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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 6:21:55 AM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

kfsgo: Could you Post a screen shot of where you THINK to start the war in China? Even just a shot of China with a line going down through it for visual purposes might help bunches.





JPG, sorry, alternatives come out big enough to be a pain. Nanking nominally under Chinese control but contested and mostly ungarrisoned - the Japanese will have it in a day or two but will have to do some minesweeping to move ships further upriver, representing clearing of barrages. Jinan is in the last stages of another unpleasant urban battle. Gotta manufacture a delay somewhere, I guess. Canton I am still thinking about...I want to keep the Japanese out of it, but Hong Kong would have to be demilitarised or it'd turn into a submarine nest within a week of the war starting, and I'm not sure you can write that away. The yellow lines are the 'ideal' limits of navigability on the Yangtze; currently it only goes as far as Wuchang.

I am looking through Chinese economic resources at the moment. The original name of the screenshot was china_economicoption - you wouldn't think it, but in economic terms this and the stock start aren't too different - Wenchow alone makes up for more or less everything else. Hong Kong is again the issue - there's almost as much manpower there as there is in stock 'Occupied China' (38 v 41 - hell, there's only 81 in the rest of China, if I counted correctly) and it has about 60% of the industry of that area. I can see the industrial argument - Chinese businesses evacuating to 'neutral' territory - but I find the manpower concentration odd. None of them are particularly huge numbers in the context of the rest of Japan, anyway.

So - you can definitely release some land forces from China if needed. Theoretically the Chinese shouldn't be going anywhere in a big way for the first few months...

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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 6:49:23 AM   
John 3rd


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WOW! Am certainly not used to seeing a map like that. Think that Canton must be controlled to alleviate the potential threat of Hong Kong. Agree regarding the possibilities of that base being used for nastiness.

Just got done doing some work so let me put that here:

1. Pulled the 34th ID from China service and added it to 16th Army set to attack Hong Kong with 38th ID.
2. Pulled 90th Inf Reg from Manchuria and added it to 16th Army at Babeldoap prepping for Davao.
3. Moved about 8 AP from Home Islands to Samah to reflect the needed extra sealift (thanks Michael). Added some supply there also...
4. Created a new Air Flotilla (the 7th) in Canton, increased AF from 4 to 5, raised Forts from 1 to 3. kfsgo: Perhaps this reflects that it was recently taken or COULD be retaken by the Chinese. The Air Flotilla is attached to China Naval HQ and it has a Daitai and Chutai of Zero, a Chutai of Nells, and Chutai of Kates. Figure this is the IJN's Air presence in China to offset the planes of the AVG.

What do people think of the potential China map?


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 11/4/2011 6:50:04 AM >


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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 6:55:19 AM   
DOCUP


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I would think that the Japanese would atleast take the hex next to Lang So as to have an overland supply route.

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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 8:06:32 AM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Think that Canton must be controlled to alleviate the potential threat of Hong Kong. Agree regarding the possibilities of that base being used for nastiness.



Well, I'm not sure. The one thing I haven't explored so far is adding new bases - I don't think you need to go all-out with that, but it's a situation that could be resolved with the addition of, say, Macau and Bao'an as bases - the Japanese have ship-to-shore teleporters for the first few months, after all. Canton itself is fairly irrelevant as a naval base absent control of HK; the motivation is really maintenance of the Canton-Wuhan railway as late as possible to enable shipping into China. Hardly critical, either way.

quote:

4. Created a new Air Flotilla (the 7th) in Canton, increased AF from 4 to 5, raised Forts from 1 to 3. kfsgo: Perhaps this reflects that it was recently taken or COULD be retaken by the Chinese. The Air Flotilla is attached to China Naval HQ and it has a Daitai and Chutai of Zero, a Chutai of Nells, and Chutai of Kates. Figure this is the IJN's Air presence in China to offset the planes of the AVG.


I don't see how that follows - if it's just been taken it's hardly going to be a larger, more heavily fortified base, especially since in reality it mostly seems to have been taken as a cheap grab after the local forces were removed for the defense of Wuhan.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

I would think that the Japanese would atleast take the hex next to Lang So as to have an overland supply route.


Don't read too much into control of non-base hexes - a lot of the hex boundaries are a couple of pixels off so they tend to overfill. I have a map with most of them cleaned up (I've been using it to get a sense of where the different Chinese War Areas worked) but it wasn't worth going back and doing this one all over again.

