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Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 12:03:19 AM

bigbaba1111

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hi all,

as a distant world basic version player and a big wing commander fan (espacialy the fantastic novels) i just have one question about the ROTS expansion.

i know that there are fighters and bombers in the game (other then in the basic version). now my qauestions are:

-can someone build big carriers with dozends of bomber and fighters and escorted by cruisers and destroyers and still win space battles? is relaying on carrier battlegroups as main strike force a way someone can go succesfully or do big battleships with escort outclass the carriers? my dream would be a game/mod based on wing commander with pure carrier battles in space.:)

-is it possible to relay on 2-3 fighter bases as main defense of cononial worlds?

-can fioghters attack system wide targets like pirates attacking a gas mining station of do they lack the range for this kind of long range CAP operations?

-and can someone post some pictures of up to date fighters and bombers and maybe a screenshot of the maximum number of fighters he is able to launch at the same place?

thanks.

Post #: 1

RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 5:40:17 AM

tjhkkr

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I have built bases that rely almost entirely on fighters...
From what I have seen, they are point defense... they are not going to warp to another part of the system... near as I can tell.

I do use modern fighters for pictures in my SW mod... BUT, I am still clearing out the trash to get it ready to upload... hope to be done next weekend.

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to bigbaba1111)

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 7:44:32 AM

J HG T

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From: Kiadia Prime
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Fighters/bombers come from hangar which is 50 points large module that you can put to any ship. There's no limit to their amount what I know.
- I have a habit of building ships with many hangars, some torpedoes/missiles and lots of engine/manouvering thrusters. "Dancing carriers" that can engage enemy at extreme ranges.
- Carriers are viable way of building fleets. They lose some of their power later in game when high-tech PDs come around, but can still cause some major destruction in certain situations.
- Fighters need to be close to their targets to be deployed. For example, if a pirate is attacking a gas-mining station a carrier must jump close to it to deploy the strikecraft. The operating range of strikecraft is still clearly supreme to all other weapons. Also, ships under attack from strikecraft usually divide part of their firepower to fending of attacking fighters and bombers.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 12:02:17 PM

Bingeling

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I have never payed too much attention to the fighters, but kept some bays around. Typically a single on destroyers, two on cruisers, and something more on capitals.

They are very nice against wildlife that can be a threat to a military ship at least until very high tech.

They are nice to catch runners. Pirate escorts can be hard to get hold of with a slowish ship. Not if it has a fighter bay. Also nice on stations against pesky smallish ships that pack a longer range weapon than the station.

And if you build two bays on your cruisers... and finally deploy 20 of them to attack a fleet. You notice that the opening salvo from the fighter of 40 fighter bays actually pack quite a punch

. By this time the fighter tech is usually quite good too.

I look forward to the carrier class. The fighter bay is quite some size. For instance cruisers are up close and personal (within own and enemy weapon range). There is no need to drag a fighter bay to that position. And running two kinds of cruisers/capitals is too annoying in the long run. I could of course make a custom max size escort with fighter bays, but imagine the pirates copying that one

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 8:20:50 PM

bigbaba

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thanks for the input so far.

i realy like the idea of building small escort carriers as system patrol crafts to defend mining stations and stuff like that against fast pirate ships.

it would be nice to have some late game impressions about the power of fighter groups in serious battles.

the last time i had fighters in a SF strategy game it was in master of orion 2. they were fun at the beginning but later in the game with all the "mass deathstar" fleets they became irrelevant and useless.

oh, and some screenshots of mass fighter attacks would be realy nice.:)

and happy new year tjhkkr.:)

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 8:40:15 PM

Bingeling

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I don't think I have a screen of a mass fighter attack, but fighters are small...

You can see a few on this image:

There are a few around the upper defensive base, and one can be seen lower central quite alone.

I think maybe this one got an exploding fighter left of the planet (and a few more in that area).

In general they are not very photogenic if you try to get a shot of a major battle. They are both shot down, and to small to be very visible.

As for escort carriers for protection, nice idea to bring the pain quickly after arriving (potentially quite a bit out of normal firing range). I can't see that I have noticed the need for them though. In general big guns do things quite efficiently. The main boon of fighters is mopping Kaltors (especially multiples).

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/1/2011 11:50:23 PM

Canute0

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I have won some games just with Fighters/Carrier tactic.
The only problem is, you can't control the fighter at your own.

