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RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 9:44:10 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I cut that rail line without using any troops from AGC. And I play like a novice. It's too easy...


Of course, easy to do. However, the goal of the manuever is to break the Stalin Line to the east of Proskurov to facilitate the later turns. Switich a panzer corps allows this (and still keeps the relative level of forces in each front from turn 2 on...

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Post #: 151
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 9:54:18 PM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
But if you don't have a Lvov pocket, what is the chance of AGS trapping three Soviet armies near Uman, as happened in history?


Nobody ever answers the hard questions...



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Post #: 152
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 10:05:46 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
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From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
But if you don't have a Lvov pocket, what is the chance of AGS trapping three Soviet armies near Uman, as happened in history?


Nobody ever answers the hard questions...






It's already been answered, not directly though.

He might not get that one, gets several smaller ones, with a similar or greater effect.

_____________________________


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Post #: 153
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 10:17:05 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
(A failure to agree does not equal a circle. I am sure that opinions are being influenced beyond those expressed in the thread itself).


You're right. But this is a bit like the cat in the room with the Prussic (not Prussian but almost) acid pot. Is it alive? Is it dead?

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I am reminded of the Political Points system in WitP which really constrained all aspects of play. You needed to win battles and take or hold ground in order to remain viable as a military force, IIRC.


Note that we have Admin Points rather than Political Points, and they have a similar role (I'm no WitP:AE guru, the better informed, please, correct me if I'm wrong). Tying AP's to comparing current victory levels to some "historic standard", per turn, might be something really interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
An idea might be to have a series of optional strategic plans to choose from before Turn 1, hidden from the other side. The chosen strategy would determine the scenario setup (northern focus, central, southern, all three, random, etc. for the Axis. Hold the borders, hold Kiev, Uman and Smolensk until X date, or fall back in stages etc. for the Sovs). Once the game had started each player would be required to achieve the chosen strategy in phases by given dates, ending at 12/41 or suffer various penalties. From 01/42 anything goes.

This would require big changes and a number of alternate scenario setups, but for realism and replay-ability something along these lines is needed, no?


I like that. A certain WW1 "game" which will remain nameless scooped me because of giving at the start a choice between plans for the Entente/Central Powers.

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Post #: 154
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 10:30:58 PM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
But if you don't have a Lvov pocket, what is the chance of AGS trapping three Soviet armies near Uman, as happened in history?


Nobody ever answers the hard questions...





It's already been answered, not directly though.

He might not get that one, gets several smaller ones, with a similar or greater effect.




If that was true we wouldn't be having this discussion and every AAR that you read on the boards wouldn't start with a Lvov Pocket.

Nice try though.

< Message edited by Lava -- 9/24/2011 10:31:16 PM >

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 155
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 10:32:24 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


Posts: 1276
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From: Laramie, Wyoming
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
But if you don't have a Lvov pocket, what is the chance of AGS trapping three Soviet armies near Uman, as happened in history?


Nobody ever answers the hard questions...




It can be done, you have to play your opponent. If he gives you the pocket, do it - if he runs, pursue and pocket him later. I have made pockets inside the Ukraine before the Dnepr...up to 20 divisions...

_____________________________

"The torment of precautions often exceeds the dangers to be avoided. It is sometimes better to abandon one's self to destiny."

- Call me PDH

- WitE noob tester

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 156
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 11:00:53 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
If that was true we wouldn't be having this discussion and every AAR that you read on the boards wouldn't start with a Lvov Pocket.

Nice try though.


Are you serious? I guess you're not




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Post #: 157
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/24/2011 11:02:35 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Guys why are you using the word gambit? Have you played chess? There's no gambit at all in this Lvov thing: you don't sacrifice anything. The only sacrifice... er, the Soviet Southwestern Front...

Yes I've noticed this as well.It's definitely not a gambit.The day I see a genuine gambit I'll know that opening theory is getting serious.


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 158
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 12:38:58 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

gam·bitNoun/ˈgambit/


1. (in chess) An opening in which a player makes a sacrifice, typically of a pawn, for the sake of some compensating advantage.

2. A device, action, or opening remark, typically one entailing a degree of risk, that is calculated to gain an advantage






It is common knowledge in the wargaming world (at least in mine) that the use of the term 'gambit' in wargaming speak is related to the 2nd definition above.

