow friendlies to survive combined arms attacks to fight another day. The same is true of AT units as the campaign evolves into a defensive struggle.

My 2 cents :)

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 5:45:32 AM

GaryChildress

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Anti-Tank units are almost worthless. I remember in PG 1 I used them to knock out pill boxes, they were very effective against them, but there aren't much in the way of pill boxes in PC. Even in a defensive scenario it's probably better to have a tank than an anti-tank unit. There really needs to be some reason to have them in this game. Otherwise they are a useless category.

The only saving gace for anti-aircraft units is that fighters are very expensive. Still if you can afford the price, it's better to fill core slots with fighters than AA units. I really don't see any use to AA if you can afford fighters.

Bombers are good against naval units but how many scenarios do you find yourself up against enemy ships? Norway I managed to squeak by without any strats. Sea Lion you get a couple strats by default so you don't need to purchase any. Strats can suppress land targets but I find that most of the time they just kick up dirt and don't do a thing to their target, not even suppression. So it's probably better to use Stukas.

Recon are actually somewhat useful. They have a 3 hex spotting range and can multi move making them useful for capturing multiple undefended objectives if you need to or they can move past ZOCs to take out a depleted artillery unit or something. However, if you can afford a regular tank or another infantry unit you are probably doing yourself a better service then wasting a slot on recon.

Sure, units have their advantages and disadvantages, they're not completely useless but in the final analysis I can get through any scenario without resort to a single unit from the four forementioned classes. In fact purchasing a single unit from any of those classes is probably more of a detriment when you consider wasting valuable core slots. It's a no-brainer. Instead of anti-tank, buy a tank. Instead of AA, buy a fighter. Instead of Strats buy a Stuka. Instead of recon, invest in something more useful like another infantry, tank, fighter or tactical bomber. Otherwise you're basically squandering resources.

You can easily fight a whole campaign just using infantry, tanks, artillery, fighters and tactical bombers and nothing else.

In order to make them a little more useful you could do the following:

Anti-Tank: gives a hard attack and hard defense bonus to all adjacent units on both offense and defense. AND/OR give them a free shot against adjacent enemy units like an artillery unit.

Anti-Air: Gives an air defense bonus to all units within their firing range (eg. all units within two hexes of the AA unit if it has a range of 2) and takes a shot at any air attacks within their firing range.

Bombers: Give you +25 prestiege points every time they bomb a city.

Recon: spotting range of 4 instead of 3. Max movement of 10 instead of 8.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 7/24/2011 5:53:37 AM >

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 6:43:04 AM

Razz1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Recon - Why buy recon if you can just save, move, and then load save?

SO you propose for us to cheat?

You are fooling yourself if you think cheating is rewarding.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 9:02:53 AM

homunculus88

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AA units can fire defensively multiple times, until they run out of ammo, fighters only fire defensively once. I use AA units to cover my artillery and fighters to cover my tactical bombers.

The late-war german self-propelled AT units are VERY powerful. If I remember correctly, they are cheaper when compared to a tank of similar power. On the other hand, towed AT units are not that good.

But I too find strat bombers rather useless, except against enemy navy, where they are really good. Perhaps it would be good to give some feedback about the result of the bombing run. If I remember correctly, in PG you got a message like "The enemy loses XX prestige" when you bombed a city with a strat bomber.

< Message edited by homunculus88 -- 7/24/2011 10:20:28 AM >

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:16:28 AM

Rudankort

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I posted this link somewhere already, but it will be useful here too. Check out this video AAR of Low Countries scenario played on Manstein difficulty level (all enemies at 15 strength):

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26173

It shows how useful strategic bombers can be.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:21:49 AM

Rudankort

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To answer the original post, it all depends on the specific situation. Do you play single scenario or campaign? Easy or hard difficulty level? Single player or multiplayer?

If you are playing 1939 campaign and the difficulty is not set too high, you can probably win with almost anything. But if you pick 1943 campaign for example, and don't have time and money to bring up big and experienced fighter and tank force, AA and AT units can well be a better choice. Recons are indispensable in multiplayer. About strategic bombers I posted above.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:33:14 AM

Zerstorer

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Since most PC scenarios are primarily "offensive" in nature, the defensive units AT/AD (especially the towed units) tend to be less useful. Units that have no offensive capabilities simply aren't presented as many useful situations... not only are they generally not needed in most (early) scenarios, gaining experience with them is more difficult since the AI must initiate combat with them first. Since the oportunities to use these "defensive" units is more restrictive, it would be nice to see them have a more "specialized" advantage in the game. AD units could/should have offensive capability - possibly something like what is already available for the 88s - selectable anti-air or anti-ground modes. For AT units, maybe an addition initiative bonus if they have not moved the previous turn. Maybe a special offensive "surpression bonus" for AD vs aircraft or AT vs tank could work. Or simply make towed AD/AT even less expensive to balance them out. Just a few ideas.