< Message edited by kfsgo -- 11/4/2011 8:10:46 AM >

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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 4:23:05 PM   
John 3rd


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If you don't think Canton is viable as a base for the Japanese to have at this point then OK. You've got China Sir. I will send an updated set of files so you can see what I've finished. Remember that there are units present for the taking of Hong Kong. If they need to go elsewhere let us know and we can discuss it on the Forum.

The Air Flotilla can go anywhere. Figure those Zeros helped to severely damage the CAF.



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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 9:01:52 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

In John's earlier post he talks about rebuilding those divisions, if I remember correctly it will take a bit of supply to do that. If Burma's supply is rebuilding troops, will there be enough supply on hand to do that. Your right about getting shipping into Rangoon, its almost impossible unless you want to run a convoy with carrier support. Even that runs the risk of losing ships with diminishing returns.


Remember that Indomitable and Hermes are available at Columbo Day ONE of the war!


I know, I lost them both trying to force a convoy through to Rangoon

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RE: JFB Beware - 11/4/2011 9:53:34 PM   
John 3rd


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COOL! (Sorry: I am, after all, a JFB)

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RE: IJN Troops - 11/5/2011 1:06:07 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

The question I have is who has priority next? FatR: Are you in a position to seriously work on the Fleet or should Kfsgo have the files to work on China while both you and I use the Forum Threads to iron out during the war choices and decisions?

I think I can work on the fleet slowly - Kfsgo's and mine spheres do not intersect, so he can do whatever he needs, while I'll restrict myself to changing ships and ship classes files only.

Also, a preliminary note about the air side... Unless devs are going to change night air combat model, I'm more and more inclined to think that either a mandatory houserule against 4Es on night attacks, except against Home Islands cities, or a nerf to their defensive armament is needed. In both of my games Japanese enjoy daylight parity or superiority at the moment, but suffer extreme A2A losses when combatting consequent night bomber raids. Literally to the point of airgroups being wiped out. For example, an extreme case:


One squadron of Liberators did that over two days, with minor help from other bombers.
Here I was forced to cover an outlying airfield (Ceilon) with fighters that had long ferry range, but Tojos and Zeros really die almost as easily, and Nicks eventually get wiped out by a persistent effort.

Of course, an ideal solution will be to penaltize bombers' defensive fire as much as fighter's fire is penaltized at night...


Attachment (1)

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RE: JFB Beware - 11/5/2011 1:48:23 PM   
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Speaking of aircraft again, a preliminary note.

Following planes are left without no engines (even counting attempted but not mass-produced alternatives) if the proposed concentration of engine design at Mitshubishi in 1939 is carried out:

Ki-43,Ki-44,Ki-45,Ki-48,Ki-49,Ki-94-II,J1N.

Of these at least Ki-43 and Ki-44 certainly need complete fuselage redesign and upscaling to accept larger alternative engines.

Ki-67 or equivalent is likely to be severely delayed until a next-gen engine is available.

Ki-84 technically has alternatives, either Ha-33 (used on flyable prototypes of Ki-116) or DB-601 derivatives (proto-84 used this, the project never left the blueprints stage). However, Ki-84 was primarily the successor to Ki-43, with simplicity of converting the production lines from the latter being one of the main considerations in its design. So if Ki-43 falls into oblivion, Ki-84 will follow.

Feel free to correct me if I forget anything.

On a somewhat brighter note, B6N and P1Y are issued reliable engines from the beginning. B6N is likely to appear on the frontlines earlier. Not sure about P1Y, though. One of the main problem with it was the Navy's brass not being sure if it is even needed, and it will only get worse if it will use the same engines as G4M.

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Post #: 549
RE: AFB Beware - 11/5/2011 2:51:49 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Last work for the day is the counter move to the British Build-up in Malaya. Given excellent pre-war Japanese intelligence, they realize that Malaya will be more difficult so they move some of their starting ID around to reflect changes and potential issues:

1. 33rd ID starts at Battambang
2. 4th and 21st start in Samah

Fleet Modifications:
1. TF 14 (CL and 5DD) start at Truk so there is some naval presence there at start.
2. MASSIVE SS change along the lines of RA. Gone is the massive concentration around PH. Groups of 3-5 Japanese SS start at or near various locations (Palmyra, Johnston, West Coast, Java Sea, Malacca, Sulu Sea, etc...). A total of 39 Boats are shifted from their normal starting positions.

