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RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/12/2011 2:33:46 AM

morganbj

Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline

Revrick, you're a piece of work.

And Canoerebel, ya gotta remember that a good number of Texans originally came from Tennessee and, yes, Georgia. We be of the same blood. Liars, .... er .... I mean, story tellers to a man.

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Post #: 91

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/12/2011 2:53:24 AM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Mosquto Bite is my euphamism for the community I live in in Galveston County. Sit outside in the evening anytime between April and October and you'll understand. (Being from Waco, you pobably understand already.) Hell, I've seen a swarm of 'em suck a full grown bull completely dry in thirty seconds. Nothin' but a pile of hide and bones. We have a lot of Confederate Airforce planes fly over from time to time. We can hear them coming for miles. Sadly, most often when we hear that sound of rotary piston engines and run outside to admire some old warbirds, we discover it's just the sound of the opening of human hunting season for those voracious little flying creatures.

And I'm not exaggerating ... well, not much.

Having grown up 30 minutes away from Shreveport, Louisiana, I can totally relate to this. Just think of the flying bugs in the movie "Starship Troopers!"

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Post #: 92

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/12/2011 4:14:36 PM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
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Germany here, despite Goverment "propaganda" that everything would be "fine"... most of the middle class here is in the downward movement, inlcuding me (meaning income, inflation etc.). I have stocked food for ca. 1 month�and some silver coins (ca. 150 troy ounces alltogether) however (and hope it might help to avoid the worst even if it is not much - Gold seems to expensive for low income gyus like me now).

This system will crumble eventually anyway question is only: When ? But I guess this is sloooow downturn so much people are not too much alerted as long they have bread and games (like in the roman times). Games would be football, television and oooops pc games also

�To keep the public diverted the newspaper still spill out good news like lower unemployment (but the statistics are manipulated) or higher GDP growth (which may still be true, but go down the next month for sure). In the end we tax payers will pay for all the debts of the banks and�the bankrupt�EU anyway. Unless there would be some kind of "revolution"

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 8/12/2011 4:16:34 PM >

(in reply to ilovestrategy)

Post #: 93

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/13/2011 6:28:41 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

Alpha77, what is the feeling generally in Germany about the goings-on in the eurozone's PIGS, and the fact that Germany is seemingly being asked to foot the bill to keep the European project on the rails? Don't want to get political here, but in the context of the OP's question would be interested to know what the average German thinks of all this.

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Post #: 94

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/13/2011 1:22:53 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Alpha77, I'd like to echo warspite1's request for your take on the "German situation". I'm hearing / reading more calls for the return of the DM-and they make good sense.

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Post #: 95

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/14/2011 8:15:24 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

"We're getting by"
"We're doing alright"
"We're blessed"
"None of your beeswax"

I'm in your "doing alright" bordering on "blessed" category thanks to my profession as a registered nurse and in part to my military retirement. I always thought my profession would be somewhat immune from economic fluctuations. People always get sick and need care, right?

Turns out that's not quite true. They still get sick but the changes to Medicare and Medicaid (America's national health care for geriatric and indigent populations) earlier this year are hitting health care facilities hard. Patients are being pushed out the door before they are ready in many cases. So census is down. That's forced major reductions in nursing hours. Fortunately I took a position as a nurse manager last May so now I am salaried... I can work all the hours I want for the same amount of pay!

My wife and I bought our dream retirement home a little over 2 years ago. We had waited nearly 5 years to buy because the housing prices were spiraling up out of control and we just couldn't afford to get what we wanted. Then the market crashed. We waited another year and then bought our dream home with 5 acres for 75K less than the asking price. We bought at what we thought was the bottom of the housing market. It wasn't. The house has lost nearly 30% of its value since then. That means every penny we put down has been lost and we now owe a bit more than what the house is worth. Despite the devaluation, our property taxes still went up $125 a month. Go figure. The good news is that this is the house we intend to live in until we die and we can afford the mortgage so we'll regain our equity and then some eventually but it looks like it will take a very long time to do so.

My wife's and my 401Ks have taken quite the beating in the past couple of years as well, especially the last 2 weeks. Financial stability in our retirement is no longer the sure thing it looked like a couple of years ago. Between our social security and my millitary retirement, we'll survive well enough but there doesn't look to be much room for fun things.