-just saw Rudankort's response - and certainly agree that Recon and Strategic Bombers are useful (more so than towed equipment).

< Message edited by Zerstorer -- 7/24/2011 10:36:19 AM >

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:45:29 AM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

I posted this link somewhere already, but it will be useful here too. Check out this video AAR of Low Countries scenario played on Manstein difficulty level (all enemies at 15 strength):

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26173

It shows how useful strategic bombers can be.

What are the strategic bombers accomplishing? I see them kicking up dirt when bombing an enemy unit but most of the time they aren't damaging them and I don't see where they are causing any suppression?

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:50:11 AM

Rudankort

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When the work on Panzer Corps only started, we had a lot of discussions how to make certain unit classes more useful, and some steps in this direction were made. For example, merging AA and AD classes was made to make AA units more useful overall and provide better upgrade options. Recons were revamped and air recon nerfed down. AT units were made much better in offensive role (in PG series they recieved a crippling initiative penalty, in PzC they only get very mild -3 which is often compensated by generally high AT initiative ratings provided by their powerful guns). So, we did think about this.

However, when working on this, we also realized that making all classes equally useful in all cases is just not realistic. AT and AA units are not useful to germans in early scenarios, yes. But they are very useful to the allies. This is realistic, because germans are on offense and allies are on defense. Do we really need to change this and provide reasons for germans to use AT and AA guns offensively?

In late war, on the other hand, germans are on defense, and those great SPAT units they posess become very valuable. Look at the price of Elefant, JagdPanther and JagdTiger, and look at their stats. When used wisely they can oppose even the most powerful allied tanks, for half the price.

PS. I agree that the price of towed AT guns might need some reduction.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:54:22 AM

Rudankort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
What are the strategic bombers accomplishing? I see them kicking up dirt when bombing an enemy unit but most of the time they aren't damaging them and I don't see where they are causing any suppression?

When you see them "kicking up dirt", they cause long-term suppression to enemy units, and this is one useful thing they do. When long-term suppression is exploited in the right way (e. g. you suppress arty and AA units to disable their defensive fire, or you surround suppressed unit and force it to surrender) it can be a very valuable asset in your battle.

Another useful thing is that they destroy unit fuel/ammo reserves. For example, a couple of bombing raids with strategic bombers leaves those formidable forts in Belgium with no ammo, and then assault units come in and finish them off with no casualties to themselves.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 11:17:11 AM

Josh

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Strat Bombers rule, really. Once you have upgraded to a decent bomber it can stay in the air almost forever, it's very resilient against Flak, and suppresses enemy units into dust (as in up to 100% suppression and only two rounds of ammo left)

Recon rules too! You want to hit that Russian Arty first? Then use your recon, yes you can use planes as scouts but you can be assured that plane will be shot down by the Flak that *always* accompanies the ARty.

AT guns you're spot on, they suck. If you move them by their transport they're sitting ducks in their trucks, if you move them one hex they will be nowhere near the front. The AT gun is a typical unit I would buy as a non-core unit, but alass that is not allowed.

Not sure about the 88 Flak yet, trying that out myself now. As it is I use fighters for bomberprotection/ enemy fighter destruction, and the 88 as Flak cover for my troops.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 11:23:42 AM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

When the work on Panzer Corps only started, we had a lot of discussions how to make certain unit classes more useful, and some steps in this direction were made. For example, merging AA and AD classes was made to make AA units more useful overall and provide better upgrade options. Recons were revamped and air recon nerfed down. AT units were made much better in offensive role (in PG series they recieved a crippling initiative penalty, in PzC they only get very mild -3 which is often compensated by generally high AT initiative ratings provided by their powerful guns). So, we did think about this.

However, when working on this, we also realized that making all classes equally useful in all cases is just not realistic. AT and AA units are not useful to germans in early scenarios, yes. But they are very useful to the allies. This is realistic, because germans are on offense and allies are on defense. Do we really need to change this and provide reasons for germans to use AT and AA guns offensively?

In late war, on the other hand, germans are on defense, and those great SPAT units they posess become very valuable. Look at the price of Elefant, JagdPanther and JagdTiger, and look at their stats. When used wisely they can oppose even the most powerful allied tanks, for half the price.

PS. I agree that the price of towed AT guns might need some reduction.

I've tweaked the initial "Poland" campaign a little, adding an AT, AA, Strategic Bomber and Recon to the default core battlegroup already placed on the map. So at least you start out with one of each and are somewhat forced to use them in the game. This is the best solution I know of.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 11:27:58 AM

Rudankort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I've tweaked the initial "Poland" campaign a little, adding an AT, AA, Strategic Bomber and Recon to the default core battlegroup already placed on the map. So at least you start out with one of each and are somewhat forced to use them in the game. This is the best solution I know of.