Fighters are fast, they good decent firepower and got superior range.
Build fast carrier to say out of combat range, or build slow (but not to slow) ships with good Shield power.

quote:

i realy like the idea of building small escort carriers as system patrol crafts to defend mining stations and stuff like that against fast pirate ships.

Better you add 1 fighterbay to the mining station later, and 2-3 extra shields.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 12:14:42 AM

bigbaba

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good idea about the mining stations with a fighter "schwarm" on them.

by the way: do carriers and their fighter squadrons get experience to fight more effective over time?

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 2:36:43 AM

tjhkkr

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[and happy new year tjhkkr. :)]

You are most kind.

The torpedo craft are the best for taking down larger prey.
In SW, they were often used for (Tie Fighters) fleet defense, with other fighters having much more firepower... but over the short haul, the would not be able to take down a ship... (Think of the Millenium Falcon.)
In ST [Starfleet Battles], fighters were treated like helicopter gunships.

Distant Worlds is a happy mix between the two.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 8:13:16 AM

J HG T

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

good idea about the mining stations with a fighter "schwarm" on them.

by the way: do carriers and their fighter squadrons get experience to fight more effective over time?

- Fitting every mining station with hangars is quite neat strategy. I've taken it as a habit myself. Keeps those pesky pirates off for good.
The initial cost of the mining station may be higher, but it pays itself back when you don't have to replace it after every small pirate raid.

- No. ships in DW don't gain experience. Leader characters (including troop and fleet commanders), that are to be new feature in the coming Legends expansion, are supposed to gain exp. over time and gain new bonuses. More info about that is in the near future.

< Message edited by J HG T -- 10/2/2011 8:14:42 AM >

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 1:25:56 PM

randal7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

The torpedo craft are the best for taking down larger prey.

Is there a way I never noticed to specify which fighter type a carrier has? I thought it just assigned a mix of available varieties.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 5:04:29 PM

Canute0

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On default the Fighter bay produce a mix of all possible fighter types.
I think by default 2 fighter, 2 missiele bombers, 2 torp bomber.
When you dont reseach Missiele bomber, they just made 3 fighter 3 torp bomber.
And when you dont reseach Torpedo too, 6 fighter.

You can manual change it, but i think the Fightercommander replace them by his default production when any fighter got destroyed, and it is a pain to do it for every ship.

Normaly i try not to reseach the missile bomber, because they arn't nessesary for the Adv. Fighter bay reseach.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 5:35:28 PM

tjhkkr

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I have not noticed any tactical differences between missile bombers and torpedo bombers except perhaps range of weapons...

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 8:03:13 PM

bigbaba

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looking realy forward to buy DW legends with the individual commanders. immagine a carrier group with hunderts of fighters and some kind of "bull halsey in space" as commander would kick some butts.:)

< Message edited by bigbaba -- 10/2/2011 8:09:31 PM >

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 9:27:49 PM

tjhkkr

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If carriers can operate that way in the next game, it will certainly change tactics in a battle...

Battles could become multi-group contests... because the first thing I am going to do to a stand off carrier is to send a group to pummel it to oblivion it once his fighters engage my forces.
Sounds like the game will change in a fun way. :)

< Message edited by tjhkkr -- 10/2/2011 9:28:04 PM >

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/2/2011 10:07:54 PM

Bingeling

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Isn't fighters a lot of early punch, then they die as the battle goes on? They get destroyed by spaceport aoe blasts. Fighters kill fighters. Point defense kill fighters. Once that punch is given, the carrier could be gone (warp back somewhere to refuel).

My main boon is that the hangar bays don't have to take up room on the "up close and personal" ships. Of course, you can do that without the carrier class, but multiple different design (roles) in each class is a pain to manage. And I would not want the pirates to steal my carrier design and use as escorts.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 12:00:29 AM

bigbaba

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i realy hope we dont see more of this relativly brainless AOE weapons in the game. they are like a artillery strike in call of duty. they take no skill to fire and are quite deadly.

i realy would like to see a upgrade of the carrier concept of the first expansion. in the product info i saw a line about new carrier ships and would like a dev to explain it a little bit to us if its a advanced concept.

see it like the evolution of maritime warfare between WW1 and WW2 with the growing importance of aircraft carriers.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 2:12:57 AM

tjhkkr

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Isn't fighters a lot of early punch, then they die as the battle goes on? They get destroyed by spaceport aoe blasts. Fighters kill fighters. Point defense kill fighters. Once that punch is given, the carrier could be gone (warp back somewhere to refuel).
In modern warfare, that is correct because they carry a limited ordinance load.

i realy would like to see a upgrade of the carrier concept of the first expansion. in the product info i saw a line about new carrier ships and would like a dev to explain it a little bit to us if its a advanced concept.
See it like the evolution of maritime warfare between WW1 and WW2 with the growing importance of aircraft carriers.
Well aircraft are devastating because destructive power has surpassed defensive power. I wonder if that would be true in space... I should think a fighter could not deliver as much destructive power as a big ship because of size... And there would be a limit to the payload they could carry... and would their payload be equal to the shields of a large warship?
Just some questions for our imagination.

