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RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/21/2011 1:15:30 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
Joined: 1/1/2007
From: Laramie, Wyoming
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

Whenever a German player makes a mistake and the Russian player makes him pay its called great game play.
Whenever a Russian player makes a mistake and the German player makes him pay its called exploiting and the rules must be changed to help the russian play for his poor tactics


I think on this site there is some truth to this.


Only if one accepts that the converse also has some truth to it on this site.

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Post #: 91
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/21/2011 2:14:11 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Perhaps not so Michael; I have not played long enough past spring 42 to have a "learned opinion but it seem like most of the 1.05 xx changes should help the Axis, no?

Marquo

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Post #: 92
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/21/2011 3:22:15 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Don't get me wrong Mark. I try to maintain a balanced opinion on things. It just seems lately there is a bit more 'anti Axis' feeling out there. Probably due to the extra help the Axis get in 1.05.

There are plenty of things the Soviets can do to 'nullify' HQ BU as the game between Flav and Pel is showing. Just as I predicted. A strong Soviet defender can halt the mad dash to the factories. But I don't and have never held the drive for the factories philosophy. I play the more traditional penetrate/isolate/destroy and repeat as neccesary game when Axis. Just ask any of my opponents.

I enjoy playing both sides too.

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Post #: 93
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/21/2011 12:28:14 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Don't get me wrong Mark. I try to maintain a balanced opinion on things. It just seems lately there is a bit more 'anti Axis' feeling out there. Probably due to the extra help the Axis get in 1.05.


Agreed. It's also true that most heated discussions on the game have been prominently "Anti Soviet". Now we have a change. In both cases, "Anti Soviet" and "Anti Axis" discussions tend to be very short sighted and done on the basis on scant, debatable or ambiguous evidence.

I still think that removing the 1:1 -> 2:1 rule, for instance, from March onwards can have the quite unexpected result of lowering significantly Soviet losses and making attacks much more predictable, due to the removal of the ROF bonuses granted to Axis units. And these two things hardly work in the benefit of Axis interests.

What about forts? I think nobody has really realized how much more work is now to defend as the Axis in 1943. I'm going through the Spring 1943 as the German, and man, I'm finding really useful the abilities I acquired while playing the Soviet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
There are plenty of things the Soviets can do to 'nullify' HQ BU as the game between Flav and Pel is showing. Just as I predicted. A strong Soviet defender can halt the mad dash to the factories. But I don't and have never held the drive for the factories philosophy. I play the more traditional penetrate/isolate/destroy and repeat as neccesary game when Axis. Just ask any of my opponents.


And what about the Axis? Can they in 1944? Can you imagine what a savvy Soviet player can do, by building extra Tank Army HQ's in a Bagration-like scenario? Most vocal defenders of HQ Buildup "as it is" are assuming they'll be finishing up the Soviet Union in 1941 or 1942 the latest. A thing like this can be pulled up in 1942, with catastrophic consequences. What will they think when the same thing is done to them and lack the strategic depth - space, time, economy and ability to reinforce - to convert these pushes into "victories in the void"?



< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 9/21/2011 12:31:34 PM >

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Post #: 94
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/21/2011 11:10:27 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Well if I used it in 41/42 I wouldn't complain about my opponent using it in 43/44 or anytime for that matter. Right now I am most curious as to why the devs have not made any comment on this so called exploit. I am sure if it is a problem they will rub it out. Untill then I will happily go on using it. Why? Because even with its warts I still think it is neccesary for a player to prioritise his supply. At this point there is no other mechanism apart from HQ BU. And I will freely admit I don't see how I could defeat the Soviets without it. If HQ BU goes without a replacement system I would simply become a Soviet only player. Again, no problem with that either. I have plenty of other games I can play to get my Axis fix.

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Post #: 95
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/22/2011 3:07:25 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Mike,

One thing the Axis could do is not move or attack on fronts not critical to an attack. Many have posted about the unrealistic ability for the Soviets to attack all along the front in a sustained manner during the blizzard; but what about the myriad attacks the average Axis player does all along the front for the first 4 months of the game? Surely part of the logistical issue for the Axis stems form this behaviour? What do you think?

