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A Scenario I'd like to see - 10/19/2002 5:44:22 AM   
D A Sharp

 

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I was a grunt in the Berlin Bde from 86 to 90 and would love to see how long I could keep the Berlin MDP intact - I think a defense of Berlin, breakout of Berlin, or defense and relief of Berlin would make interesting scenarios
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- 10/19/2002 8:10:31 AM   
Sabre21


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I agree DA...I was in 3ID at the same time and one of the contingincies was the relief of Berlin. I used to always say that Berlin was the worlds largest POW camp if war ever started:)

Sabre21

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- 10/19/2002 12:00:08 PM   
D A Sharp

 

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That is exactly what I would like to test out with a good game engine. Could the BBDE have succeded in it's mission - Would we have had to capitulate once the civilian population started to starve, Could we have fought our way out, Could we sneak away by squad at night, - All these questions have been in the back of my mind since my first wall patrol when our isolation in Berlin really sunk in. I like to think we could have held out as stubbornly as the Germans did in 45 - but would we, the Brits, and the French had the willpower to DIP? Thankfully we'll never know.

I was just an E5 in a line platoon when the wall came down, so my knowledge of plans above Company level were restricted. We did train on exfiltration techniques, rumor had it we were to link up with cav units upon our escape - this was just the rumor we all put faith in. One day I'd like to discover what the Brigade and higher plans actually were.

(in reply to D A Sharp)
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- 10/19/2002 3:51:15 PM   
Sabre21


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D A

I was a Cobra pilot at the time..a CW2. But I did a lot of the Threat training and intel work for my unit as an additional duty. I got access to a lot of interesting things back then not to mention attend an Intell course for a month designed for S-2's at Brigade level..talk about being a fish outta water. But I got to meet an interesting character, he was part of the USMLM team, a major then named Nicholson. The name might ring a bell..he was shot and killed a month later trying to get a pic of a T80. Pres Reagan posthumously promoted him to LTC.

But anyways...I knew the Germans in the 3ID sector would have attacked across the border to liberate East Germany and Berlin given the chance. I do believe it was one of the contingincies. The Soviet main thrust would have been up north across the plains into Northag...much better tank country. The US area was pretty hilly and heavily forested, I doubt they would have made it to Frankfurt using only conventional weapons.

Sabre21

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- 10/20/2002 3:06:55 AM   
D A Sharp

 

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Yes, Maj Nicholsons murder was fresh in our minds when I was in Berlin - Our Library was renamed in his honor - all those Potsdam Liason folks families lived in Berlin and we considered them part of our family. Whenever we (enlisted) were in a position to screw with a Russian liason team we would. Our Officers were too stiff to get in on the business. Once while in the Grunewald a sedan full of Russian officers came by our tracks so we lit them up with M2 blank fire - I think they thought it might be real fire as the noise and muzzle flases from the darkness of the woods caused them to nearly crash. An explantation that we were test firing our guns prior to a training mission (as per SOP) got the Brigade off our backs. I think that incident caused the Russians to complain up to the highest levels.

We also had a powerfull german contingent in Berlin in the form of the Berlin Polizei. Many of their people lived in Police baracks for ready deployment with their MPLs, G3s, MGs, and Mortars. They also had a limited supply of wheeled armored cars with cannon and MG armament. They were to fight alongside us in the event of war - I don't now recall their exact strength, but they were organized in Battalions and outnumbered the western allies forces garrisons in manpower. Training with them was rare and usually limited to them clearing civilians our of our AO. The lack of cooperative training was probably due to political concerns. The BBDE also had a battalion of Local National security forces - I have no idea what there function would have been in the event of war. They were armed with obsolescent US small arms.

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- 10/20/2002 3:29:01 AM   
Sabre21


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I love to hear stories like that one...Major Nicholson and i talked a lot about how things were over there. I got to know him fairly well, he had a lot of great stories. He was gonna try and pick me up a soviet gas mask for my Threat collection, but of course that never happened.

As for the German Polezei. If I remember right, due to the agrrement that took place when Berlin was initially subdivided, no W German troops were allowed to be stationed there. But of course they bent the rules as far as they could. I believe the Polezei garrison was around 20000. Plus they were probably the best trained urban warfare troops on the planet at the time.