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Post #: 159
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 12:42:04 AM   
Ketza


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When you play as Axis you just feel the absolute need to bag those Soviets and free up 11th army. You weigh every other option but nothing gives you the bang for your buck that a Lvow pocket gives you.

When you play as the Soviets and you open the first turn to find the Lvow pocket has not happened you feel as if you have been given a great gift.


Just a few random thoughts on the subject!

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 160
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 1:12:06 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

1. (in chess) An opening in which a player makes a sacrifice, typically of a pawn, for the sake of some compensating advantage.

2. A device, action, or opening remark, typically one entailing a degree of risk, that is calculated to gain an advantage

It is common knowledge in the wargaming world (at least in mine) that the use of the term 'gambit' in wargaming speak is related to the 2nd definition above.


Problem is... there's no risk at all. Ergo...

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Post #: 161
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:16:01 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

typically one entailing a degree of risk


Not all the definitions include this clause, and even then 'typical' means not always. Plus 'risk' is subjective.

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Post #: 162
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 3:06:33 AM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Are you serious?


Yea, when it comes to Operational Warfare I'm a fairly serious guy.

That is probably due to the fact that, while in the Navy, I was a designated Strike Warfare Planner, served with an operational Carrier Battle Group Staff as the Strike Warfare Specialist, and am a graduate from the Armed Forces Staff College and the Navy War College (with distinction). In my time I had a hand in shaping US military doctrine and spent somewhere around ten years of life studying warfare from a conceptual POV... boring stuff, though I must admit.

So yea, when I say from an Operational POV, I believe the game has some shortcomings in its portrayal of Operation Warfare, I think you can take that seriously.

I do like the game, FWIW, but engaging in pissing contests is just not my style.

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 163
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 5:25:23 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Well the thing about this Lvov pocket business that annoys me is that it forces a runaway.

SW Front can actually put up a good fight against AGS west of the Dnepr for quite a while absent the Lvov pocket. You do not in fact want to run away as the Soviet here, provided you actually had the forces available.

Don't believe me? Try the Kiev scenario.

So Axis players claiming that the pocket is a cure for Soviet runaways have this exactly wrong. The pocket largely removes the ability to fight a stubborn defense in the western ukraine. The early activation of the Romanians is also a significant factor. The Dnepr itself is being crossed around turn 6 in most of these games now. This is a fantastically accelerated advance.


Just because I am the only Axis player to ever make you run in AGS area does not mean the game is broken.

Hoooper and Kamil were able to fight forward in south and "control" me.

So "fixing" the Lvov pocket because your lack of a good counter to me is no reason to trash 1.05.

You should be open minded and think that your tactics in the south could possibly be unproductive? Hoooper did much better then you. Asking to nerf somthing because you cant figure out good tactics and others can is no excuse for nerfing something.

You might want to consider that someone esle tactics were better then yours.

The main problem with game now is there is NO REASON TO FIGHT.

The hole VP system needs to be burnt to ground, it sucks if your making a historical game.

Most Russians run for the Motherland and don't Fight for the Motherland.

1.05 balances the game, now give the Russians something to do other then run. If the Lvov pocket is Xed the German will and should never take more then 4 arm pts if the russian player has and IQ above -55. The German player should never get more then 2 mill kills unless the Russian player has and IQ over -10.

Most Russian players will simply do the Hill Billy tactics as they do now and run for the hills. Have a 10 million man army come Dec and rape the German army.

Duh how hard is that to figure out no play testing needed.

Again

German player does something non historical it must be nerfed.
Russian player does something non historical and its amazing.

Get off the Russian fanboy wagon and be balanced and open minded. Lol even I am open minded to nerfing HQ build-ups ect, but this must be coupled with nerfs in other areas to keep game balance.

1,05 balances the game, any moron can see nerfing Lvov will 100% put 1.05 in the ****ter and unbalance game.

This hole idea is stupid and a personal pet project.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 164
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 5:42:20 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
As a side note, factory evacuation shouldn't be allowed until turn 3 or possibly even turn 4. Doesn't matter here nor there that "most good Sovs" don't start evacuating their factories until turn 3, the fact is, they shouldn't have the option to begin with.