Marquo

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Post #: 96
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/22/2011 5:46:25 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The entire logistical system could do with a complete revamp. Will it happen? I don't know. I hope so. Meanwhile we just have to live with it. I would be happy to play with a house rule that limits HQ BU to Pz/Tank HQ's only. This would limit the the chaining mechanism.

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Post #: 97
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/22/2011 11:35:14 AM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Well if I used it in 41/42 I wouldn't complain about my opponent using it in 43/44 or anytime for that matter.


Fair enough.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Right now I am most curious as to why the devs have not made any comment on this so called exploit. I am sure if it is a problem they will rub it out. Untill then I will happily go on using it.


Because I don't consider it to be an "exploit", I don't think they consider it so either. Until they can say something concrete they'll just remain silent, as they have done in the past.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Why? Because even with its warts I still think it is neccesary for a player to prioritise his supply. At this point there is no other mechanism apart from HQ BU. And I will freely admit I don't see how I could defeat the Soviets without it. If HQ BU goes without a replacement system I would simply become a Soviet only player.


I actually agree with that Michael. I do think it's an essential feature of WitE, very much like fortifications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Again, no problem with that either. I have plenty of other games I can play to get my Axis fix.


I don't think you'll need to find a dealer elsewhere

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Post #: 98
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 9/23/2011 5:55:51 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The entire logistical system could do with a complete revamp. Will it happen? I don't know. I hope so. Meanwhile we just have to live with it. I would be happy to play with a house rule that limits HQ BU to Pz/Tank HQ's only. This would limit the the chaining mechanism.


That's actually a sensible house rule. The only problem I foresee is that the Soviet player doesn't "Get" any Tank HQs. You have to build them, and it's a little expensive. Maybe there is another way to build limits.



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Post #: 99
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 10/8/2011 3:11:58 PM   
Iota

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/5/2011
From: Europe
Status: offline 		I dont like the feature HQ-build up, though i just played the Axis so far.
Instead of HQ-build i would like to see new rules for Railroad Repair.


If the closest enemy hex is more than XX Hexes away from railhead:
- reduced Railroad Repair Cost (RRC)
- advanced Railroad Repair Value (RRV)
- higher MAXIMUM MOVEMENT POINTS (for FBD-units)
- A hex is eligible for FBD repair if the hex is within 4+X (Baltic 6+X) hexes of a railhead


But I dont know what this would mean to the soviets later in the game?

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Post #: 100
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 10/8/2011 4:19:13 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Keep HQ buildup and increase the costs of using it?

"I dislike rules that mandate actions by players, rather I like to craft rules
so that players find it in their best interest to do some action." Pround Monster Deluxe developer's notes.

Or find it in their best interest not to do it. But they should have the choice.

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Post #: 101
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 10/8/2011 5:19:29 PM   
Attack

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline 		I´m playing PBEM GC41 as German, and testing my own HQ build-up house rules. I´ll share my experience:

-"No more than 2 HQ build-ups in a single turn":
Ok, I never had enough AP to do more build-ups.

-"No HQ build up if this turn these units have been isolated".

My pzs were only a time isolated, it will be good to do an HQ build-up, but I understand that it will be an abuse of this capability. I really think that this home rule is necesary.

-"Not to change a division of HQ before to do an HQ build-up in this HQ.

This home rule was the more problematic to me. Sometimes I had a pz div near of another HQ, I´d like to do an HQ build-up, but it was forbiden.
I don´t like this home rule, is really stupid not to include a near unit in an HQ build-up, but may be it´s necesary to prevent chains of HQ build-ups. I don´t know, really, I need more experience.
May be will be better "a unit can´t receive HQ build-up two consecutive turns"

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Post #: 102
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/9/2011 6:19:44 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Ok, so I've read this post, but I still don't think I understand the mechanics of HQ Buildup chaining. Does it work like this?:

1. On turn 3, for example, you empty an HQ by assigning all of it's units to other HQs and perform a HQ BU with this HQ. Of course this HQ must be within 19 MPs of a railhead and can't move on this turn. This causes a massive amount of supplies to be stored in the HQ with no where to go.