Personally I never made it to Berlin, I really wish I had before the wall came down. Someday in the next few years I'm going to go back and drive all over the former E Germany. My stepson is over there near Bitburg in the AF. He's been married to a German now for around 6-7 years.

Have a nice weekend.

Andy

(in reply to D A Sharp)
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- 10/20/2002 3:55:51 AM   
D A Sharp

 

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Don't underestimate the Urban skills of the British and US forces in Berlin - 90% of our training time was dedicated to high intensity urban warfare, our TO&E was unique within the US Army for this purpose. We had the most sophisticated training facility on the planet. We cross trained at individual, squad, and platoon level with the Brits and french and in so doing broadened our playbook of usefull techniques. In no exercise in which visiting forces came to train against us did they ever prevail - we ate SF teams and Ranger companies for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The only major training distractor in our schedule was the parade season that happened once a year for about a month - much less wasted training there than when I was in the 101st sitting on my *** when on alert cycle. We were also benefited from a double budget - we got our US funding and the city also had to pay for occupation. We wanted for nothing when it came to training. If you needed to help a young soldier improve his marksmanship you only had to ask for a couple cases of ammo and then walk to the range for practise. If only the rest of the army were so fortunate.

Twice I trained groups of Polizei. Once was a warsaw pact small arms class in which we let them shoot AKMs, RPKs, RPDs, and SVDs over a week long course at one of their barracks (all done on an indoor range as they didn't have a proper rifle or MG range). The other class was a 3 day familiarization with the then new US weapons - the M16A2 and M249 - this was conducted at a US facility. If anything I'd rate the US and Brit teams as the best in city, followed by the Polizei, followed by the French (Most were conscripts who didn't seem to really want to be soldiers).

(in reply to D A Sharp)
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- 10/22/2002 5:58:56 AM   
IronManBeta


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In a super dense urban environment like that, how were you trained to fight? Minimal vehicle use would be a start, but were you trained to go up the buildings and shoot down or go underground and fight it out there? It would have been a completely different war from the rest of the campaign of course.

In WW2 didn't experienced infantry teams ignore the streets and just mousehole from building to building? You might reinforce a corner of a second floor at most for the height advantage, but mainly you stayed low and out of sight. Casualties were horrific for soldiers and civilians both. Canadians remember a successful but ghastly contest against a first class German division at a place called Ortona.... It still epitomizes the worst horrors of urban warfare for us.

The few references that I have seen indicate that the Soviets wanted to 'hug' Berlin with high value HQs and the like so that they would be safe from nuclear retaliation. The value of Berlin was as a hostage and no more. If the war was won it would simply drop into their lap without further ado. I have also only ever seen allied WP units used to screen it. Do either of you know just which divisions your most likely opponents would have been?

It just occured to me, didn't SPI do a game called 'Battle of Berlin' set in the 70s? I may have it somewhere...

Cheers, Rob.

(in reply to D A Sharp)
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- 10/22/2002 8:28:09 AM   
D A Sharp

 

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“In a super dense urban environment like that, how were you trained to fight?”

-Pull back to a defensible perimeter linked to the British and defend in place (DIP = Die in place). A linear defense would be arranged of strong-pointed buildings. In my Company’s sector there was a 100+ meter wide roadway to our front with 4 lanes of sunken road in the middle.

“Minimal vehicle use would be a start”

-The US had 17 each M60A3 tanks and 6 each M109s. These would have been used to retake lost positions (the minimum range of the M109s for indirect use made most of us line grunts believe they would be used in a direct fire role.) The three IN BNs each had a CSC Company with TOWs that would be removed from their M966s and positioned atop large buildings with fields of fire down any streets leading into our perimeter. BN mortars were 4.2” M106A2s, each Line Company had one Platoon w/M113s and a Mortar Platoon w/M125A2s, and the M113s were to be used for cas-evac and resupply behind our positions. Each BN also got a one SQD MP slice with M1026s. I think the BDE had 2 each CEVs, The ENs had a bunch of Earth moving equipment, and each BN also got an EN platoon slice.

“but were you trained to go up the buildings and shoot down or go underground and fight it out there? It would have been a completely different war from the rest of the campaign of course.”