I still have 10 years to go to retirement so hopefully things will improve in the meantime.

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 8/14/2011 8:16:26 AM >

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Post #: 96

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/14/2011 12:20:59 PM

JohnDillworth

Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

I'm in your "doing alright" bordering on "blessed" category thanks to my profession as a registered nurse and in part to my military retirement. I always thought my profession would be somewhat immune from economic fluctuations. People always get sick and need care, right?

Hey Chez. Nurses rock. We know who keeps the medical system running. I'm in the Northeast and they are always in demand. If you would like a bit of perspective on your property taxes I'm paying about $650 a month on 1/4 of an acre. I get a lot for my money, but still..................

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Post #: 97

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/14/2011 12:47:54 PM

Miller

Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

What is the retirement age in the US? It was 65 in the UK but will rise to 66 in a few years time, and will probably be 68 by the time I am due

No wonder Greece is in such a mess when the retirement age was 50 not long ago.......

(in reply to JohnDillworth)

Post #: 98

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/14/2011 4:19:29 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Hi Miller,

There's different 'retirement' ages here. Classically, retirement from a company was at 62. 65 was also common.

Full social security retirement age is currently 67, will probably go up before I collect it as well (recipients can opt for collection-albeit at much reduced % value at 62 instead of waiting for 67). With SS, bonus additional recovery if one waits until 70 to claim.

For privately held 401Ks, (dunno about non-Roth IRAs) for example, one is required to start taking regular disbursements at age 70.5, but can take them penalty free at 59.5.

So, somewhere between 59.5 and 70.5-and everywhere in between-is recognized retirement age here.

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Post #: 99

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/14/2011 10:17:47 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

I am a Realtor. Need I say more....

My wife and I are both self employed and I am old enough to have been through a few downturns. We are wise enough to not live in debt and know how to turn things down when money is scare. Five years ago, I was beginning to feel like we did a pretty good job of preparing for retirement. We own two homes-one a vacation rental, and were slowly building up a small investment account. But we have no pensions to look forward to so that was it. Now, I am worried about retirement. We have pretty much accepted that we are going to have to work longer into our Golden years. I really do worry about the country and where it is headed. I think that the trend toward a concentration of wealth at the top and the erosion of the middle class is unhealthy for a democratic society. I know it sound sort of trite, but the backbone of our society is the middle class. Any sort of government that acts to erode the health of the middle class is bad government.

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Post #: 100

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/15/2011 1:19:19 AM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

There is an interesting scenario playing out in Weld County right now. We have a MASSIVE oil and gas boom affecting everything. My wife and I live in La Salle (about 1,500 people) on a double lot (officially .43 Acres) and we are now getting a pleasant little check every three months.

My wife's parents own the mineral rights to well over 120 acres West and NE of Greeley and they are FAT when it comes to this revenue currently. Their retirement doubled TWICE this year as they got their initial lease checks and % of sales. Kind of crazy how things can be so bad and then POOF: dollars appear!

It appears that I am moving into the Oil Industry for employment and am looking forward to it...

EDIT: Should also note that they are not putting a penny into the Market or their 401s.

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 8/15/2011 1:20:21 AM >

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Post #: 101

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/15/2011 7:42:32 AM

fcharton

Posts: 1112
Joined: 10/4/2010
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller
No wonder Greece is in such a mess when the retirement age was 50 not long ago.......

Are you sure of that?

Greece has the same legal retirement age as the UK (and Italy): men can claim their pensions at 65 and women at 60. Portugal, Ireland and Spain are a bit less generous (65 for all). France used to be better (60), but this is changing now. This "legal age" is the one when you can retire (except for some professions, the military being an extreme example). In practice, some people retire later because they started working late, and some get out of the work market earlier because they can't find jobs. The actual age when people stop working is between 61 and 64 for all in the EU, a little earlier for women than men.

Here's an official link (in french, sorry) first colum is the legal age, second one is the average retirement age.

http://www.touteleurope.eu/fr/actions/social/emploi-protection-sociale/presentation/comparatif-l-age-de-la-retraite-dans-l-ue.html

As you can see, the situation is much more homogeneous than we tend to believe.