Enough for today. Got errands to run.


I strongly advise against doing any changes to the fleet disposition at the moment. Remember, lots of ships will be adeed, erased, rewritten... most of subs included. You'll need to redo this later.

Also, I believe we still lack most of needed art for the fleet. I can put up a list later, if there are volunteers. If there aren't, I'm willing to try learning how to draw shipsides. Can anyone recommed the best tool for that?

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/5/2011 10:05:34 PM   
Terminus


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Let's see the list.

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/5/2011 10:40:38 PM   
John 3rd


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OK. Good.

FatR and kfsgo: Do not do anything to your files. I have a little more work (like where the Canadians end up) and I can step back and let you guys work while I look at other things. Should have my work done on Monday and will then send the files. As long as you stay in your areas (China/Navy--Air) we should have no file issues.

Am excited to see more stuff get done!


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RE: AFB Beware - 11/7/2011 3:12:59 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Let's see the list.


Battleships: we have what we need, courtesy of JuanG's and his Enhanced mods.

Carriers: we probably have what we need, improved Shokaku class art can be taken from Scen 70. The only exception maybe is enlarged alternative Ryujo, which might have a bridge tower.

Heavy cruisers: no art for Niitaka-class CAs. Again, they should look like this:



1-st class DDs: we really need several pieces of art.

1)Modified Hatsuharu, with open mounts instead of enclosed turrets.
2)Modified Akizuki. Actually resembling Yugumos, but with three more modern turrets, probably resebling those on RL Akizuki class.
3)Modified Matsu/Tachibana. Semi-enclosed twin gun mounts on both bow and stern should be the most distinctive feature.

Turrets on Shiratsuyus, Asashios, Kageros and Yugumos should probably more resemble RL 127/40 turrets, but in a pinch we can use the old art.


As about 2-nd class DDs and light cruiser reconstructions - at the moment I'm PMing people whose alternatives from Russian forums heavily influenced my proposals if we can use their art. In case of a positive answer, I'll post a list with ship art appended.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by FatR -- 11/7/2011 3:13:12 PM >


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Artwork Needed - 11/7/2011 3:18:31 PM   
John 3rd


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FatR: I'll have the files sent to you and kfsgo today.


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RE: Artwork Needed - 11/7/2011 7:52:45 PM   
John 3rd


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Files sent and now in the hands of our other good designers!


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RE: Artwork Needed - 11/9/2011 12:24:00 AM   
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That may be pushing it a bit...

I am kind-of-sort-of mostly (but not entirely) 'done' with China. Work so far:

- NCPC (Beijing Govt) forces are larger than usual and actually vaguely competent; figure the Japanese have been nice to them, I guess.
- RGC (Nanjing Govt) forces are not all present at game start but trickle in through 1942; they're less competent than usual. I'm not sure how...I wouldn't let them near anything that isn't padded, personally.
- Japanese units are "redistributed"; 11th Army is at Nanjing and can yomp upriver if it wants to, 13th is loitering at Shanghai, 23rd is along the coast, 1st and 12th are up north. Shouldn't be any day 2 disasters for anyone, anyway. I moved the Tank/Mech Divs to Manchuria - they're a little silly, as a formation like that is really designed to whack Soviet equivalents; so, they're on the Russian border. Of course, the player can rail them down to China if the player wants to play that sort of game...
- Garrison requirements are up throughout China. It's difficult to be definite as to how this will impact things, but the Japanese will have to balance what they want to take versus what they can effectively garrison much more carefully than usual.
- There are new bases in a few locations to encourage armies to spread out a bit.
- Wuhan has gained a fair amount of industry (some new, some moved from Chungking) - there's certainly an incentive for Japan to try to take it. Shanghai has also gained some, though it starts off damaged.
- I haven't actually expanded the Chinese army much - there are a few new brigades, some tiny units designed to be irritating etc here and there but improvements are mostly in that they have a lower % of disabled devices overall.
- Exception to that - artillery - there are a fair bunch more 75mm guns kicking around, a few more 105mm pieces and also two new Rgts with Russian 122mm guns, though replacements for those don't show up until Dec.42 so probably best not used before that unless critically necessary.
- Chinese LCUs have been redistrubted and are now assigned to War Areas rather than Group Armies. Makes keeping track of everyone easier...I'll put up a map of where the zones are at some point.
- There are some 'river forts' with a few light (4in/12pdr/6pdr) CD guns along the Yangtze. Can't really simulate the river barrages properly, so it'll have to do.
- Bases along the upper Yangtze have gained small ports where appropriate. Requires pwhex edits before any ships can use them, of course...
- A significant proportion (~2/3rds) of the Chinese army is static - they never were big fans of the central govt telling them what to do, after all. New device 1339 'Provincial Militia' is replaced by device 1340 'KMT Cadres' at a rate of 3/month from April 1942. A large Chinese corps 'costs' about 5 cadres to activate, smaller units less. At that production rate ~60% of static units can be activated by 8/45 - the caveat is that the device isn't in any TOEs, so if the Japanese decide to take advantage of the units being static to destroy them they'll respawn mobile. A balancing act...it may work out and may not, we'll have to see.
- Red Army units have a small amount of intrinsic daily supply to allow them to get around in marginal-supply areas.
- Some Chinese units have collected bits of foreign equipment; units near the Indochina border have managed to acquire some French stuff, units on the road down from Alma-Ata have managed to acquire some Russian stuff, and there's assorted low-level kleptomania throughout the static provincial units. Once they're gone they're gone, though.

