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If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 7:11:54 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		What happens?

I'm just thinking ahead to when I start my first campaign game (PBEM).
I never wanted to bother with Japanese Prod in WitP (original), and I'm not really inclined now with AE.

So my question is, if you don't touch japanese production, what happens?
I understand you've got to move the resources and oil and stuff.

But if you don't touch anyting, do the factories produces "normal" amounts of replacement AC for the current models?
Or do you end up with 1000 Mitsu engines and plane types that all need Naks?
If you play with PDUs ~OFF~ will the factories upgrade in a timely manner to the new models?
What about ship building? If you don't tough production, will your ships still arrive in a nearly historic timeline?

Or do you HAVE to sit on the enima of tinkering with Japanese Production?

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

Post #: 1
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 7:21:44 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

What happens?

I'm just thinking ahead to when I start my first campaign game (PBEM).
I never wanted to bother with Japanese Prod in WitP (original), and I'm not really inclined now with AE.

So my question is, if you don't touch japanese production, what happens?
I understand you've got to move the resources and oil and stuff.

But if you don't touch anyting, do the factories produces "normal" amounts of replacement AC for the current models?
Or do you end up with 1000 Mitsu engines and plane types that all need Naks?
If you play with PDUs ~OFF~ will the factories upgrade in a timely manner to the new models?
What about ship building? If you don't tough production, will your ships still arrive in a nearly historic timeline?

Or do you HAVE to sit on the enima of tinkering with Japanese Production?

-F-


I believe not managing the factories eventually destroys your economy.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 2
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 7:22:07 PM   
plund

 

Posts: 72
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		IIRC you absolutely have to turn on some Kate production as the GC starts with a rate of zero.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 3
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 7:47:37 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		The lack of Kates is the big one. In addition, You'll produce obsolete models such as the Nate and Ida, to mention a couple. You have to manage the Japanese economy or you're doomed much earlier than history.

_____________________________


Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to plund)
Post #: 4
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 8:36:32 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		If you don't want to run your production, go allied.. it is your only hope for a fun game

EDIT: I am one of the geeks who likes the minigame "production"... I have spend countless hours trying to find a good path to standardise my aircraft and engine production....

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 10/17/2011 8:39:33 PM >

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 5
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 8:40:42 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Ok, good info.

So on the heels of that...

What if there was a mod that offered "static" Japanese production such as airframe replacements etc (similar to Allied), and/or ship production (as Allies). Would that even be do-able? Would it be playable? Obvioulsy, the only point of the facilities then would be to bomb them for points.

I guess a major flaw would be that also frees-up the Japanese merchant fleet and escorts from having to haul materials for production, so it would require some kind adjustment there. You don't want to just remove or lock the ships down - because they also serve as targets and vps.

I'm just trying to see if there's a way to come up with a "Japanese (Minimal) Proudction for Dummies" scenario.

I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 6
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 9:37:47 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If you don't want to run your production, go allied.. it is your only hope for a fun game

EDIT: I am one of the geeks who likes the minigame "production"... I have spend countless hours trying to find a good path to standardise my aircraft and engine production....


and here i thought the reason i keep losing as Japan was because of my military skills. In reality it was my skills as an economic planner that tripped me up.


_____________________________


(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 7
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 9:59:24 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

If you don't want to run your production, go allied.. it is your only hope for a fun game

EDIT: I am one of the geeks who likes the minigame "production"... I have spend countless hours trying to find a good path to standardise my aircraft and engine production....


and here i thought the reason i keep losing as Japan was because of my military skills. In reality it was my skills as an economic planner that tripped me up.


My recruits are really happy with all the shiny planes I am producing but that never lasts... I regularly forget to set escorts for my flying aviaton fuel bombs (AKA G4Ms...) because I am obsessing with production figures...

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 8
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 10:29:43 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Ok, good info.

So on the heels of that...


I'm just trying to see if there's a way to come up with a "Japanese (Minimal) Proudction for Dummies" scenario.

I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.

-F-

I'm in the process of doing a few things but they might not come to fruition in the timeframe you want.
1. Making the GC scenario basically set up for Japanese production from the get-go. The problem is convoys which can't be made CS. I was doing this as a tutorial for new players. Which I guess could also be modified/expanded at that point for auto production of a/c etc. Sort of an Allied economy for Japan.
2. Creating a doc for Japanese Econ 1st turn setup - a step by step guide. Taking into account everything I would do & taking views from the forum from other economic giants such as Mike (and too many others to name here.)
3. Have a 1st turn DB system (this would require some of the IJN/IJA players offering their first turns to be studied/used by others)

Lastly - if none of this seems like your cuppa. Then how about I become your economics minister. I'll sets it up, have a look once a month and tinker with it ... you can be hands free or alternatively take some advice from me and learn the system. Which once running can be fun and not that burdensome.

