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Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 2:49:38 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		This is the results of an attack on my Destroyer TF....DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Sterett, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Voyager, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Benham, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Caldwell, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Gillespie, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Bailey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Gansevoort, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Woodworth, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Nicholas, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Does anyone see anything absurd about these results...Well in the entire pacific War only five allied DD's were sunk by aircraft torpedoes....They are the Henley 3 October 1943, Jarvis 9 August 1942, Lansdale 20 April 1944, Meredith 15 October 1942, and the Strong Kula Gulf, Solomons 5 July 1943.....Jap. torpedoe pilots were good but the game makes them into God's. Hitting a small and very fast DD's was almost impossible.
Post #: 1
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 2:51:38 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

This is the results of an attack on my Destroyer TF....DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Sterett, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Voyager, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Benham, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Caldwell, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Gillespie, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Bailey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Gansevoort, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Woodworth, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Nicholas, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Does anyone see anything absurd about these results...Well in the entire pacific War only five allied DD's were sunk by aircraft torpedoes....They are the Henley 3 October 1943, Jarvis 9 August 1942, Lansdale 20 April 1944, Meredith 15 October 1942, and the Strong Kula Gulf, Solomons 5 July 1943.....Jap. torpedoe pilots were good but the game makes them into God's. Hitting a small and very fast DD's was almost impossible.


No where near enough data to draw a conclusion. How many planes, weather conditions, etc?

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 2:56:27 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I'm just saying a small fast DD would be very difficult to hit with a torpedo in any condition.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 3
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 3:41:18 PM   
beppi

 

Posts: 382
Joined: 3/11/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I'm just saying a small fast DD would be very difficult to hit with a torpedo in any condition.


It is currently very very hard to torp DDs in the game. So again the question, how many planes where attacking ?

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Post #: 4
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 3:58:11 PM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline 		I've caught destroyers in port, at sea refueling, stationary or slowed because of damage, etc. so it isn't impossible. Aircrew skills, weather, TF orders, TF fuel, leaders, all can effect results.

More often I have wasted a lot of torps and supply on missions against destroyers that were steaming through contested areas. My opponent likes to bait my betties and nells with destroyer TFs and they don't hit a damn thing and usually lose a couple to flak in the process.

This seems more like a unsubstantiated complaint IMHO.

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 4:47:28 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

This is the results of an attack on my Destroyer TF....DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Sterett, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Voyager, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Benham, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Caldwell, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Gillespie, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Bailey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Gansevoort, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Woodworth, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Nicholas, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Does anyone see anything absurd about these results...Well in the entire pacific War only five allied DD's were sunk by aircraft torpedoes....They are the Henley 3 October 1943, Jarvis 9 August 1942, Lansdale 20 April 1944, Meredith 15 October 1942, and the Strong Kula Gulf, Solomons 5 July 1943.....Jap. torpedoe pilots were good but the game makes them into God's. Hitting a small and very fast DD's was almost impossible.






I know, this should be equally 'impossible' as well...

DD McDermut
DD Monssen

BB Yamashiro, torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Yamagumo, torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Michisio, torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Asagumo, torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


Like AW1Steve says, you've provided insufficient information. A large DD force-like the one you identify-if set upon by 13 Japanese CVs with dozens or hundreds of torpedo-laden experten. Well...them's the breaks. It could happen, given the right circumstances.



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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 4:51:37 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I'm just saying a small fast DD would be very difficult to hit with a torpedo in any condition.


"If enough ants are employed , one may overcome the mightiest giant".

If in bad weather the ships would be slow, AAA poor. If 500 Betties attack the DD's at anchor , you got off light. It ALL depends on circumstances. We don't have the data to provide intelligent insight. Give!

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 5:19:13 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Were they docked? Don't know if that would matter.

Ed-

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Post #: 8
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 5:38:11 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		They look to be docked.....

I had a PT force obliterated from long range because I had them docked and they took a while to get underway..

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 5:45:16 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

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Post #: 10
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 6:02:18 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		version would be good too.

A bug/error was found in earlier AE whereby ships with higher maneuver ratings were easier to hit vs. the bigger targets. This was resolved in newer builds of AE.

Prior to this fix was the only time i ever saw a result similar to what is being presented here.