I think your ideas about routing are interesting, but I don't see the justification for the point above; again, is this somehow based on reality or simply another hack to balance the game?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/25/2011 5:49:05 AM >

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 165
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 5:57:36 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Again

German player does something non historical it must be nerfed.
Russian player does something non historical and its amazing.

Most Russian players will simply do the Hill Billy tactics as they do now and run for the hills. Have a 10 million man army come Dec and rape the German army.

1,05 balances the game, any moron can see nerfing Lvov will 100% put 1.05 in the ****ter and unbalance game.


I think you're the one who is saying that the Sovs should not be free to act ahistorically, or if they do, they should not get any benefit from it (ie, they should still have a weak army in 1942). I generally agree with your point that it is too easy for the Sovs to pull back, but under the current engine it is what it is, and its going to have gameplay consequences. And I think that any moron can see that if the game is so unbalanced without a huge pocket which never happened historically, then the game is a very poor representation of reality.

Finally, your comment about 1.05 balancing the game is a bit premature, since none of the AARs are past Turn 10 or whatever. I think it is obvious that its greatest effects will be felt in 1942, so I think we will have to wait and see the results of several AARs through the end of 1942.

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 166
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 6:48:31 AM   
Flaviusx


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Pelton, my obeservations aren't with regards to my game with you specifically. Point in fact, I'm pretty satisfied with how I'm doing in our game.

It's not all about you, believe it or not. I think this Lvov pocket business is hurting the game in general. Look at all the AARs going on right now.





< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 9/25/2011 6:49:30 AM >


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Post #: 167
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 11:34:59 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Are you serious?


Yea, when it comes to Operational Warfare I'm a fairly serious guy.

That is probably due to the fact that, while in the Navy, I was a designated Strike Warfare Planner, served with an operational Carrier Battle Group Staff as the Strike Warfare Specialist, and am a graduate from the Armed Forces Staff College and the Navy War College (with distinction). In my time I had a hand in shaping US military doctrine and spent somewhere around ten years of life studying warfare from a conceptual POV... boring stuff, though I must admit.

So yea, when I say from an Operational POV, I believe the game has some shortcomings in its portrayal of Operation Warfare, I think you can take that seriously.

I do like the game, FWIW, but engaging in pissing contests is just not my style.


I don't like either "pissing" contests. But I think you can admit that with all those smilies and saying "nobody answers the hard questions", you were actually looking for one. Now we got serious, and I welcome that :)

All this discussion about Klydon's opening - sorry Klydon, but it sounds really well - to make up for the Kiev pocket might make sense from an "abstract" perspective. But if one analyzes carefully results, losses - the totals and the rate the losses mount for each side - and the actual pace of the campaigns being fought, it doesn't. Actually, if one rather than looking on certain circumscribed historic events being repeated faithfully, looks for the historic trends, you can see them (and suffer them yourself).

I do agree with you that there's some aspect of operational warfare not being accounted for in current game mechanics. But while you proposed special case rules to "enforce" those discrete historic events happening - which were actually more "political" or "strategic" than "operational" -, jahn and myself advocate for generic mechanics of reaction which certainly do not guarantee the pocket, but will perhaps get the trends and the actual dynamics in a more "historical" direction.

The question is that the Axis or Soviet players are to be given guarantees on certain things happening no matter how bad the decisions they make are, or a fair chance of events similar to those that historically occured - in "structure" and "net overall effect" - if they make sound decisions and get the timing right.

So the bottom line for the tl;dr guys is: "Guaranteed to get historic effects" vs. "Fair chance to get plausible effects".

BTW, given your background I think you'll love the game the Harpoon 3 DB2000 guys are doing:

http://www.warfaresims.com/

It's really looking good.

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Post #: 168
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 12:18:53 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
So "fixing" the Lvov pocket because your lack of a good counter to me is no reason to trash 1.05. ... You might want to consider that someone esle tactics were better then yours.

...
German player does something non historical it must be nerfed.
Russian player does something non historical and its amazing.

Get off the Russian fanboy wagon and be balanced and open minded. Lol even I am open minded to nerfing HQ build-ups ect, but this must be coupled with nerfs in other areas to keep game balance.
1,05 balances the game, any moron can see nerfing Lvov will 100% put 1.05 in the ****ter and unbalance game.
This hole idea is stupid and a personal pet project.


