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Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/14/2011 4:23:20 AM   
MateDow


Posts: 218
Joined: 8/6/2002
Status: offline 		Is there a specific range that is used for determining the armor penetration of naval guns?

Using Big Gun (a naval gun estimator), I could figure out the penetration at various ranges. The manual refers to "maximum penetration" which I would say would be at a range of zero, but the data doesn't appear to be for that distance.

I am trying to add some guns for my own use, but don't want them to be overpowered (or underpowered) compared to the guns on the other ships.
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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/14/2011 4:31:56 AM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		Check out this thread, it may answer your questions.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2887820

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/14/2011 4:47:28 AM   
MateDow


Posts: 218
Joined: 8/6/2002
Status: offline 		It was an interesting thread, but they didn't say what range would be used if they were calculating values for a device in the game.

It did point out that I had just been using a standard US Class B for all of the adjustments rather than using Japanese armor. That might be something to consider. I'd been adjusting armor on older designs to that standard, but not the existing stock ships. Hmmm, something to think about.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/15/2011 6:31:35 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 906
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		I use vertical penetration values for 10kyds and 15kyds weighted 1:2 respectively, and then normalise those to fit the existing curve for weapons. I work all of my penetration values out vs Class A for ingame penetration values, and prefer to adjust armour values on ships to represent armour quality (and slope in AltWNT MkII) rather than mixing it into the penetration data. The game then works out suitable horizontal and vertical values from this, which is why its important to get the data somewhat inline with the existing stuff, as thats what I believe it was optimised for. You'd have to ask JWE for more, as I cant speak with any authority on how the program actually works, but this is my understanding of it.

Eventually Ill probably be putting up a large database of weapons Ive worked out this way and results for both weapons real and hypothetical as a reference for other modders who might be interested. This will likely happen later this autumn as I get stuff wrapped up on my own scenarios.

Also, regarding BigGun - while a fantastic device for working out rough ballistics and estimating MV and other values, I find its calculations regarding armour penetration to be rough at best, and downright strange at worst. I would suggest you take a look at FaceHard (http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/index_nathan.htm) or NAaB (Naval Armour and Ballistics - http://www.panzer-war.com/Naab/NAaB.html), which incorporates it, as these are generally more accurate.

< Message edited by JuanG -- 9/15/2011 6:39:36 PM >

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/15/2011 6:51:45 PM   
JWE

 

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Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		I do agree with JuanG that penetration values are a matter of preference. What we do for Babes is not what was done for stock. Have no idea what exactly was done for stock. Don't care really.

In Babes, Pen numbers were all taken from sequential runs of Nathan Oakuns program. Don't give a rat's a$$ what some other program says. Pen values put in the editor are evaluated at 5000m (yds) with a % pull for smaller bore weapons. This is what works within the game algorithm.

If all you care about is making your little "numbers" perfect, you can make them any value you please.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/15/2011 6:57:24 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MateDow

Is there a specific range that is used for determining the armor penetration of naval guns?

Using Big Gun (a naval gun estimator), I could figure out the penetration at various ranges. The manual refers to "maximum penetration" which I would say would be at a range of zero, but the data doesn't appear to be for that distance.

I am trying to add some guns for my own use, but don't want them to be overpowered (or underpowered) compared to the guns on the other ships.



Maximum penetration means exactly that vs a specific grade of target hardness. As your shell varies from a normal angle (90 degree angle)
penetration will decline. That is both a function of statistical luck of flight angle and also, often, of the way the target is built - armor being often sloped or angled to delibarately increast the effective thickness at likely angles of penetration.

Other factors are that the target often has other structural members acting as armor, but not classified as armor per se. The way structural members meet at what distance from the actual impact point may change the effective strength of that point. Armored ships often had special, multiple armored decks - designed to encourage the shell to detonate too soon - and for other reasons not related to shelling - so actual damage is very much like the model used in the game - a function of random numbers within a range. Also that the actual hardness of the armor on the real world target differs from the assumed (and probably defined and measured in tests) armor used for the table. Then too there is the material and construction of the shell. Finally - even for a given defined target material at a normal angle in actual tests - the data will very.

Nevertheless, penetration is relatively consistent. High velocity rifles are remarkably consistent - so for any given weight and type and shape of shell penetration is pretty much the same. But that is yet another variable - what about short guns? They won't be in the 2700 fps speed range - so they have less penetration at any given range. The biggest variable is target angle because of range - but that must be integrated with the specific target structure and any diviations imposed by imperfections in the firing tube and shell - to get the actual angle of penetration for a real shot. Then the details of the armor and structure at that point become critical.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/17/2011 9:56:39 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
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Status: offline 		Nathan Okun have the target steel quality in his formulas. Maybe you need to balance the British vs US one for allies.
I also think that using only the muzzle velocity(range zero) induces a bias to high velocity guns. Consistently when i was working in WITP-Mediterranean that would put the Italian guns way over British ones in penetration which added problem that Italian armor steel was good too.
So i would say averaging at 10kyds for big guns and maybe 5kyds for smaller ones then proportionally increase the penetration to a muzzle value penetration that game can accept.

There is also the issue of specific hvy weight projectiles.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/17/2011 10:52:33 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
Nathan Okun have the target steel quality in his formulas. Maybe you need to balance the British vs US one for allies.
I also think that using only the muzzle velocity(range zero) induces a bias to high velocity guns. Consistently when i was working in WITP-Mediterranean that would put the Italian guns way over British ones in penetration which added problem that Italian armor steel was good too.
So i would say averaging at 10kyds for big guns and maybe 5kyds for smaller ones then proportionally increase the penetration to a muzzle value penetration that game can accept.