-Rumor had it the building code required 1 to 2 meter thick reinforced concrete on the walls and ceilings of all 1st story buildings along our MDP – I don’t know if this was true, but the buildings were impressively solid, most with steel rolling door and window covers. Above us in the buildings would be our TOWs, FOs, and OPs – at ground and basement level is where the Line platoons would fight. Each weapon squad had 2 snipers (it may have been 4) that would have worked from the ground level fighting positions, the BN snipers during training often took high positions.

-Buildings would have been heavily fortified with ceiling and floor reinforcements, Huge sandbagged weapon and fighting positions designed to defend from both internal and external attack. All openings (internal and external) would have one or more wire mesh screens and a grenade sump. Floors above fighting positions would have been covered with 3 to 4 feet of sandbags (this on top of a thick concrete floor). Mouse holes would be made or blown for access and some parts of the buildings purposely rubbled. The average M60 MG position we built in training was over 6,000 sandbags! We were told that this type of fortification should prove proof against all but a direct FROG-7 hit (a scary thought). Buildings not fortified would be prepared for enemy denial using mines, booby traps, demolition charges, or prepared for firing (Fire and counter-fire operations belonged to the NBC Officer/NCO at BN level – each line BN had 2 flame-throwers)

-We had to consider the sewers and U-Bahn lines that went beneath us, all line squads practiced sewer movement but subway movement was not trained on. The water table in Berlin was very high and flooding was an option just as it was in WW2. Many avenues of approach would have been mined, booby-trapped, or fitted for demolition when most advantageous.

In WW2 didn't experienced infantry teams ignore the streets and just mousehole from building to building?

-Blowing mouseholes or to put it another way – avoiding street, doors, and windows- was SOP. SOPs called for fighting from top down avoiding doors, windows, and stairs. This is ordinance and explosives intensive so I think we would have been somewhat constrained in this regard, but a sandbag and 2 handgrenades would blow a man sized hole in many types of light walls found in the city.

“You might reinforce a corner of a second floor at most for the height advantage, but mainly you stayed low and out of sight.”

-Our companies had Dragons, but they were our secondary AT system in line platoons (Minimum arming distance was problematic). We used the 90mm recoilless rifle (2 per weapon squad) as out primary AT system. These have a serious backblast. They were usually deployed around corners outside of fortified buildings but we occasionally practiced preparing upper stories for 90mm use (required opening up the rear walls quite extensively). I have seen the Brits deploy Milans in Attics of tiled roofs (German tiled roofs are held together with wire clips that allow rapid removal of tiles from the roof to give the weapon some breathing room.

We were trained annually by SF explosives trainers in constructing pole charges and platter charges, and in breaching walls – once they even instructed us on the expedient use of mortar bombs as super grenades (similar in concept to Saving Private Ryan but different in execution)

“Casualties were horrific for soldiers and civilians both. Canadians remember a successful but ghastly contest against a first class German division at a place called Ortona.... It still epitomizes the worst horrors of urban warfare for us.”

-This would have been our Achilles’ heel and also probably also our saving grace. It was thought that the Russians wouldn’t want to destroy the industrial capacity of Berlin by destroying factories and killing skilled technicians. If anything we expected to be locked in a siege, this was good, as it would keep a sizable force from being available to fight in the west. I don’t think the Allied command in Berlin would have let civilians starve and I don’t think we could defend our perimeter while also holding off rioting civilians. We did have huge stockpiles of food. In any case it would have been ugly.

“The few references that I have seen indicate that the Soviets wanted to 'hug' Berlin with high value HQs and the like so that they would be safe from nuclear retaliation. The value of Berlin was as a hostage and no more.”

-This was one assessment that we were told as well, along with many others that were more horrific (nerve gassing of Allied barracks was what seemed both the most likely and least desirable to me personally).

“I have also only ever seen allied WP units used to screen it. Do either of you know just which divisions your most likely opponents would have been?”

-I may have some info on WP units garrisoned around Berlin but I would have to do some serous digging to find it. I have absolutely no insight as to any WP plans.

Keep in mind all my comments are those of an Infantry team and later Squad Leader – much of the information I got about our operational level plans came second and third hand so it may not be very credible. One thing is for sure though – given more than three days advance warning the US would have had a very stubborn defense established in Berlin. Given less than 2 days warning we would have been toast!

(in reply to D A Sharp)
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