(1.) The Lvov pocket has not tactics -- at least not for the Soviet side, it can never counter it, it is basically a free gift. So the tactics of the German player are not better, because there are non to compare to. Using the Klydon Opening only means (mis-)using a shortcoming in the game design, the turn length of the I-Go-U-Go system, that prevents reactions during "a full 7 days of operations". The Soviet side can have some tactics later to make the pocket last as long as possible and bind German units, but that is after the damage is done at no cost.
Imagine there were a comparable situation later in the game, maybe like a Soviet Stalingrad opening, where you cannot counter anything as German as see you forces cut off without a chance -- I am sure you'd be against that?

(2.) The general opinion, if my general impression from the posts above is right, that the Lvov pocket should not be impossible. But there should be some risk to it, or some way for the Russian player to at least have the feeling that the German side had to fight for it, or that he can delay it. In the present form, it feels purely ahistorical since is executed against the strongest of the 3 Soviet Fronts. Within 7 days they would have thrown something in the German way, even if it would only have ended as a speed bump.

The Lvov pocket is nice to have, but not if it comes without friction or risk. The chance of creating such a speed bump is lacking. For you info: I am not a Soviet Fanboy. Yet even I don't like the implausible, ashistorical taste. If there are balance issues later for AGS, then one should carefully elucidate the reasons for those. There may well be rational reasons why the progress of AGS historically just was possible due to mistakes made by the Russians, or certain bold moves by the Germans, that would have to be repeated by the players in game (see post above) -- which is unlikely with hindsight in your hand. In which case perhaps some artificial rules could be conceived to force this, like disallowing factory evac for the initial weeks, as suggested above. But then, you'd also open the way for introducing "Feste Plätze" rules to make sure you'll see Germans getting pocketed in 43-45, for sake of balance and historical accuracy.

Anyway, introducing one wrong skew at the beginning to fix the balance for the later part in the South, is likely to cause issues when trying to balance something else later, which then might need to be fixed again with something very artificial, until at some point everything is in balance, but has no longer to do with the War in Russia. In contrast to systematically getting things right for the right reason.

(3.) The German and Soviet sides both have a huge freedom in this game, the only difference being the withdrawal/unit formation/production features, which are another discussion. I don't think the goal is to give any side more chance to win, as you imply, whether by keeping something in game or adding anything that would favor one side. The goal of this discussion is to first above all get it right, while keeping some game balance.

Pelton, I don't think you need to be so nervous about this... The devs will get it right, it just may need time and a few more AARs to show them where the trend is going with the present changes. Perhaps even a few AARs that intentionally do not take the easy bait of the Lvov pocket to figure out whether it is truly needed, or whether players like PeeDeeAitch may be right that even more harm can be done without it.

< Message edited by janh -- 9/25/2011 12:22:30 PM >

(in reply to Peltonx)
Post #: 169
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 12:18:55 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

1. (in chess) An opening in which a player makes a sacrifice, typically of a pawn, for the sake of some compensating advantage.

2. A device, action, or opening remark, typically one entailing a degree of risk, that is calculated to gain an advantage

It is common knowledge in the wargaming world (at least in mine) that the use of the term 'gambit' in wargaming speak is related to the 2nd definition above.


Problem is... there's no risk at all. Ergo...


I don't agree. The risk is for how long and how many of your infantry divs going to be tied up containing & chomping on the Lvov pocket, and how many are used to advance in the wake of the advancing Panzers. How this problem is logisically allocated by the Axis players can greatly influence the whole operational plan of Barbarossa......

Mein Fuhrer...I can WALK!!





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Empire101 -- 9/25/2011 2:10:42 PM >


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
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Post #: 170
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 1:24:19 PM   
*Lava*


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
As a side note, factory evacuation shouldn't be allowed until turn 3 or possibly even turn 4. Doesn't matter here nor there that "most good Sovs" don't start evacuating their factories until turn 3, the fact is, they shouldn't have the option to begin with.


I think your ideas about routing are interesting, but I don't see the justification for the point above; again, is this somehow based on reality or simply another hack to balance the game?


My understanding is that the decision to move industries was made due to the collapse of the Sov army and its failure to effectively counter the German advance. It was a strategic decision based on operational failure.

By allowing the Sovs to move factories before the Operational conditions which sparked this Strategic decision occur, we put the cart before the horse.

