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Proposal to make AT more useful

 
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Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/24/2011 1:48:24 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		For assault guns, self propelled AT and AT guns what about doing the following:

Give attack range of 1 instead of 0. This would basically give AT a free shot at enemy units from an adjacent hex without retaliation.

Maybe nerf soft attack values some more but keep hard attack where they are.

Alternatively, what if I set attack range of 2 and set hard and soft attack both to passive? Would that enable AT units to defend adjacent units?

Hmmmm.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/24/2011 2:06:12 PM   
Rudankort


Posts: 230
Joined: 12/4/2010
Status: offline 		Why would we want to give SPATs 1 range?

If you set range to 2, it will be able to defend of course, range stat means "maximum range", everything below it works too.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/24/2011 2:14:08 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rudankort

Why would we want to give SPATs 1 range?



Because it would make SPATs more valuable. It basically gives SPATs a "free" shot at enemy units without retaliation, like artillery units. I'm just trying to make them more worthwhile to have in your core group.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/24/2011 3:14:32 PM   
Dragoon.


Posts: 175
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Rio Grande do Sul
Status: offline 		Similar like the AT-units in functioned in Peoples General?

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/24/2011 4:50:16 PM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		Range 1 would make AT's very dangerous.

It would be great to test this.

They would be very powerful. Most likely you would have to increase the cost and reduce the attack statistics.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/24/2011 5:22:12 PM   
Dumnorix


Posts: 793
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		With my big map mod I will change all weapon distances to 1 Hex = 1km - a StuGIIIB can fire 2 hexfields than , a 50mm Pak also, Artillery will set to 8-20 Hexfields etc.

H.Balck

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/25/2011 1:26:32 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

Range 1 would make AT's very dangerous.

It would be great to test this.

They would be very powerful. Most likely you would have to increase the cost and reduce the attack statistics.


One thing I could maybe do is nerf their soft attack considerably. Basically their primary function would be to kill tanks and nothing else. So they would be very effective against tanks but not so against infantry. Also I will try nerfing the close defense. Basically infantry will easily overrun them. But if you have tanks...watch out!

I'm going to do some in game testing to see how well this works. I know the AI likes towed AT. Should make it interesting.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/25/2011 6:36:59 AM   
jomni


Posts: 2827
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Why not increase initiative instead of range to simlate their "first shot" capabilities?
Based on the abstracted scale of the game, I suppose these AT units are not pure AT but have some infantry and support contingents.
This is not Steel Panthers but a lot of people are tempted to do what it does.

< Message edited by jomni -- 7/25/2011 6:38:50 AM >

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/25/2011 3:30:13 PM   
Zerstorer


Posts: 19
Joined: 7/18/2011
Status: offline 		A problem with raising initiative is that it effects all combat. Ideally one would have "separate initiative values" against each target class. That way AT units could have a very high initiative vs. armored units, but not against infantry units. It might even work for AD units too... very high vs. aircraft but lower vs. any other unit (that would eliminate the need for [#] - defensive only - attack pts... and make all these "defensive" units more valuable). However, changing the game mechanics might not be possible.

I still see the primary problem being the cost diffence between towed AT and self-propelled AT units. Towed AT (and AD) units are simply over-priced considering they are not as useful as the self-propelled units. As another proposal, maybe the purchase of towed equipment should include its basic transportion (a truck) free. That could go a long ways toward balancing the disparity between the cost/effectiveness of towed vs. self propelled units.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/26/2011 2:30:07 AM   
JKG


Posts: 150
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: Alabama
Status: offline 		Hi all. First post in this forum. I've really enjoyed Panzer Corps and offer my appreciation for a job well done!

I would also encourage a re-evaluation of AT class properties. After playing through the single player campaign, I can say for me the AT unit was an underperforming unit class. I bought two 88 dual purpose units early, primarily to provide air defense for my towed artillery. Never really had a need to use them against ground units until Operation Bagration. Once needed, they performed miserably. Even though they were 13 strength units, they were mowed over quickly early in the scenario.

Some of this I think is due to the scenario design. For example, your entrenchment is low to begin with and there are no fortifiable positions except for city hexes. Given that you are facing hordes of armor or other self-propelled units, there is no way to conduct a fighting retreat as your 88s are vulnerable once moved. They basically have to stand, fight and die in their original deployment positions. The few times they were able to engage ground units they dealt disappointingly little damage and often did not fire first. This may have been because they were fighting top of the line IS-2s, but I was a little peeved that they did not do better preventing the Soviet river crossings.

Perhaps AT units are more useful in multi-player where the unit mix of units might be more historically accurate. Again, for me the 88 in particular did not perform as I would have expected given their reputation on the WWII battlefield. I experienced a similar pattern with the few self-propelled units I purchased. One of their problems is that they arrive late and have an expensive upgrade path.

Hopefully, we will see some experimenation with user-made mods that will provide an idea of what adjustments might be worth incorporating.

Anyway, enjoying the game! Good job guys.

(in reply to Zerstorer)
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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/26/2011 10:31:28 AM   
IainMcNeil


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Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		You should try the self propelled AT guns - they are quite cost effective in the late war.

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RE: Proposal to make AT more useful - 7/27/2011 8:23:10 AM   
soldier1

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/13/2011
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quote:

You should try the self propelled AT guns - they are quite cost effective in the late war.

For me that's pretty much the problem. SPAT is effective and relatively cheap, the problem is that fixed AT is neither cheap nor all that effective. There's no reason to purchase the towed version. example
Archer = 320
17 pounder = 291
stats (and gun) are the same but the fixed unit cannot get away, Add a vunerable truck and it costs even more. Its even worse for the little guns. I 'm not really in favour of adding range to these weapons as some sort of compensation, just make them cheaper. It worked in Panzer General and it will work here too.


< Message edited by soldier1 -- 7/27/2011 10:16:21 AM >

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