Well, some people will like it, some won't. Personally, I prefer to give the player the choice to buy whatever they want. That is the reason why Poland is such a small map with so few core units - we give the player an option to build the core the way he wants in the course of the campaign. People who prefer more realistic force composition are better off playing individual scens, where you are forced to deal mostly with what is given to you.

< Message edited by Rudankort -- 7/24/2011 11:29:29 AM >

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 11:36:37 AM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I've tweaked the initial "Poland" campaign a little, adding an AT, AA, Strategic Bomber and Recon to the default core battlegroup already placed on the map. So at least you start out with one of each and are somewhat forced to use them in the game. This is the best solution I know of.

Well, some people will like it, some won't. Personally, I prefer to give the player the choice to buy whatever they want. That is the reason why Poland is such a small map with so few core units - we give the player an option to build the core the way he wants in the course of the campaign. People who prefer more realistic force composition are better off playing individual scens, where you are forced to deal mostly with what is given to you.

I swapped out units already placed on the map for these additions. I didn't diminish the number of purchase slots any in the game. The player still gets to purchase the same additional units he could before. Basically I used an AT in place of one of the PZ1s, the AA instead of a starting Me 109, A recon instead of one of the foot infantry units and a strategic bomber instead of the Me110. It also makes the scenario a little more challenging I think.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 12:14:20 PM

Zerstorer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

When the work on Panzer Corps only started, we had a lot of discussions how to make certain unit classes more useful, and some steps in this direction were made. For example, merging AA and AD classes was made to make AA units more useful overall and provide better upgrade options. Recons were revamped and air recon nerfed down. AT units were made much better in offensive role (in PG series they recieved a crippling initiative penalty, in PzC they only get very mild -3 which is often compensated by generally high AT initiative ratings provided by their powerful guns). So, we did think about this.

However, when working on this, we also realized that making all classes equally useful in all cases is just not realistic. AT and AA units are not useful to germans in early scenarios, yes. But they are very useful to the allies. This is realistic, because germans are on offense and allies are on defense. Do we really need to change this and provide reasons for germans to use AT and AA guns offensively?

In late war, on the other hand, germans are on defense, and those great SPAT units they posess become very valuable. Look at the price of Elefant, JagdPanther and JagdTiger, and look at their stats. When used wisely they can oppose even the most powerful allied tanks, for half the price.

PS. I agree that the price of towed AT guns might need some reduction.

Agree that the PC changes have certainly been an improvement over the original game. It's one of the best aspects of PC !

No. The reason for any change would be to make them a more useful purchase prior to mid-late war (changing offensive capability would be just one possible approach - giving the player a legitimate reason for purchasing them and creating a balanced force). While it may be realistic that AD/AT units are not as usefull for the Germans as the are to the Allies early on... historically the Germans really did "purchase" them - trucking them along to Poland, France etc. There just isn't a reason to purchase them in PC for half the war - and - maybe never will be. That's OK too, just unfortunate that any unit type would be relatively unnecessary.

A price reduction for towed AT guns sounds like a simple solution. Maybe that would also work for the AD class as well... certainly for the early war/small caliber weapons.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 12:17:20 PM

GaryChildress

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This is what I did. The only changes are units swapped out. Nothing else.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 12:22:00 PM

Rudankort

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quote:

No. The reason for any change would be to make them a more useful purchase prior to mid-late war (changing offensive capability would be just one possible approach - giving the player a legitimate reason for purchasing them and creating a balanced force). While it may be realistic that AD/AT units are not as usefull for the Germans as the are to the Allies early on... historically the Germans really did "purchase" them - trucking them along to Poland, France etc. There just isn't a reason to purchase them in PC for half the war - and - maybe never will be. That's OK too, just unfortunate that any unit type would be relatively unnecessary.

Well, I think that getting a PanzerJager (6 initiative and 10 HA is quite good when it appears) is not such a bad idea. As for AA, 88mm FlaK appears quite early and many players seem to be using it with good effect. Also, I agree that SPAAs might use active attack ratings (not in []), just like in PG, this might make them an interesting option. This, combined with some price tweaking, will probably improve the balance a bit.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 12:26:49 PM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort
Also, I agree that SPAAs might use active attack ratings (not in []), just like in PG, this might make them an interesting option.

Can this be edited in the "Equipment" file somehow?

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 12:28:54 PM

Rudankort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Can this be edited in the "Equipment" file somehow?

Yes. In eqp file negative attack ratings are "passive" and positive attack ratings are "active". So just remove "-".

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 12:58:47 PM

GaryChildress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Can this be edited in the "Equipment" file somehow?

Yes. In eqp file negative attack ratings are "passive" and positive attack ratings are "active". So just remove "-".