Though it would appear on the face of it that this recommendation is some sort of "hack" as you say, I would ask that you put it in context with my remarks concerning routing units.

The way the game plays at present, the Axis player gets a big jump on the historical time line starting on Turn 1. Here we see, for example, not only the Lvov Pocket being created but also a Minsk pocket which actually occurred in week 2 of the campaign. In AGC, the Germans first created the Białystok pocket, and then following a failed Sov counterattack were able to create a fairly large Minsk pocket. We see, essentially the same situation in AGS. The Axis attack (aimed at Kiev) did achieve a breakthrough and was counterattacked. It was only after these efforts failed terribly that the true extent of the destruction of the Soviet Army became apparent to Stalin.

The problem, from an Operational standpoint, is that the Sov player understands from Day 1 what is going to happen in the subsequent weeks, thus removing any incentive for the Sov player to attempt to check the Axis advance, as did Stalin.

My thinking is that by changing the way routing units react, not only will the Axis advance be brought more in line with actual history (because he must expend movement points to push routers out of the way), but that the stakes become much greater for the Soviet player to try to counter the Axis thrusts in order to save routing units and to buy time to prevent the loss of production. Kiev, for example, is reachable in 3 turns. An Axis player who drives for Kiev while engaging in a general offensive will find, I believe, that a Uman type pocket will present itself, for no other reason that fatigued and dispirited Sov routed units (which should be moving not at full CV but more like half or less) will litter the Ukraine. Remember these guys were being ordered to stand and fight and when I see them fly off deep into the hinterland, I just cannot square that any sort of historical reality.

Overall, the game starts badly, in an operational sense. The Germans advance way too fast on the offensive and at the same time the Sovs move way to fast to the defensive as well. I believe that can be corrected and my personal feeling is that the problem lies in the routing mechanics of the game.

Cheers,

Ray (alias Lava)

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 171
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 1:46:31 PM   
bairdlander2


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How about an option to start the game  in week 2 with units placed where they were historically at week 2?That would satisfy both sides of this debate and eliminate the exploits as well as be more challenging to the Axis player.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 172
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:08:37 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

How about an option to start the game  in week 2 with units placed where they were historically at week 2?That would satisfy both sides of this debate and eliminate the exploits as well as be more challenging to the Axis player.


Again I have to disagree. Why is there an obession with players to try to chain the axis player to history, while allowing the Soviet player carte blanche in his movement/strategy. If you are suggesting the above then the Soviets have to 'chained' in a similar way to something that actually happened...a Stalin order of not one step back or there is a 10% chance that each time a soviet unit runs for the hills that their Corps Commander arouses the suspicion of Stalin and is executed/imprisoned ( with the imprision option, the Commander could be removed from play for x number of turns)

But to be frank, this thread is begining to grate on me. We seem to be going round in circles and not reaching any concensus.

< Message edited by Empire101 -- 9/25/2011 2:09:30 PM >


_____________________________

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but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
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(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 173
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:11:33 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

How about an option to start the game  in week 2 with units placed where they were historically at week 2?That would satisfy both sides of this debate and eliminate the exploits as well as be more challenging to the Axis player.


I'm making myself done with this thread because it's driving me crazy.

If you took this approach, all you would do is move to Week 2 the same situation. Different strategies will develop that will result in the same thing.

As long as 1 side gets to go first in any scenario where setup is fixed, the Axis will have the advantage of being able to know exactly what troops are where, and they can then devise a tactic that does maximum damage that the Soviets can't do anything about (by virtue of not moving first, an dd not being able to fix a setup).

Even if you gave 1 or both sides the ability to freely re-arrange units prior to whatever the first turn is, an optimal counter-strategy will emerge for every pre-game Soviet setup strategy.

I believe even if you divided the first turn in half, limiting everyone's movement by 50% and just inserting an extra turn, the same results would happen. The German, by virtue of his ability to move first, will figure out how to minimize the Soviet start position capabilities, and maximize his own.

That's why this thread is insane to me.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 174
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:13:48 PM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

How about an option to start the game  in week 2 with units placed where they were historically at week 2?That would satisfy both sides of this debate and eliminate the exploits as well as be more challenging to the Axis player.