There is also the issue of specific hvy weight projectiles.

Dili has the right idea. Given the game algorithm, what comes out of the mouth of the tube don't matter a whole lot. One must work backwards. Given how the algorithm reduces Pen as a function of range, one overlays the plots and finds a good range as a starting point. I use a very simple 5km (5k yds) for Babes. For my personal mod, I use a function related to caliber and sectional density. It's very close to stock, and extremely close to Babes, so it really isn't worth worrying about. Babes numbers, in-game, are as good as they get. The rest is just foreskin.

FyI, JuanG and I have been diddling back and forth with programs, and his NaAB program seems to work rather well within the parameters of Natan Oakun's FaceHard. Think NaAB has a better GUI than Big Gun, and is a bit more smarter; just MHO.

Forget any crap you hear on these boards about armor, or penetration, from me ,or anybody. None of us truly know squat, particularly Sid. If you really want to learn about penetration and the armour it has to penetrate and which the penetrational values are calculated against, and the math that's required to work it out, I beg you to spend a week or so at Nathan's articles at NavWeaps.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/18/2011 8:13:38 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		also....don't waste too many brain cells trying to come up with the 'ultimate' naval pen values for the game. With respect to John's and other's efforts, the game engine simply will never achieve tactical wargame quality in regards to such penetration vs. armor. It's alot better than in the old days (Uncommon valor ver 1) when 8 inch shells penetrated battleship deck armor at 10,000 yards and 5 inch shells penetrated 2nd generation heavy cruiser armor at 12k.....but the model still gives odd results, particularly in regards horizontal penetrations at longer ranges.

and in answer to Inquisitor's query... on another thread....no....the model does not factor in slope. If you want to do that you have to calculate the unsloped equivalent thickness into the editor. The model also doesn't attempt to distinguish between different armor qualities. I'd advise against attempting to do so. They tried that back in Steel Panthers WAW dev days and it initially was a fiasco.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/18/2011 8:27:46 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		I can add that the code does model decreasing penetration with range...
It does not match individual models of individual guns with slightly different muzzle velocities, shell weights, ballistic properties, and therefore trajectories (such as the difference in trajectory between a US 8"/55 Mark 12 gun with a 335lb shell - and a US 8"/55 Mark 9 gun with a 260 pound shell).

But I can attest that within some unknown parameters (unknown to me that is...) it does decrease penetration with range, and manipulates the chances of side or deck hits - with range.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

also....don't waste too many brain cells trying to come up with the 'ultimate' naval pen values for the game. With respect to John's and other's efforts, the game engine simply will never achieve tactical wargame quality in regards to such penetration vs. armor. It's alot better than in the old days (Uncommon valor ver 1) when 8 inch shells penetrated battleship deck armor at 10,000 yards and 5 inch shells penetrated 2nd generation heavy cruiser armor at 12k.....but the model still gives odd results, particularly in regards horizontal penetrations at longer ranges.

and in answer to Inquisitor's query... on another thread....no....the model does not factor in slope. If you want to do that you have to calculate the unsloped equivalent thickness into the editor. The model also doesn't attempt to distinguish between different armor qualities. I'd advise against attempting to do so. They tried that back in Steel Panthers WAW dev days and it initially was a fiasco.



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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/18/2011 8:39:04 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline 		Probably the best way to calculate the differences in plate (including slope) vs weapon penetration ....in game terms - is to use the actual plate thickness in mm in the data base, then match the gun penetration values using Nathan Okun's Armor Penetration Tables - using the EFF Effective Limit value, as this is the most demanding/lowest penetration calculation. Use each gun calculated to it's TARGETS data not vs it's own national data.
IE - Japanese guns vs US Plate, and US RN guns vs Japanese plate.

The reason I would NOT try to calculate plate thickness by obliquity angle - is because slope increases plate effectiveness and also decreases plate effectiveness depending upon angle and range of shot.
I don't think the game engine can handle that accurately ....IMHO


B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
and in answer to Inquisitor's query... on another thread....no....the model does not factor in slope. If you want to do that you have to calculate the unsloped equivalent thickness into the editor. The model also doesn't attempt to distinguish between different armor qualities. I'd advise against attempting to do so. They tried that back in Steel Panthers WAW dev days and it initially was a fiasco.



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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/19/2011 5:25:09 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		The game mechanism probably does a great job - since the designer loves die rolls - the ranges of effectiveness
probably at least are ball park -

so for the opposite reason I agree - just use normal angle (strait plate thickness in mm) and let the combat
resolution algorithm decide what the effects of range, angle, etc may be


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Post #: 12
RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 9/22/2011 4:34:53 PM   
MateDow


Posts: 218
Joined: 8/6/2002
Status: offline 		Thank y'all for all of the good information.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 6/12/2014 2:55:31 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Thanks everyone. I'll show all this to him.

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 6/12/2014 3:44:32 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Perhaps it was the lack of coffee that caused you to resurrect a 3 year old thread?

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 6/12/2014 4:21:06 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Never would of happened if he was a drone. GP

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RE: Naval Gun Armor Penetration - 6/13/2014 4:04:10 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		I bet it came up with Nagato armor issue.

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