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Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 5:28:31 AM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		I have just received a squadron of SBDs [see screenpic]. Should I train them @ Noumea or transfer them to the Hornet which is there getting minor repairs & replenished? I prefer the latter. I think they would get more experience faster by exposing them to combat. The numerical superiority thus obtained should compensate for their lack of experience & keep casualties down. Does the game work this way? What is the recommended procedure and time frame for getting them ready for combat?




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_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John
Post #: 1
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 5:50:01 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		I would check NavS skill before going into action. If it is as low as I suspect,
better give em a months worth of NavS training. Rest looks good.

With low skill you will rapidly increase exp, and lacking search skills is
on of the major PITAs in a CV engagement.

Edit: also check on commanders with better naval skill, plus, if you don´t want
to use Hornet in a combat zone soon, train the squad on the CV to change from
CV capable to CV trained.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 10/27/2011 5:52:40 AM >

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RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 6:29:38 AM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I would check NavS skill before going into action. If it is as low as I suspect,
better give em a months worth of NavS training. Rest looks good.

With low skill you will rapidly increase exp, and lacking search skills is
on of the major PITAs in a CV engagement.

Edit: also check on commanders with better naval skill, plus, if you don´t want
to use Hornet in a combat zone soon, train the squad on the CV to change from
CV capable to CV trained.


The average NavS is 48 [see screenpic] which I assume is low as you suspected.

You mentioned search skills. So far I've been relying on other planes to do the searches, esp. Catalinas, since I want to save my SBDs for the attack. So far it has worked well for me, since I sank the Shokaku and a light carrier & badly damaged the Zuikakaku with only minor damage to the Wasp which is back in action. BTW, I am playing the Guadalcanal Scenario. I have all 4 fleet carriers: Enterprise, Saratoga, Hornet, and Wasp plus the CVL Long Island plus many planes on Lunga. This is why I mentioned superior numbers as a factor in wanting to put the SBDs into action sooner rather than later. I'm not sure what CV capable vs. CV trained is but I can probably figure it out.

Thank you for your comments. Please let me know what you think.




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_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 3
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 7:02:05 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		In an AI game this might be enough, my perspective is a bit different from
playing PBEM where those things matter more.

Against a human I´d definitely give NavB and NavS another 2-3 weeks.

Concerning naval search, do not forget that the results diminish with range, which
greatly hampers the effectiveness of Cats. Relying on flying boats and other means
to ident targets for your carriers might get you in deep trouble as soon as you do
not operate beneath a well stacked air umbrella.

(Against a human) I would never send my carriers into battle without at least
above average NavS skills.


It is somethimes more satisfying to deliberately neglect specific things against AI
which are potentially deadly in PBEM to keep the game balance intact and enjoy the game
more. This might be one of those situations.

But I would wait for guys like Bullwinkle or PaxMondo to answer this one as they are much more experienced
in fighting the AI than I am.

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Post #: 4
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 7:55:23 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SPRUANCE74

I have just received a squadron of SBDs [see screenpic]. Should I train them @ Noumea or transfer them to the Hornet which is there getting minor repairs & replenished? I prefer the latter. I think they would get more experience faster by exposing them to combat. The numerical superiority thus obtained should compensate for their lack of experience & keep casualties down. Does the game work this way? What is the recommended procedure and time frame for getting them ready for combat?

...

I sent this via PM ... didn't you get it?

Noumea unless you want to specifically carrier train them. They are currently carrier capable. It takes a few weeks+ to get the carrier trained. You can still use them off the carrier, but there will be larger OP's losses and harder to get them to fly.

Also depends on pilot skills - at present I can't see their individual skills but their exp is (53), but I doubt they are ready for accurate DB'ing.

Sometimes, exposing them to fire is good for exp, but probably not always. Don't you have enough dedicated carrier airwing?

Have them at Noumea, training 100% range 0, select 9000 alt (no low alt skills) and decide the skill you want to improve.

Cheers

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to SPRUANCE74)
Post #: 5
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 7:56:02 AM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		If you have no experienced pilots in reserve pool, the quickest way to make this unit front-line worthy is imho to dump all the pilots with exp greater than 45 except 2LT Norton B. They have low NavS and NavB and with that high EXP they will learn very slow. Pick the unit a good commander(air, inspiration and leadership or at least leadership and air) and let them train NavB for a month and 2 weeks NavS.