2. On turn 4 you move the HQ forward (even beyond 19 MPs from a railhead) and attach panzer and motorized units to it.

3. On turn 5 the excess supplies in the HQ are disbursed to the panzer and motorized units, all of which end up with 45+ MPs.

Is this it? If not, what is the correct procedure?

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Post #: 103
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/9/2011 9:28:52 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Thats it. But its 20MP now for the limit.

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Post #: 104
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/9/2011 10:29:12 PM   
Attack

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline 		I´ll try to explain how to do a chain of HQ build up. There is an HQ (A) with some motorized or panzer divisions attached to it (a1, a2, a3, a4). And another HQ (B) with other motorized or panzer divisions attached (b1, b2, b3, b4).   Turn 1: The divisions a1-a4 move and attack, but before the end of the turn, they retreat within 5 hexes of HQ  A (A is within 20 hexes of a railhead), and they receive an HQ build-up. B1-b4 move and attack too, but they advance as long as possible. HQ B advances too at 25 hexes of a railhead. Turn 2: B1-b4 attack as they can, after this they retreat within 5 hexes of HQ B. HQ B is now within 20 hexes of the railhead (usually, a chain of HQ build-ups needs a rail line doubled). Then, b1-b4 receive an HQ build-up. A1-a4 can then advance at full speed, because they are at 100% fuel and because b1-b4 have breached the front. After this, HQ A advances till 25 hexes of the railhead. B1-b4 can retreat at 5 hexes of HQ A, or not. Turn 3: A1-a4 attack and push, after this they retreat within 5 hexes of HQ A.  HQ A is now within 20 hexes…. Then, a1-a4 receive an HQ build-up. B1-b4 then advance at full speed… This is the mechanism . You can do it even better changing  the HQs of the divisions, i.e. after combat you can assign  all the divisions to the HQ which will do the HQ build-up, and the moving HQ will be empty. Is now clear? Sorry, my English is not good. In my opinion, the Germans need to do some HQ build up, but the chain of HQ build ups is a gamey. And more, every HQ build-up will cost 1.000-1.300 trucks destroyed and 1.200-2.000 trucks damaged (more or less).

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Post #: 105
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/10/2011 12:32:35 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		While the game mechanics permit this, it is really quite an aberration. In this manner the Axis panzers never suffer from lack of supply and can perform in a sustained manner that is virtually unstoppable. There is absolutely no historical precedent for this. Further, how could cohesive command be maintained in a situation where the divsions are flipped into differetn corps with differetn commanders on a weekly basis. While I salute the players who figured this out, I really hope that the developers find a way to allow players to focus supplies in a manner more consistent with historical plausibility.

Marquo

(in reply to Attack)
Post #: 106
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/10/2011 12:46:31 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		This is not what I do Mark (what Attack explained), or near as much. I never waste time or fuel going backwards.

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Post #: 107
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/10/2011 1:31:48 AM   
mmarquo


Posts: 1376
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline 		Why not stop the charade and simply have mobile supply units and dumps. Using a blank HQ is the equivalent to having a mobile supply dump - and it is not HQ build up as described in the manual.


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Post #: 108
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/10/2011 3:33:38 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
quote:

Why not stop the charade and simply have mobile supply units and dumps. Using a blank HQ is the equivalent to having a mobile supply dump - and it is not HQ build up as described in the manual.



+1

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Post #: 109
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/13/2011 9:58:48 PM   
sven6345789

 

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline 		I would say let only those units get resupplied which are attached to an hq while hq buildup is hit. So no moving all units to another hq and later getting the advantage of hq buildup anyhow.

Basically you have to accept a tradeoff. No movement one turn followed by full movement the next.

Guess that is how devs meant this rule to be.

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Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943

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Post #: 110
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/13/2011 10:51:43 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		I personally have stopped using HQ"fuel dumps" and switching HQ after or before HQ build-ups.

There really is no need to. You just have to plan ahead and rotate corps.

Not really hard to do.

Marquo I have explained the chaining sytem to you in another thread, only about 1/3 of the units have 40+ MP's, 1/3 30 MP's and 1/3 20 MP's. Its not magic, your not cheating and your only using 1 HQ build-up per turn until your to far from the railheads at which point you will have to wait a 4 to 6 turns before beginning again.