Regards

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 9
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 11:36:16 PM   
SgtSwanson


Posts: 212
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Long Branch, NJ
Status: offline 		IMHO points 2 and 4 make the most sense to me. Isn't there a list somewhere of what planes to scrap from the get go? I know there used t be one for the original game. My problem on the Allied side is that I now have to choose between upgrade and keep. And I'm still trying to figure out what the upgrade means. Does it mean that the factory itself gets bigger like Boeing's Seattle plant, by building a whole seperate plant for the B-29s? Or does it have it's own plane upgrade path? Like going from the P-51B to the P-51D version?

_____________________________

Sgt Swanson
87-93 5/502 Inf. Berlin Bde
93-95 2/502 Inf. 101st Airborne Div.
Freedom is never free!!

Patch of the Week: 6th Infantry Division

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 10
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/17/2011 11:39:03 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SgtSwanson

IMHO points 2 and 4 make the most sense to me. Isn't there a list somewhere of what planes to scrap from the get go? I know there used t be one for the original game. My problem on the Allied side is that I now have to choose between upgrade and keep. And I'm still trying to figure out what the upgrade means. Does it mean that the factory itself gets bigger like Boeing's Seattle plant, by building a whole seperate plant for the B-29s? Or does it have it's own plane upgrade path? Like going from the P-51B to the P-51D version?

Upgrade means the plant will convert to the next plane model in the upgrade sequence. Keep means that it will ignore this and stay the same. No size enhancements.

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to SgtSwanson)
Post #: 11
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 12:24:03 AM   
undercovergeek

 

Posts: 1526
Joined: 11/21/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Ok, good info.

So on the heels of that...


I'm just trying to see if there's a way to come up with a "Japanese (Minimal) Proudction for Dummies" scenario.

I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.

-F-

I'm in the process of doing a few things but they might not come to fruition in the timeframe you want.
1. Making the GC scenario basically set up for Japanese production from the get-go. The problem is convoys which can't be made CS. I was doing this as a tutorial for new players. Which I guess could also be modified/expanded at that point for auto production of a/c etc. Sort of an Allied economy for Japan.
2. Creating a doc for Japanese Econ 1st turn setup - a step by step guide. Taking into account everything I would do & taking views from the forum from other economic giants such as Mike (and too many others to name here.)
3. Have a 1st turn DB system (this would require some of the IJN/IJA players offering their first turns to be studied/used by others)

Lastly - if none of this seems like your cuppa. Then how about I become your economics minister. I'll sets it up, have a look once a month and tinker with it ... you can be hands free or alternatively take some advice from me and learn the system. Which once running can be fun and not that burdensome.

Regards


holy **** Damian - is this offer open to all those in need of a nudge in the right direction??

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 12
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 12:43:17 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Ok, good info.

So on the heels of that...


I'm just trying to see if there's a way to come up with a "Japanese (Minimal) Proudction for Dummies" scenario.

I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.

-F-

I'm in the process of doing a few things but they might not come to fruition in the timeframe you want.
1. Making the GC scenario basically set up for Japanese production from the get-go. The problem is convoys which can't be made CS. I was doing this as a tutorial for new players. Which I guess could also be modified/expanded at that point for auto production of a/c etc. Sort of an Allied economy for Japan.
2. Creating a doc for Japanese Econ 1st turn setup - a step by step guide. Taking into account everything I would do & taking views from the forum from other economic giants such as Mike (and too many others to name here.)
3. Have a 1st turn DB system (this would require some of the IJN/IJA players offering their first turns to be studied/used by others)

Lastly - if none of this seems like your cuppa. Then how about I become your economics minister. I'll sets it up, have a look once a month and tinker with it ... you can be hands free or alternatively take some advice from me and learn the system. Which once running can be fun and not that burdensome.

Regards

holy **** Damian - is this offer open to all those in need of a nudge in the right direction??

As I don't have time to get into a full GC, except for Floyd and I toying with small scenario's; I like to keep my hand in and help those that need it. I can do, what I can do, when I have time... so I guess I'm saying that this offer is open ... as long as you pass along the knowledge you gain to others in the future.
* Disclaimer - I'm not a master, there are many ways to skin a cat & most of the time you learn more by doing it yourself (with a little direction).
This is why I'm doing this:
quote:

2. Creating a doc for Japanese Econ 1st turn setup - a step by step guide. Taking into account everything I would do & taking views from the forum from other economic giants such as Mike (and too many others to name here.)

Cheers

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 10/18/2011 12:46:27 AM >

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to undercovergeek)
Post #: 13
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 3:49:58 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

Posts: 1484
Joined: 12/19/2004
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Original:

holy **** Damian - is this offer open to all those in need of a nudge in the right direction??