More later...

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RE: Artwork Needed - 11/9/2011 6:16:12 AM   
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Sounds wild-and-crazy. Cannot wait to see more!

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RE: Artwork Needed - 11/9/2011 4:42:07 PM   
John 3rd


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FatR: I have been thinking about mid-war Japanese aircraft and have several thoughts:

1. Do we go the route of RA with maximizing the A6 airframe?
2. Do we have the Japanese realize that the A6 cannot go much past the start of the war and the stake new production on the Jack (both land and carrier versions) with its arrival sometime in 1943?

In a 'perfect' situation what is the correct move?

Hmmm...


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RE: Artwork Needed - 11/10/2011 2:14:57 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Files sent and now in the hands of our other good designers!


Got 'em. Thanks. Will continue gradually working on the fleet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
FatR: I have been thinking about mid-war Japanese aircraft and have several thoughts:

1. Do we go the route of RA with maximizing the A6 airframe?
2. Do we have the Japanese realize that the A6 cannot go much past the start of the war and the stake new production on the Jack (both land and carrier versions) with its arrival sometime in 1943?

In a 'perfect' situation what is the correct move?


My thoughts:

1)Jack is sort of a failed concept. I note that it might be underrated in the game, and that Allied test pilot rated captured Jacks fairly highly (surprisingly, even view from the cockpit apparently wasn't poor in practice). It was a failure from the production/reliability standpoint. The problem of fitting a Ha-32 engine into a fighter's body wasn't solved satisfyingly. Also, it directly competed with A6M, dragging both planes back.

2)Japanese simply did not have enough skilled aircraft designers. Failure to keep the number of competing projects under control aggravated this problem. USA really were the only other country with similar numbers of concurrently produced plane designs during WW II. For second half of the war Japan had from 5 to 7 single-engined fighter designs in production simultaneously, only 2 of which had any sort of compatibility. By comparison, USSR, Germany and Britain produced 2 major families of single-engined fighters each for most of the war (although Germans tried to rush several types of jets into production late in the war, as an act of desperation). In a world, where the Japanese aircraft industry is organized rationally, this dilution of brainpower has to go. To achieve this, two measures are possible.

3)First, parallel Army and Navy projects meant to fill the same tactical niches have to go. Second, companies should be encouraged to concentrate on developing planes in their particular non-intersecting niches. Ideally:
Mitsubishi - all-purpose radial engine fighters and 2E level bombers.
Nakakima - interceptor radial engine fighters, torpedo bombers, 4E level bombers.
Kawasaki - inline engine fighters, 2E fighters/fighterbombers
Aichi - divebombers (D4Y, despite its designation, was developed in cooperation with Aichi and in large part by the same team that made D3A).
Kawanishi - seaplanes and flying boats, as RL

More on particulars later...

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/10/2011 7:09:36 PM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Heavy cruisers: no art for Niitaka-class CAs. Again, they should look like this:


JuanG's #0559 ticks most of the boxes, though it's rather long - you could probably trim this by a few frames or even use it as-is.