< Message edited by tjhkkr -- 10/3/2011 7:31:53 AM >

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 4:56:18 AM

bigbaba

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well, in some space combat games like wing commander there are bombers which have up to 2 high explosive torpedos. this weapons warheads can decode the phase shields and normaly 2-4 direct hits are enough to finish a fleet carrier. sounds easy but its far from that. the bombers have to deal with CAP, AA fire and anti-torpedo rockets and lasers to prevent that the torpedos hit their target. and because of all that sometimes they die like flies.

damnd maybe i should create a wing commander MOD when legends is out...for the waiting time rereading the WC novels again should do it..:)

would be just great when the player can decide to build a fleet with big guns or carriers (or a mix of both) and have succes both ways. most of the space strategy games suffer under a boreing late game space combat when one sort of ship/weapon is so damnd superior that everyone flies around with the same fleet.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 7:36:11 AM

tjhkkr

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I have not played WC...
But it sounds sort of like the classic Backfire Bomber versus U.S. Carrier defensive forces...
That was one of the beauties of the Star Fleet Battles series... you could devise fleets of your choosing focusing on one or more technology types...

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 8:13:49 AM

J HG T

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@bigbaba

I personally think that DW strikes relatively good balance between different weapons. If you can't match enemy technologically, just spam more lower tech ships and overwhelm them. Have done this several times when hostile AI empires have gotten hold of derelict ships before me. Quantity over quality is a good choice sometimes.

My personal experiences of strikecraft space combat are Freespace 2 and TIE fighter. Honestly, what else do you need? Freespace 2 is one of my fav games ever.
"We got company!" *Wing of Shivan Dragons jump in* Nice, challenge...

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 8:26:53 AM

Bingeling

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The "spam more ships" method surely has a limit in this game. More is not always better.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 2:41:44 PM

Shark7

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I used to put fighters on DDs and up, but if we are getting dedicated carriers, I will probably stop doing that and put more torpedos on my 'escort' type vessels.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 2:52:21 PM

Bingeling

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I have often used auto design and not moved too far away from that. It has tended to be a single on DD, and 2 on cruisers. 3 or 4 on capitals. With a special class, using that space for more shields/guns/torpedoes and to run a dedicated carrier vessel seems like a good idea. The carrier of a small fleet could also be useful to store a troop compartment or two to mop up poorly defended minor colonies, I have always thought those are a waste on a fighting ship too.

The carrier can be "stay away" and point defense focused.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 7:47:36 PM

bigbaba

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i would realy like to know what "dedicated carriers" exactly means. do the fighter bays for carriers take lesser room then 50? or what else?

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/3/2011 8:10:34 PM

Bingeling

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I think I saw something like:

(But I can't find where, but doubt I dream about DW as I have not played it for quite a while).

Carrier is a new ship class (like escort, frigate...).
They can be larger than normal building size limitations.
They need a certain percentage of fighter bays to be valid (like resupply ship has limitations).

Details remain to be seen.
Having a new ship class makes it easier to operate dedicated carriers, as multiple lines of designs in one class can be somewhat confusing.

Also, my simple logic says that if they add carriers, it is not unlikely that other enhancements may have come to fighters and their surroundings as well. At least the area has seen some focus.

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RE: Fighters and Carriers - 10/4/2011 12:31:55 AM

tjhkkr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
I think I saw something like:

(But I can't find where, but doubt I dream about DW as I have not played it for quite a while).

Carrier is a new ship class (like escort, frigate...).
They can be larger than normal building size limitations.
They need a certain percentage of fighter bays to be valid (like resupply ship has limitations).

Details remain to be seen.
Having a new ship class makes it easier to operate dedicated carriers, as multiple lines of designs in one class can be somewhat confusing.

Also, my simple logic says that if they add carriers, it is not unlikely that other enhancements may have come to fighters and their surroundings as well. At least the area has seen some focus.

That is interesting...

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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