Firstly, it isn't really a satisfactory solution to just move the game forward a turn because then there'll just be another 'optimum turn'. Secondly, it doesn't address the fundamental problem, which is that Soviet players have no reason to fight in any kind of psuedo-historic way that gives the German player a chance to achieve 1941 success (without using things like build-up).

The solution has to be some form of game mechanic that encourages the Soviet player to 'spend' some of his limitless manpower rather than just converve it as much as possible for winter. It also needs to deal with the problem of ahistorical early evacuation of factories, all while giving him some measure of freedom and choice and not railroading him.


As an off-the-cuff example, perhaps something like a national morale bonus in 1942 that can be gained by fighting forwards in 1941 (ie. the Soviet player can choose to sacrifice his 1941 army for a better 1942 army), with maybe a corresponding morale hit in 1942-winter '41 to represent the fact that nobody has stood and fought.

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 175
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:17:40 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
By allowing the Sovs to move factories before the Operational conditions which sparked this Strategic decision occur, we put the cart before the horse.


By "hack" I mean a change made purely for game balance reasons, without any apparent basis in history, reality, etc.

Interesting point about the factory evacs--at what point did the Sovs wake up to the fact that the war was not going well at all, and they had to evac all of their industry? Were there any pre-war plans as to how/under what circumstances this would be put into motion? Is it realistic to not allow factory evacs for the first month or so? Unfortunately, I don't know the answers to any of these questions, although I have assumed that the devs looked at these issues when determining how soon to allow factory evacs.

(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 176
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:20:23 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

My understanding is that the decision to move industries was made due to the collapse of the Sov army and its failure to effectively counter the German advance. It was a strategic decision based on operational failure.

By allowing the Sovs to move factories before the Operational conditions which sparked this Strategic decision occur, we put the cart before the horse.

Though it would appear on the face of it that this recommendation is some sort of "hack" as you say, I would ask that you put it in context with my remarks concerning routing units.

The way the game plays at present, the Axis player gets a big jump on the historical time line starting on Turn 1. Here we see, for example, not only the Lvov Pocket being created but also a Minsk pocket which actually occurred in week 2 of the campaign. In AGC, the Germans first created the Bia³ystok pocket, and then following a failed Sov counterattack were able to create a fairly large Minsk pocket. We see, essentially the same situation in AGS. The Axis attack (aimed at Kiev) did achieve a breakthrough and was counterattacked. It was only after these efforts failed terribly that the true extent of the destruction of the Soviet Army became apparent to Stalin.

The problem, from an Operational standpoint, is that the Sov player understands from Day 1 what is going to happen in the subsequent weeks, thus removing any incentive for the Sov player to attempt to check the Axis advance, as did Stalin.

My thinking is that by changing the way routing units react, not only will the Axis advance be brought more in line with actual history (because he must expend movement points to push routers out of the way), but that the stakes become much greater for the Soviet player to try to counter the Axis thrusts in order to save routing units and to buy time to prevent the loss of production. Kiev, for example, is reachable in 3 turns. An Axis player who drives for Kiev while engaging in a general offensive will find, I believe, that a Uman type pocket will present itself, for no other reason that fatigued and dispirited Sov routed units (which should be moving not at full CV but more like half or less) will litter the Ukraine. Remember these guys were being ordered to stand and fight and when I see them fly off deep into the hinterland, I just cannot square that any sort of historical reality.

Overall, the game starts badly, in an operational sense. The Germans advance way too fast on the offensive and at the same time the Sovs move way to fast to the defensive as well. I believe that can be corrected and my personal feeling is that the problem lies in the routing mechanics of the game.

Cheers,

Ray (alias Lava)


Good points raised in this post Lava, especially the point highlighted in bold, and changing the retreat priorities for routing units would become far more problematic to the Soviet and German players, creating as Lava has suggested, a more realistic start to the campaign.

I give it +1

_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to *Lava*)
Post #: 177
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:24:27 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Empire101

I don't agree. The risk is for how long and how many of your infantry divs going to be tied up containing & chomping on the Lvov pocket, and how many are used to advance in the wake of the advancing Panzers. How this problem is logisically allocated by the Axis players can greatly influence the whole operational plan of Barbarossa......

Mein Fuhrer...I can WALK!!