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Post #: 11
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 6:20:31 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Ok since it was several turns ago here is what I remember..GC2, Version 6i, ships were all out to sea and in four different TF's weather I think was not an issue since I was only a few hexes from the CV TF that launched the attack.

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Post #: 12
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 6:33:47 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		1106i. so your fully updated.

two possabilities.

1) freak result (it does happen.......i once hit Prince of Wales with a full 6 torpedo salvo from an Iboat....ONCE, never came close to duplicating it again)

2) issue (obviously) If you have a save, post it to the tech forum




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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 6:47:16 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I also considered that I am playing ROY, he is a master at playing against the game engine but even he shouldn't be able to cause a torpedoe to chase down a small, fast DD.

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Post #: 14
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/26/2011 7:09:32 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Are you trying get help?
If you do, then what you post is about as helpful as someone with a sprained ankle being asked about the location and detail of
his pain, responing: "that hurts somewhere".

If you only had DD´s around and exposed nothing else, ran into KB and had your destroyers exposed to 200+ kates then
don´t complain about the result. But thats been said already.
If you got attacked by a CVL force and recorded a 95% hit percentage from the meager dozen of TBs, then theres a chance you can report an issue.


Is the difference obvious?

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 12:53:55 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I am about 800 turns or more into my campaign and it is my experience that DDs do not get hit much by air torpedoes. In fact, when I am stalking small fast ships I tend to set my avengers to use bombs. (Yes, they are too accurate but you gotta do what you gotta do. )

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 1:50:37 AM   
Sredni

 

Posts: 705
Joined: 9/30/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Only 3 DD's may have been sunk by air launched torpedoes in the war, however I don't think a force of DD's with no air cover ever came close to a massed blob of unopposed IJN carriers either.

And carrier TB's are a lot more accurate then nells and betties I believe? Further aggravating your circumstances.

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Post #: 17
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 2:34:24 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		We've had 4 posts from the creater of this thread, and he still hasn't provided more information. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that he 1) is simply looking for a sholder to cry on (and isn't getting one) or 2) is trolling.

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Post #: 18
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 3:04:38 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Steve, sdhundt has been around the forums a long time. Definitely not a troll. Frustrated, sure. A troll-no.

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Post #: 19
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 3:59:58 AM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think you're are going to like this, but...

Combat resolution is simply a formula. Put in editor supplied characteristics for atacker and target, add a dose of random, and run the numbers. Since random is involved ANY OUTCOME IS POSSIBLE. And random being what it is, you could get any combination of any outcome. Even an absurd one.

In theory, the outcome should align with random chance with a few million rolls. But in the short tern the dice could come up "6" any number of times in a row.

Tthat's all I can say.

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 7/27/2011 4:00:06 AM >

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 7:40:54 AM   
fuelli

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Seems to be a problem with the understanding of "impossible" and "most improbable"

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Post #: 21
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 5:09:29 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fuelli

Seems to be a problem with the understanding of "impossible" and "most improbable"


Just remember... 'it happens'. You can modify that how you like.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 22
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 7:27:12 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Steve, sdhundt has been around the forums a long time. Definitely not a troll. Frustrated, sure. A troll-no.


Good to know, thanks. But he obviously doesn't want our help. If he did , he's cough up the info. And I GET frustrated with people who won't help themselves, or help others to help them when they ask for it.

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Post #: 23
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 7:49:07 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I found the number of Chinese slaughtered, say 2500 to ten LYBs rather hard to swallow at first, now I just assume they are not trained in the art of retreat yet. V2 seems to have addressed it to a degree.

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Post #: 24
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 8:10:19 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I found the number of Chinese slaughtered, say 2500 to ten LYBs rather hard to swallow at first, now I just assume they are not trained in the art of retreat yet. V2 seems to have addressed it to a degree.


Poorly trained troops get slaughtered when they face crack troops. That's not the game, that's military history and military science. Race has nothing to do with it. You get a poor showing out of Australian Milita when you put them up against crack troops. Australian regulars just back from North Africa are a whole different kettle of fish.



One of the things I keep telling people is "Are there any conditions in real life that could cause the upset?" Look for those 1st, before calling the game broke. Quite often, the game is doing a stupendous job of modeling reality , and we are doing a stupendous job of being stupid! OOPS! I left my fighters on 100% training and my CV's got their clock cleaned , is a common example.