As I don't have time to get into a full GC, except for Floyd and I toying with small scenario's; I like to keep my hand in and help those that need it. I can do, what I can do, when I have time... so I guess I'm saying that this offer is open ... as long as you pass along the knowledge you gain to others in the future.
* Disclaimer - I'm not a master, there are many ways to skin a cat & most of the time you learn more by doing it yourself (with a little direction).

Damian,

As you are one of the two Tracker Boys (concept and implementation) who put together that awesome tool, I respectfully submit that you have probably forgotten more about Japanese Economics than I have ever learned - and I am working hard at it.

A Mike Solli / Damian Tracker Boy School of Economics student wannabe Mac.

< Message edited by Mac Linehan -- 10/18/2011 3:51:48 AM >

_____________________________

LAV-25 2147

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Post #: 14
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 6:41:22 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

So my question is, if you don't touch japanese production, what happens?
I understand you've got to move the resources and oil and stuff.

-F-


If you don't touch production, you're screwed. It is that simple.

For example, you eventually run out of shipyard points. You can't produce even historical number of planes. Actually, nowhere near historical number of planes, maybe something like 30 %...

You just have to manage economy if you want to play Japan.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 15
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 8:11:32 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder
I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.
-F-


That's exactly how I feel about playing Japan. Production sounds to me like pilot training without the fun, of which there is arguably no fun in pilot training either. :)

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 16
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 8:13:47 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Cannonfodder, do you realize the soldier on the right in your signature is brandishing what appears to be a perfectly good bottle of root beer?  He should be careful with that; either drink it or share it with his comrade, but don't shake the bottle recklessly...

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 10/18/2011 8:15:44 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 17
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 11:09:02 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

What happens?

I'm just thinking ahead to when I start my first campaign game (PBEM).
I never wanted to bother with Japanese Prod in WitP (original), and I'm not really inclined now with AE.

So my question is, if you don't touch japanese production, what happens?

Allies kill your puny airforce (starting air factories need to be expanded threefold-fourfold to achieve historical levels of production), while you produce excessive amounts of armaments and merchant shipping.




_____________________________

The Reluctant Admiral mod team.

Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 18
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 1:52:41 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder
I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.
-F-


That's exactly how I feel about playing Japan. Production sounds to me like pilot training without the fun, of which there is arguably no fun in pilot training either. :)



Yes, but look at it this way... it's the perfect excuse for not being able to win the war. I can always claim that it wasn't my military prowness that lost the war... it was that dang beancounting that did me in!

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 19
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 2:14:58 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Ok, good info.

So on the heels of that...

What if there was a mod that offered "static" Japanese production such as airframe replacements etc (similar to Allied), and/or ship production (as Allies). Would that even be do-able? Would it be playable? Obvioulsy, the only point of the facilities then would be to bomb them for points.

I guess a major flaw would be that also frees-up the Japanese merchant fleet and escorts from having to haul materials for production, so it would require some kind adjustment there. You don't want to just remove or lock the ships down - because they also serve as targets and vps.

I'm just trying to see if there's a way to come up with a "Japanese (Minimal) Proudction for Dummies" scenario.

I wouldn't mind playing Japan in PBEM, but I don't want all the pain of micro-managing production.
Otherwise, I'm "stuck" always playing Allies.

-F-


Feinder, it sounds like you need a 2x2 game with a partner who enjoys managing the economy.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 20
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 2:29:13 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Yeah, I suggest Feinder and John III team up to play as Japan. Feinder can manage the military and leave production issues to John III....

...and in a few weeks they can call in NYGiants to rescue the economy, which by then will be turning out Volkswagon Beetles, souvenier match boxes, and exquisite topiaries.



< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 10/18/2011 3:28:02 PM >

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 21
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/18/2011 2:43:45 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America
Feinder, it sounds like you need a 2x2 game with a partner who enjoys managing the economy.


That sort of person is usually described as "masochist"....

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 22
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/27/2011 1:37:54 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Cannonfodder, do you realize the soldier on the right in your signature is brandishing what appears to be a perfectly good bottle of root beer?  He should be careful with that; either drink it or share it with his comrade, but don't shake the bottle recklessly...


Vodka more likely

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 23
RE: If you don't touch Japanese Production - 10/27/2011 3:21:50 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yeah, I suggest Feinder and John III team up to play as Japan. Feinder can manage the military and leave production issues to John III....

...and in a few weeks they can call in NYGiants to rescue the economy, which by then will be turning out Volkswagon Beetles, souvenier match boxes, and exquisite topiaries.




You are wrong there CR. I would have the Japanese producing Beta VCRs that work about 25% of the time and crash 100% of the time!

The game within the game for Japan is difficult to master. Michael as well as Damian has been a huge help. Take up Damian's offer, start an AAR and get good advice. Piece of cake!


_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 24
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