You can't have everything, sorry. To swallow the Red Army (a strategic objective) you will need to surround and then kill them. These troops will not advance. You like it or not, you cannot avoid it. That or you keep advancing leaving your enemies behind unmolested... The Wehrmacht would surrender by the autumn 1941.

A Lvov or Kiev (or Irkutsk or Vladivostok for that matter) pocket, it's irrelevant. You have to divert forces to devour them. It's yes or yes. So in fact no, they CAN'T walk

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(in reply to Empire101)
Post #: 178
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:26:02 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

By "hack" I mean a change made purely for game balance reasons, without any apparent basis in history, reality, etc.

Interesting point about the factory evacs--at what point did the Sovs wake up to the fact that the war was not going well at all, and they had to evac all of their industry? Were there any pre-war plans as to how/under what circumstances this would be put into motion? Is it realistic to not allow factory evacs for the first month or so? Unfortunately, I don't know the answers to any of these questions, although I have assumed that the devs looked at these issues when determining how soon to allow factory evacs.


Another valid point.... I think Stalin et al came to the decision to evacuate within the first 4 weeks of Barbarossa, but I'm struggling to find the exact date.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Heliodorus

I'm making myself done with this thread because it's driving me crazy.

If you took this approach, all you would do is move to Week 2 the same situation. Different strategies will develop that will result in the same thing.

As long as 1 side gets to go first in any scenario where setup is fixed, the Axis will have the advantage of being able to know exactly what troops are where, and they can then devise a tactic that does maximum damage that the Soviets can't do anything about (by virtue of not moving first, an dd not being able to fix a setup).

Even if you gave 1 or both sides the ability to freely re-arrange units prior to whatever the first turn is, an optimal counter-strategy will emerge for every pre-game Soviet setup strategy.

I believe even if you divided the first turn in half, limiting everyone's movement by 50% and just inserting an extra turn, the same results would happen. The German, by virtue of his ability to move first, will figure out how to minimize the Soviet start position capabilities, and maximize his own.

That's why this thread is insane to me.


I'm with you...I'm bailing out


< Message edited by Empire101 -- 9/25/2011 2:31:35 PM >


_____________________________

Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
- Michael Burleigh


(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 179
RE: Lvov Pocket exploit - Q for developers - 9/25/2011 2:32:09 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

(1.) The Lvov pocket has not tactics -- at least not for the Soviet side, it can never counter it, it is basically a free gift. So the tactics of the German player are not better, because there are non to compare to. Using the Klydon Opening only means (mis-)using a shortcoming in the game design, the turn length of the I-Go-U-Go system, that prevents reactions during "a full 7 days of operations". The Soviet side can have some tactics later to make the pocket last as long as possible and bind German units, but that is after the damage is done at no cost.
Imagine there were a comparable situation later in the game, maybe like a Soviet Stalingrad opening, where you cannot counter anything as German as see you forces cut off without a chance -- I am sure you'd be against that?



Actually, there is such a Stalingrad scenario in which the Russians move first. They will typically pocket the Stalingrad area.

I think those of us who worked to perfect good German openings would take issue with the "tactics are not better" part. Clearly there is a huge difference between a good German start and one that does not do a good job. The Germans are immediately behind and especially against a good Russian player, they are going to pay heavily and likely will never "make up" what they lost on turn 1 in terms of time and ability to inflict heavy damage on the Russian border armies. Giving a expert Russian player an unexpected 10 or 20 units is too juicy from their standpoint of view.

Once again, everyone seems to be just fine with the first turn drive on Minsk, which is through more heavy terrain than down south and is a further distance from the border than where the Germans are going in the south. AGS can't do that with what they start with. They must have help. The original German plan in the south was flawed from the start in its concept because of Hitler and the real clincher is the unavailability of over half of PG1's divisions on turn 1.

I hope the devs take a "go slow" approach and let the data sort itself out. I have seen too many games that have one side develop a strategy and the other side screams about it before they actually sit down and figure out a counter to it or at least a way to limit the damage. The Russians still have plenty to fight with in the south; they just can't stuff AGS like they historically did because AGS did not follow the original operational plan with just the forces that were assigned to them. There are trade offs in diverting forces and there are varients on what you do with the infantry as well, so it isn't a set piece strategy, but rather a general idea that has several ways to execute it although the concept is the same.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 180
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