One interesting aspect of the debt crisis is that, despite what the media love to repeat, debt levels are not correlated with the "socialisation" of the economy. Some countries with high taxes and high welfare (Nordics, the Netherlands and even Germany) are doing pretty well. Some countries with less welfare (US, UK) have high debt levels.

Another fun aspect (exemplified by your comment on Greece) is that it shows how little we know our neighbours...

I'm French, and own half of the company I work for. I won't be laid off, but I might sink with the ship... The situation here has been steadily deteriorating over the last 5-6 years. For us, the most difficult moments were around 2008, when client budgets got tighter, and some competitors, in bad shape, tried to fight a price war. We shrank the company, but managed to maintain our prices. Right now, the situation is fine, but one ironic lesson of the current crisis is that growth is not necessarily a good thing. Small and resilient firms, which do not try to grow and make profits, but just pay the wages and various dues, seem to do a lot better than bigger, capital funded, shops, that need to develop to keep the owner happy...

This year, for the first time in my working life, I took five weeks of holidays (hadn't taken any since 2007).

On the home front, we're doing fine. My two oldest are going to university (medicine and litterature) next year, but unis here are costless, and scholarships are relatively easy to get. For me, University will cost less than high school. Our largest expense is the house mortgage, but then, if the economy goes better, I will be able to afford it, and if it goes worse, inflation will set in (this is the only solution to the debt problem, I believe), and will alleviate the cost. Right now, I owe more my banker that he owes me, he can belly up for all I care...

Overall, the situation is not too bad. The media tell me that it will get much worse, since our economy will crash anytime soon. But then, the Economist and similar "experts" have been repeating that for the last 20 years.

One day, they'll have their "told you so' moment, and be right, but I'm not holding my breath...

Francois

< Message edited by fcharton -- 8/16/2011 8:16:34 PM >

(in reply to Miller)

Post #: 102

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/15/2011 1:34:03 PM

d0mbo

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline

Found the following article on the (very) rich participation in history. It may or may not interest you, but I found it fitting to this thread:

Article

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Post #: 103

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/16/2011 5:22:08 AM

zzodr

Posts: 178
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Found the following article on the (very) rich participation in history. It may or may not interest you, but I found it fitting to this thread:

Article

Thanks for posting this. The contents didn't surprise me at all but I was surprised to see who the author was.

Of course I'll believe this when I see it:
"Most wouldn�t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering"

I'm sure even if there was enough political will to suggest this it would be met with howls of outrage from the super rich. Screw the little guy.

Applies to Australia to, not just the US.

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Post #: 104

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/16/2011 12:57:07 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zzodr

quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Found the following article on the (very) rich participation in history. It may or may not interest you, but I found it fitting to this thread:

Article

Thanks for posting this. The contents didn't surprise me at all but I was surprised to see who the author was.

Of course I'll believe this when I see it:
"Most wouldn�t mind being told to pay more in taxes as well, particularly when so many of their fellow citizens are truly suffering"

I'm sure even if there was enough political will to suggest this it would be met with howls of outrage from the super rich. Screw the little guy.

Applies to Australia to, not just the US.

Let's back off of the politics if you don't want to lock this thread, please.

I'd prepared a big long diatribe to rebut the rest of your erroneous assumptions, but I've deleted it. Why dontcha PM me if you'd like to talk taxation philosophy, please. Let's keep Canoerebel's thread as apolitical as possible, shall we?

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Post #: 105

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/16/2011 2:13:20 PM

d0mbo

Posts: 592
Joined: 8/21/2009
From: Holland
Status: offline

My apologies, didn't want to derail this thread. Carry on.

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Post #: 106

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/16/2011 7:49:30 PM

John 3rd

Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline

Nice work to draw it back to center guys.

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Post #: 107

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/16/2011 9:07:07 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

I guess I have been an active "participant" in history this year.

My software QA job went to China in February, and I spent a bit over 4 months looking before I started my new job at the beginning of July. A little less salary, and not as good benefits, but we have the luxury of being a 2 income household again. My wife happened to be in the middle of a 12 month stretch where she was working 2 full time jobs when I lost mine, so we were better prepared to deal with my job "transition" than we ever had been. It has made for some very interesting times in our home, but we are a long way from suffering.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

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Post #: 108

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/16/2011 9:30:29 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
My wife happened to be in the middle of a 12 month stretch where she was working 2 full time jobs when I lost mine

That must have been difficult. I can't imagine what a stress that would be for a working professional...how long was she working 2 FT jobs like this, USS Mike?