Modifying existing assets is pretty easy:

quote:


1)Modified Hatsuharu, with open mounts instead of enclosed turrets.




#



quote:


2)Modified Akizuki. Actually resembling Yugumos, but with three more modern turrets, probably resebling those on RL Akizuki class.




=



#



If you do use this, change the 'center' 25mm weapon slot to 'forward' I guess - the extra funnel would get in the way.

quote:


3)Modified Matsu/Tachibana. Semi-enclosed twin gun mounts on both bow and stern should be the most distinctive feature.





I notice class 1517 has DCs firing forwards at the moment - probably not important, but looks odd.



< Message edited by kfsgo -- 11/10/2011 7:17:24 PM >

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/11/2011 3:27:54 AM   
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Certainly like those!

I also got to thinking about your placement of the Mobile Army in Manchuria and that makes sense. The Japanese player can call it down if he feels so inclined to use it in China.


Stanislav: Concur with your Posting regarding specializing aircraft types for the research teams. Am curious as to how you will progress that.


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RE: AFB Beware - 11/13/2011 8:17:11 PM   
FatR

 

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Thanks for the excellent work, kfsgo!

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/14/2011 4:20:57 PM   
John 3rd


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Any progress guys?


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RE: AFB Beware - 11/14/2011 7:03:11 PM   
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I went backwards for a little while and am now going forward down a different road; I wasn't very happy with how China Mk. II was turning out so have wiped the Chinese OOB entirely and am building a new one at Div (rather than Corps) scale. Not a historical OOB per se except in scale but am distinguishing between CCP, KMT, Warlord, Provincial/Militia forces w/r/t who is mobile/who can cross borders/who gets first pick of equipment etc. End result should be an army similarly sized but more flexible and, offsetting its larger size somewhat, more brittle if forced to fight. Should be mostly done by Weds morning at this rate...

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/14/2011 8:48:53 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Any progress guys?


I hope to show the progress tomorrow...

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RE: AFB Beware - 11/15/2011 4:19:45 PM   
John 3rd


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Sounds good Gents.


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RE: AFB Beware - 11/15/2011 7:34:05 PM   
FatR

 

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I got answers from people I was talking above, Russian historians Eugen Pinak and Vladimir Sidorenko - they are okay with using their ship concepts/art for modding purposes (well, to be honest I already borrowed a number of ideas regarding IJN from them). I'll sort the needed art and post it tomorrow, hopefully.

One more note before continuing - I fell I'm not entirely confident in my knowledge of air combat's workings. I'm finding that mere testing miss a lot of things that can be discovered by a devious opponent (like bombers defensive fire being super effective in night combat, as noted above - I, when toying with Downfall, subscribed to the common logic of setting planes with weaker armament to night missions, while using your best-armed planes for them is actually more effective). So, feedback will be much appreciated.

That said, the air proposal part 1: our main fighter plane.

I must admit, I personally like Ki-43, and reading histories of a number of fighter sentais gives me a feeling this plane tends to be underrated. In game terms, it is also highly useful early on, when it can fly above any Allied fighter. However, both in AE and RL it is pretty much a dead end design that becomes inadequate very fast, thanks to impossibility of fitting more than a pair 12.7 MGs into it without completely screwing its stability. So, my engine proposal was already written with a way of justifying its elimination in mind.

Now, A6M is inferior to Ki-43 in some aspects, for example high-speed maneurability, or, later, protection. However it is far better at actually shooting down things, and has a room for improvement there. Also, A6M is available much earlier (Nakajima backed off from the new naval fighter competition, considering requirements impossible, and Ki-43 was built significantly later), which makes its adoption by the army when the need for a long-range fighter becomes obvious a bit more plausbile, at least if we assume a better Army/Navy cooperation. As a side note, A6M2 was initially adopted as a land fighter, with carrier operation equipment and folding wingtips only appearing later. Name it, say, Ki-41. Nakajima will be given the task of producing this design for the Army (most of A6Ms already were built on Nakajima factories in RL), as a compensation. And with Sakai being kept in production only for the sake of already-existing planes, they won't have an immediately avaiable alternative anyway.