1. The lower MP units attack first.
2. Then med MP range
3. Then fully fueled.
4. HQ 1 corps

The next turn.

1. The lower MP units attack first, they are at front and hit your first and secound line of defences
2. Then med MP range attack whats left of the secound line of defences.
3. Then fully fueled from the HQ build ups. They push through your 3rd line and possibly break through.
4. HQ 1 corps

The next turn. Now this is where the chain starts and you think he has never ending MP's

1. Ok now the units at the front have 40+ MP's because they still have allot of fuel from HQ build-up, so the mid range MP units attack the first line.
2. Now the corps that HQed up last turn attack 2nd because they are farthest front front easly smashing through your 3rd line.
3. Now the 40+ MP unit which were at the front exploit 20 to 25 hexs through the hole in your lines.
4. HQ 1 corps

AGS: At some point you out run railheads and have to stop. You can see my AAR's that at some point the big O in the south runs out of steam. Then about turn 14 or 15 its got one last burst before mud.

AGN: Never chains, just 1 build-up is needed in most games. Railheads are at front withen 4 turns anyways.

AGC: is a different animal MT has got working and I am just starting to work-on. M60 was the first game I tried it. As with all things the first time is a learning exp.



Its a very hard sytem to learn. I have tried teaching 4 poeple and they just cant get the hang of it, you have to be thinking 3 turns ahead and a skilled enemy can break the chain. The danger using the chain is if someone breaks it, you have lost 2 or even 3 turns depending on how far you are from railheads.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/13/2011 10:53:22 PM >

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Post #: 111
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/14/2011 8:43:44 PM   
Attack

 

Posts: 102
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline 		Pelton, I think this system is OK, if you don´t change units of HQ before build-up.

Only a doubt: How many build-ups do you do in a summer campaign? There is not problems with trucks after?

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Post #: 112
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/14/2011 9:20:38 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		There is a limit with trucks. You can only do so many HQBU's. Otherwise your regular supply network begins to degrade noticeably.

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Post #: 113
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/16/2011 1:55:15 PM   
horza66

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline 		What are the strategic consequences of using this rotating HQ to sustain offensive supply? Presumably it guarantees the taking of Moscow and Rostov as well as Leningrad, but does this lead inevitably to an VP-based auto-win in '42?

As a Soviet player I would also have no problem with having this inflicted on me, so long as I could respond in kind in '43-44. However I'm wondering whether a Robinsky in face of tireless panzers is actually effective in retaining a large enough Soviet army to survive a repeat in the '42 campaign.

Have the practitioners on the German side had a game go to '43 at all, or does the shock effect tend to make Soviet oppoenents give up long before then? Is a Robinsky with associated maximal factory evacuation an effective counter? Are there any other effective counters that might throw a spanner in the works of the constant panzer rotation?

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 114
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/16/2011 5:36:32 PM   
colberki

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 6/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think the HQ build up like random weather needs to be allowed to make for an interesting game. Just like AH old boardgame when the Axis could in some situations get two turns in a row. But this business of the mule HQ needs to be curbed - perhaps empty HQs cannot be build up or something like that.

I like it historical but some smart deisgn like the HQ build up makes for the unpredictable and tense and fun game!

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 115
RE: HQ Build-up / Reserve HQ tactics - 11/16/2011 11:59:55 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		The mule HQ doesn't really work that good, thats 1 or 2 reasons I stopped using it.

If you chain 3 turns then mule 1 turn your way way out infront of railheads and your screwed if the russian player counter attacks. Its not like a raid where you have a single units way out front you can save 75% of the time.

When you mule you have 3 to 6 divisions that will be out of supply for probably 3 turns. Its a huge risk vs a good russian you will pay for and basicly never recover.

Muling is stupid vs a good russian, vs a newbie yes you make him panic and game set match.

I stopped using it all together.

Switching I stopped, because I figured it get nerfed and I should get used to not doing now.

Muling is over rated. The supplies drain off so you can't fill it up and the use it 5 turns later. You use the supplys the next turn or your wasting your trucks.

The rules as they are, are very close to 95% as far as current testing is showing. We all need to play longer.

Devs did a great job.
Pelton
Pelton

(in reply to colberki)
Post #: 116
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