1. If a unit has an active soft attack value but a passive hard attack value does that mean it can only attack infantry?

2. Is it possible, using the Equipment file to set AT weapons so that they give a combat bonus to adjacent units? If so how would I go about that?

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 1:04:30 PM

Rudankort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
1. If a unit has an active soft attack value but a passive hard attack value does that mean it can only attack infantry?

2. Is it possible, using the Equipment file to set AT weapons so that they give a combat bonus to adjacent units? If so how would I go about that?

1. Unit with active soft attack can attack soft targets - infantry, trucks, towed guns. However, if its hard attack is passive, it cannot attack hard targets - tanks, SPATs, armored recon cars etc.

2. This is not possible, at least not yet. I have some ideas how to enable modding of all kinds of unit cooperation and support in an easy way, so it may get into one of the future updates, but no promises at this point.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 1:28:10 PM

Zerstorer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

[Well, I think that getting a PanzerJager (6 initiative and 10 HA is quite good when it appears) is not such a bad idea. As for AA, 88mm FlaK appears quite early and many players seem to be using it with good effect. Also, I agree that SPAAs might use active attack ratings (not in []), just like in PG, this might make them an interesting option. This, combined with some price tweaking, will probably improve the balance a bit.

True. Pzjg seems like a good early option and the 88 with the selectable AT role (great idea by the way... something similar could possibly be applied to other units). And a few minor tweaks (SPAA/towed AT) could certainly give the player more reason to consider these purchases.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 1:35:43 PM

Zerstorer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I've tweaked the initial "Poland" campaign a little, adding an AT, AA, Strategic Bomber and Recon to the default core battlegroup already placed on the map. So at least you start out with one of each and are somewhat forced to use them in the game. This is the best solution I know of.

Nice idea for an alternate start. The option to start each campaign with an different core units could be interesting.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 5:27:49 PM

Razz1

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Strategic Bombers are great if you know how to use them.

For AT and AA, I get the 88 as soon as possible and I also like the the self propelled AA.

Getting a Pk 5 and upgrading to 76mm and then to self propelled pays off late game as they have the experience.

Experienced AT's are good to have. Same with mobile AA. If you get these units early and groom them to get experience, the rewards are great.

Unfortunately the AT's can get lost in combat but usually at a pivotal point in the campaign where you just killed a big heavy tank. So, the sacrifice is worth it.

Remember AT's are great for blocking. Position yourself so the AI will attack it while you sweep left or right.

For the first scenario, personally I would beef up the Polish a little and set a counter attack force.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 6:00:05 PM

Longasc

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Recon units are indeed tricky. Their movement often enables them to penetrate defensive lines and knock out artillery but they usually don't survive such incursions.

I still have two in my core and their spotting when not playing save/reload should not be underestimated but they are so fragile that scouting with them is often barely possible which defeats their purpose.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 7:08:59 PM

Rudankort

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Longasc
I still have two in my core and their spotting when not playing save/reload should not be underestimated but they are so fragile that scouting with them is often barely possible which defeats their purpose.

At least you can scout ahead and retreat back on the same turn, using recon movement.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 10:47:50 PM

Apollo1967

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I think that the recon units are actually very useful. As has been stated, you can use them to zoom around the enemy flank and take out that damaged artillery piece then use the remaining movement to get out of range. They are also good for grabbing multiple victory locations in one turn.

On the AA, I do believe that most if not all of these units should be able to "switch" in the same way the 88 does. In some of the German battlefield accounts I've been reading lately (like Otto Carius's "Tigers in the Mud") I've noticed that whenever a section of the line was being reinforced to meet a Soviet attack, tanks, assault guns, and AA were brought into the line at that location to stiffen the defenses.

BTW, is there bug with movement of the Sdkfz 222? I noticed in the scenario "Barbarossa" that the recon unit I am given (an Sdkfz 232? I'm not sure) seemed to be able to move farther in every situation than my core Sdkfz 222, despite having the same movement range. Is this because the 232 is better at moving over difficult terrain, or am I just imagining things?

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 11:22:38 PM

Rudankort

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222 uses wheeled movement, while 232 has all-terrain movement. So yes, the latter can go further across difficult terrain.

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RE: What to do with them? - 7/24/2011 11:32:20 PM

Razz1

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^ That's why it would be neat to experiment with the 222 having a visibility range of 4.
Problem is finding similar unit for the British, Americans, and Russians.

Positive
Can see farther
Reason to buy 222
cost is less

Negative
still has same short range movement
weak on attack or defense compared to other recon
Wheeled movement so can not go over rough terrain well

Now a player has a choice between the 222 and a superior recon unit.

Currently there is no incentive to buy a 222 once there are better units.

If the experiment worked in testing, I'd like to see it implement if and only if other Allied units had the same feature.

Don't forget the Italians.

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