Well, technically speaking, here our paths can diverge. Assuming cooperation levels closer to historical, Nakajima can start designing a Ki-43-like air superiority fighter based on Ha-33 here. This will eventually lead to a Frank Lite (in RL they tried to install Ha-33 engine on Ki-84 airframe late in the war, by the way). This is not ideal, though, as this fighter almost certainly will not be available at all by December 1941, and we will still have duplication of effort.

Note, that until about early 1943, maybe late 1942 in this alternative, Mitsubishi Kinsei has only around 100 more hps of max power compared to Nakajima Sakae, and initial examples of high-power Kinsei engines (used on Ki-46-III) suffered from unreliability. Serious advantage over Sakae will start to appear only later in the war. And speaking of powerplants - Mitsubishi Zuisei (Ha-31), the engine installed on Zero prototypes, was initially rejected for being underpowered, but by spring of 1941 it was heavily modified and actually exceeded the current version of Sakae in power. To illustrate, going from twin Zuisei 14s, more advanced than Zuisei 12, installed on A6M1, to twin Zuisei 21s, allowed Ki-46 Dinah gain 64 km/h of top speed. If we don't want to deviate too far from historical engine availability dates, we can start a war with A6M1s (about one hex less range than very fuel-effective Sakae, otherwise basically as A6M2), then replace them with the Ha-33-powered model A6M2a in autumn of 1942 (fuel tanks as on A6M3a to compensate for a more powerful engine, range on the same level as A6M1 at best, more speed, all-wing guns), then basically build successive designs along A6M5-A6M8 line, probably introducing improved protection and armament earlier than RL, due to more powerful engine to lift all that. Just one line of models this time. As about Ki-41/army Zeros, I'm inclined to keep them closely mirroring the development for the Navy. Not sure if Nakajima engineers have any ideas applicable to Zero or might be willing to share them (wing fuel tank racks in style of Ki-43 come to mind, but Zero has guns in roughly the same place).

No J2M this time as well. Production of 621 aircraft from December 1942 to the war's end is just not acceptable. Yes in the game it is possible to build throngs of them, but then we have to accept one of the two ahistoricalities - either give it only 612 km/h up until the end of war, or give it more realistic 650-670 km/h (results of tests by TAIC on 92 octane fuel, which was available to Japanese) and watch the Allied airforce burn due to facing thousands of Corsair equals, while Allies themselves still have quite limited numbers of such planes. I'd prefer not to. I vote for sacrificing it to allow us developing A7M as fast as possible again. Share the result with the Army again - although by that time IJAAF should have its own planes, relatively adequate for end-war scenarios (later on that), so it might be not strictly necessary. But with the assumed level of cooperation (and no Ki-84 anywhere), IJAAF will probably want this fighter (name it, say, Ki-82).

< Message edited by FatR -- 11/15/2011 7:37:02 PM >


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Post #: 567
RE: JFB Beware - 11/16/2011 10:37:56 PM   
FatR

 

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No comments or critique so far?

Okay, let's continue with the air proposal. Point #2 - early-war interceptor.

Well, first of all I should note that the idea of building dedicated interceptors in general is not very good. Narrow specialization generally wasn't the way to success with WWII fighters, particularly for the country that just didn't have enough planes in general. However, thankufully, in this case, keeping realistic pre-war Japanese mindset (distinctive "light" maneurable long-range fighter and "heavy" speedy short-range interceptor; this idea was repudiated on the next generation of planes designed, which combined both qualities) allows us to introduce a more modern figher to the Japanese air forces before 1944 or so. So, let's do it.

A brief overview of RL Japanese works in this field first. As you all know, both Navy and Army ordered an interceptor fighter separately in 1939. Both of those planes were light, tightly built around their respective engines, and had relatively short range. Nakajima designed Ki-44, powered by their Nakajima Ha-34 (Ha-109) engine, for IJAAF. While early Ki-44 had characteristics very similar to early FW-190 (although it appeared on the battlefield noticeably later), its engine quickly proved to be not powerful enough and have no room for further development. As a result, Ki-44 was lacking in armament and protection for most of its career (you might notice in the game that, while good against Allied fighters, it is not really better than Ki-43 in its intended role as a bomber interceptor...), and swiftly abandoned once Ki-84 entered service. Of IJAAF fighter types introduced before 1945 it was the least numerically significant.