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Post #: 109

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/17/2011 10:21:41 AM

aspqrz02

Posts: 1024
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Status: offline

Not in the US ... I was lucky (as I well and truly realise now!) to start teaching here in NSW in 1977 when Government School teachers still got a defined benefits superannuation scheme ... that is, regardless of what I pay into the scheme over my working life, at the end (assuming retirement at age 60) I get 60% of my averaged annual maximum salary for the last three years ... with regular cost of living increases after that. And, on top of that, those in my position also get a lump sum from additional govt mandated superannuation additional to the State Govt scheme which will probably fund a new car and o/s trip on retirement to boot.

According to the local Superannuation Industry that means that I will have considerably more than what is needed for a "comfortable" lifestyle in retirement (private health insurance, regularly eating out, regular movies/theater shows, regular o/s trips and so on) ... and, best of all, I have enough accumulated Long Service Leave to mean I can take a month off before Xmas this year and next year on half pay and then take a full year off, probably on full pay, sometime around May 2013, before retirement.

Our Union did some financial checking and found that the current generation of teachers who get only the govt. mandated 9% Superannuation, as an accumulation (i.e. affected by stockmarket) only scheme would need to get paid 18-20% more than someone like me at the same seniority (tops out at around Step 13 or so, theoretically less than 13 years for most employees, but complex) to have any hope of having the same retirement prospects as I (and others in the Old Scheme, as we call it) do.

Gets better

If I die within 10 years of retirement, my estate gets the difference between 10 years pension and whatever point I'm at when I die (doesn't help ME, of course, but nice for the family/heirs) ... but if I live *longer* than 10 years after retirement, which, based on family history, I am reasonably likely to do, I will have achieved something few people on this forum will be able to say ... I'll have screwed the government in a financial deal

That, and the news that our new "National Curriculum" in History has had implementation delayed till the year *after* I take terminal leave (and its a shocking abortion as it stands, hence the delay as more and more States realise just how unimplementable it is!) ... which makes me very, very happy. Not only won't I have to try and teach it, I won't even, in all likelihood, have to be involved in the preliminaries ... hooray!!!

And, overall (touch wood), things look reasonably rosy for Australians in general even in the current situation because our financial system and governments don't seem to have made the same mistakes that European and North American ones have (touch wood!).

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/17/2011 1:46:08 PM >

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Post #: 110

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/17/2011 2:10:08 PM

USSAmerica

Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
My wife happened to be in the middle of a 12 month stretch where she was working 2 full time jobs when I lost mine

That must have been difficult. I can't imagine what a stress that would be for a working professional...how long was she working 2 FT jobs like this, USS Mike?

She agreed to 2 one year contracts at 2 different veterinary emergency hospitals at the same time. It was very stressful, and physically exhausting, but she did it with a couple of clear financial/investing goals in mind. She completed the second contract in July, and our recent vacation was a rest, recovery, and reward for her.

BTW, I know you realize what type of work is involved for overnight and weekend emergency shifts, but to make it even harder she had a 1.5 hour drive each way to both hospitals. Loooooong days.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 111

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/17/2011 2:34:49 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Wow, that doesn't sound fun.

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Post #: 112

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/17/2011 2:35:52 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
...I was lucky (as I well and truly realise now!) to start teaching here in NSW in 1977...

I've been trying to figure out what NSW stands for all morning: North South West?

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Post #: 113

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/17/2011 3:00:31 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
...I was lucky (as I well and truly realise now!) to start teaching here in NSW in 1977...

I've been trying to figure out what NSW stands for all morning: North South West?

FYI -> New South Wales is a State in Australia. Sydney is the capital of N.S.W.