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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 8:39:39 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I found the number of Chinese slaughtered, say 2500 to ten LYBs rather hard to swallow at first, now I just assume they are not trained in the art of retreat yet. V2 seems to have addressed it to a degree.


Poorly trained troops with extremely low moral in a disorganized retreat getting slaughtered? I find it completely believable, and to be honest it is exactly what happened. Remember, this is not a US Marine regiment making a fighting withdrawal with a rear guard covering the retreat. Many of the troops in a Chinese corps were recruited unwillingly (that is conscripted and sometimes at gunpoint), having a rifle stuck in their hand an just enough training on how to point and shoot, and many times poorly supplied. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with lack of training and poor leadership.

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 9:02:23 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I found the number of Chinese slaughtered, say 2500 to ten LYBs rather hard to swallow at first, now I just assume they are not trained in the art of retreat yet. V2 seems to have addressed it to a degree.


Poorly trained troops with extremely low moral in a disorganized retreat getting slaughtered? I find it completely believable, and to be honest it is exactly what happened. Remember, this is not a US Marine regiment making a fighting withdrawal with a rear guard covering the retreat. Many of the troops in a Chinese corps were recruited unwillingly (that is conscripted and sometimes at gunpoint), having a rifle stuck in their hand an just enough training on how to point and shoot, and many times poorly supplied. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with lack of training and poor leadership.


Exactly my point! It can happen to anyone. Read about the battle of Brooklyn in the American revolutionary war. Milita broke and ran, and were gunned down in mass.

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RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 9:04:40 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I consider WITP-AE to be an exceptional creation. The research included eclipsing any simulation from my first game (panzerBlitz circa 1971 or so) to Talon softs computer version of ASL.
One side effect, if you will, is the uncanny ability of the game itself to lure one from the sofa, desk, what have you to the book store. Currently in Daniel Marstons book: War in the Pacific.
You may attribute my post as simply ignorance on a grand scale, or just a blurb from a fan of the game posting his two cents. I am convinced that war is only predictable in that they will be fought, results may very.

ps. I am no less emotionally attached to my pixelated forces than I was with my cardboard counters!
pss. I agree with you above on the factors regarding troop quality etc. The shock of results like I mentioned above are very curable by solid mechanics and planning. Hey, I have not played a turn against the AI in quite awhile, as the forums are entertaining in their own right and are helping with learning curve.

thanks, kb (lurker noob)

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 28
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 10:11:25 PM   
roy2008


Posts: 42
Joined: 10/8/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Here the Combat results from this turn, date is 14.1.43

1st Wave/Morning
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 21
D3A1 Val x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Gillespie
DD Bailey
DD O'Brien, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Walke
DD Woodworth
DD Hughes
DD Meade
DD Gansevoort
DD Sterett, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
8 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

2nd Wave/Morning
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Barton
DD Lansdowne
DD Waller

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
12 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

3rd Wave/Morning
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 18
D3A1 Val x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Voyager, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Benham, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
17 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

4th Wave/Morning
Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Nicholas, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

5th Wave/Morning
Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Lansdowne
DD DeHaven
DD Waller

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

6th Wave/Afternoon
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 26
D3A1 Val x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed, 10 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Caldwell, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Hughes
DD Gillespie, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Bailey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Walke, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Gansevoort, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Meade, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Woodworth, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
22 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
15 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring DD Meade

7th Wave/Afternoon
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 10
D3A1 Val x 47

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
D3A1 Val: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Barton
DD DeHaven
DD Waller
DD Lansdowne

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
21 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
18 x D3A1 Val bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

8th Wave/Afternoon
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 7 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Nicholas, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

EXP of my Wings is from 85 - 90, the Results is for me normal











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(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 29
RE: Totaly absurd attack results... - 7/27/2011 10:18:20 PM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline 		Ah, so the results in the initial post were "slightly edited"...

The overall combat results look reasonable to me - the DDs were in the wrong place at the wrong time, ran out of AA ammo, and went down.

And the KB is repairing a fair number of bombers right now.


(in reply to roy2008)
Post #: 30
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