Mitsubishi, meanwhile, built J2M around a modification of their Ha-32 (MK4 Kasei) engine, which eventually achieved far greater power than Ha-34 and allowed J2M to achieve speed on par with contemporary Allied fighters, while carrying passable armament and protection. Said modification was also the first Japanese engine to feature water-methanol injection, giving J2M good high altitude peformance, compared to other Japanese planes. However, as noted above, the engine was not coupled with the plane very successfully, attempts to minimize fuselage cross-section went too far and resulted in a highly unreliable, highly difficult to produce plane. Maybe it was possible to solve its teething troubles in timely manner if only Horikoshi's deisgn bureau was less overloaded by projects, but as noted above, it has more important things to do. Unlike Ki-44 J2M was never completely replaced by N1K-J, and kept in limited production because of its superior high altitude performance, but it was too rare to have a serious impact on the air war.

A few words about N1K-J is necessary too. Not really a dedicated interceptor, it ultimately achieved greater success and production numbers than J2M, despite being powered by notoriously unreliable Homare. One thing to note, though - its precedessor, amphibious N1K was actually powered by an earlier version of Kasei and, AFAIK, demonstrated no reliability problems, while displaying pretty high specs, for a floatplane. Of course, with its small production run and no real experience with operating from forward airbases, they might well remained hidden - Ki-84 seemed passably reliable when tested in Japan too, so N1K is not an ironclad proof of the possibility of installing Kasei on a fighter plane without troubles. This is definitely less of a stretch than many other assumptions we make for this mod, though. I also wonder, what could have been if N1K-J used advanced versions of Kasei, which were only marginally less powerful than Homares until Homare 21, while being, as far as I can tell, generally more reliable.

Anyway, this long talk about engines is meant to demonstrate my train of thought. The conclusion is, the pre-war interceptor design should be powered by Ha-32 engine, installed normally, without J2M-like tricks. Just accept bigger drag. The work of designing it probably should be given to Nakajima, as they have a capable and now-unoccupied design team. Placate them for having no choice but to use an engine of their competitor by promises of selling their plane both to IJAAF and IJNAF. Let's designate this "super-Tojo", say Ki-42/J3N. Proposed model lineup - the first planes in small test squadron at the beginning, production around 42/5, stats actually lower than Ki-44-IIa, because it is significantly bigger, but doesn't really have significantly engine power, maybe it even has less. Much lower if armament needs to match that of Zero. Possibly no Navy model at this stage, because this plane is unsatisfying. Around 43/3 the second model, powered by an improved Ha-32, similar to that installed on J2M, is introduced. Now we're talking. Service rating increases until the next model in late 43 - early 44 (problems with water-metanol injection will remain), but now we look at speed above 370 mph and great ceiling, coupled with armament of at least 2x20 + 2x12.7. As said above, in late 43-early 44 we get another model, again with SR 1 and perhaps 4x20 armament. Didn't think yet about late-war possibilities (which might include re-engining out "super-Tojo", or going straight for a Ki-87 equivalent).


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Post #: 568
RE: JFB Beware - 11/17/2011 11:55:13 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
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From: St.Petersburg, Russia
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Another, simper and, in all likelyhood, more realistic fighter alternative, requires eliminating infatuation with the idea of a separate interceptor, instead of assuming extremely tight IJAAF/IJNAF cooperation. Which is far more believable.

In this case, keep Ki-43, as it enters production before the wartime engine streamlining described above. Both J2M and Ki-44 do not exist. Mitsubishi's fighter design bureau proceeds to work on A7M early, and Nakajima's brainpower is directed towards creating Ki-43's immediate successor capable of meeting firepower and speed requirements, i.e., Ki-84's lookalike powered by Mitsubishi Kinsei engine (as, again, development of Nakajima's own engines is still forcibly stunted). While it will be slower than real Frank, maneurability and ceiling will be all higher, and service rating, while probably 2 for the first models, won't be as bad as on RL Frank. Also, this plane will be available in 1943.
Oh, and Shiden is still developed normally, but with Mitsubishi Ha-32 engine. In abscence of Jack, Mitsubishi probably won't mind handling its newest versions to another company.


< Message edited by FatR -- 11/17/2011 11:56:50 AM >


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Post #: 569
RE: JFB Beware - 11/17/2011 2:43:07 PM   
John 3rd


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Stanislav: Looks great. Have got thoughts but I've been waiting for others to comment to your proposals...

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