Can't think of anything pithy to say but to the O.P 2-1 (he'll know where I'm from and what I'm talking about)

[edit] And I'm now in Sth Korea because of the education system back home

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 8/17/2011 3:03:00 PM >

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Post #: 114

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/17/2011 9:18:42 PM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

I represent an electrical wholesaler. I have about thirty accounts. My package was worth just over six million in sales several years ago. It was worth three and a quarter last year. At fifty something I confess I've begun to rue various choices made, leave the army after eight years, leave college after one, leave night school after one semester, I fear Willy Loman syndrome as it were. My spirit as, as it is, remains ok though as I learn to make do with a new life style.
I am finding I may actually be happier with less. I am becoming a minimalist. You know, its not so bad.

ps For those of you lucky enough not to have to sell anything in todays market, I get a cut of a cut of the money. The man gets the lions share. the lioness share, the cubs share, the.......

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 8/17/2011 9:19:55 PM >

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Post #: 115

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 8/18/2011 5:51:01 AM

ChezDaJez

Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

I'm in your "doing alright" bordering on "blessed" category thanks to my profession as a registered nurse and in part to my military retirement. I always thought my profession would be somewhat immune from economic fluctuations. People always get sick and need care, right?

Hey Chez. Nurses rock. We know who keeps the medical system running. I'm in the Northeast and they are always in demand. If you would like a bit of perspective on your property taxes I'm paying about $650 a month on 1/4 of an acre. I get a lot for my money, but still..................

I really enjoy being a nurse. I work in a geriatric rehab unit so I see a lot of hip, leg and shoulder fractures and things like that. But it's a lot a fun working with the elderly, well most of them anyways!

I never got to know my grandparents on either side... my dad's parents didn't want anything to do with us after Mom divorced dear ole' dad and Mom's parents lived in England. So working in this environment is like having a dozen grandparents. Now I have my pick!

$650 a month in property taxes??? Whoa! I should stop complaining. Mine run about $4000 a year!

Chez

< Message edited by ChezDaJez -- 8/18/2011 5:58:18 AM >

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Post #: 116

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 10/4/2011 8:24:07 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

Bump. THis was an interesting thread in which forum members commented on their own experiences in dealing with the troubled economic times in which we've lived since 2007 or so. Since the last post in this thread about five weeks ago, the stock market has tumbled and economic signs have also taken on a sickly pallor. Things appear to be getting worse instead of better. The world economy is very shaky and sickly. To me, as as a quasi historian, this seems to be the most difficult economic environment since the Great Depression. I think there's a chance we will equal or exceed that traumatic period in history. That's a scary thought - because often time stress induces friction which induces fighting. It happens in marriages, where finances are a leading cause of marital unrest and divorce. It happens amongs nations, where economic trouble can lead to tensions that result in wars. I hope we aren't headed in that direction.

(in reply to ChezDaJez)

Post #: 117

RE: Participating in History (OT) - 10/4/2011 8:41:04 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

Yes, interesting financial times. Quite a bit of instability out there. It's important to keep in mind the adage that there's two sides to every (stock) trade. For those selling on the way down, there's someone else buying low. The contrarian in me says that there are some really good deals out there for those that have been shepherding their cash. Picking through the financial rubble of some broken stocks while prices are depressed can be a significant long-term good.

Company balance sheets (at least non-financial American ones) are pretty good, certainly better than in 2007-2008. It's unlikely that we'll have another Lehman-like collapse based upon financial malfeasance. Bank stress tests here were pretty good in ferreting out problem banks, resulting in recapitalization of many banks over the last two years.

The situation in Europe concerns me, but this too shall pass, I believe. Then again, I'm a hopeless optimist. Hey-what's the alternative? Stepping into the abyss? No thanks-I'll be (cautiously) optimistic.

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RE: Participating in History (OT) - 10/4/2011 9:00:39 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Can you be a contrarian and an optimist at the same time?

Interesting take on it, Chickenboy. Thanks for posting.

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RE: Participating in History (OT) - 10/4/2011 9:46:12 PM

Smeulders

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
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I'll probably be classified among the optimists as well, but to me the situation doesn't look too bad. Of course Greece is a huge liability and I'm a bit worried about that, but on a 'human' level everything is good. Me and my brothers just finished college with a range of different bachelors/masters, both my brothers found work easily and I've just started a PhD program with an assistant position that is paid nicely. Same story for my cousins, one finished college and signed a contract before he even had his diploma, another moved back from the UK, both he and his girlfriend had jobs within a month. There are going to be a lot more economic up and downs before I'll retire and don't have to care about the job market any more and if this is the worst down then life is very good (at least to me).

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