If you are aiming for NavB 65-70 and NavS 50-60 with EXP of 50+ for everyone with good leader it'll take 2½-3 months with fresh replacement pilots. It'll take longer with the pilots the unit now has.

While they're training you might want to put them on Long Island, after 3 months(90 turns) they'll become Carrier Trained(they're now Carrier Capable) and will suffer less ops losses.

< Message edited by Erkki -- 10/27/2011 7:58:20 AM >

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RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 4:15:26 PM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Hi Damien,

I knew you were busy, so I posted my question here as well. I'm busy also getting ready for my trip and I haven't seen your PM yet but will look for it. Yes, I have plenty of planes in & around Lunga, but in my previous battles I found that overwhelming attack numbers led to great results. This is how I sank 2 carriers while still having enough CAP to protect mine. The Japs have a big fleet around Shortlands including 2 BBs while I have only 1, so if they attack me at Tassafaronga or Lunga I want to be able to counterattack them heavily with air. I only have 1 BB, the Washington since the NC is being repaired. It is at Tassafaronga with CAs & DDs preventing the Tokyo Express from landing reinforcements so the Japs could attack me there. I get the South Dakota in a few days. Nonetheless, I will follow your advice & train the pilots as you suggest just to learn how to do it if for no other reason.

LoBaron,

Thanks for responding. It will be awhile before I'm ready to play humans. Getting thru the scenarios is time-consuming & I still have to play the full game. [What does PBEM stand for?] Where are the different skills you mention such as NavB defined in the Manual or in the Forum threads; e.g., the Headings in the screenpic above: NavT, Air, Tran, GrdB, LowN, LowG, Staf, Defn [defense?]? I routinely examine my Leaders and replace them with more skilled Leaders. How do you go from CV Trained to CV Capable & where is this described and/or discussed?





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 7
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 4:41:28 PM   
CT Grognard

 

Posts: 694
Joined: 5/16/2010
From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SPRUANCE74

Hi Damien,

I knew you were busy, so I posted my question here as well. I'm busy also getting ready for my trip and I haven't seen your PM yet but will look for it. Yes, I have plenty of planes in & around Lunga, but in my previous battles I found that overwhelming attack numbers led to great results. This is how I sank 2 carriers while still having enough CAP to protect mine. The Japs have a big fleet around Shortlands including 2 BBs while I have only 1, so if they attack me at Tassafaronga or Lunga I want to be able to counterattack them heavily with air. I only have 1 BB, the Washington since the NC is being repaired. It is at Tassafaronga with CAs & DDs preventing the Tokyo Express from landing reinforcements so the Japs could attack me there. I get the South Dakota in a few days. Nonetheless, I will follow your advice & train the pilots as you suggest just to learn how to do it if for no other reason.

LoBaron,

Thanks for responding. It will be awhile before I'm ready to play humans. Getting thru the scenarios is time-consuming & I still have to play the full game. [What does PBEM stand for?] Where are the different skills you mention such as NavB defined in the Manual or in the Forum threads; e.g., the Headings in the screenpic above: NavT, Air, Tran, GrdB, LowN, LowG, Staf, Defn [defense?]? I routinely examine my Leaders and replace them with more skilled Leaders. How do you go from CV Trained to CV Capable & where is this described and/or discussed?







I'll try to answer some of your questions:

1) PBEM stands for Play-By-Email - i.e. you play against human opponents.
2) The skills are not defined in the manual. Quick summary of the applicable skills are (please note this is not exhaustive):

NavT: Naval torpedoing - the higher the better odds of your torpedo bombers scoring hits on ships on Naval Attack missions;
Air: Air-to-Air - the higher the better odds of your fighters shooting down other aircraft;
Tran: Transport - the higher the lower operational losses will be for transport pilots;
GrdB: Ground bombing - the higher the more successful bombing of ground troops will be on Ground Attack missions;
NavB: Naval bombing - the higher the more successful bombing of naval ships will be on Naval Attack missions (higher than 6,000 feet, I believe);
LowG: Low-level ground bombing - below 6,000 feet;
LowN: Low-level naval bombing - below 6,000 feet (also impacts effectiveness of ASW aircraft (i.e. hitting submarines once detected) and kamikazes)
Staf: Strafing - affects effectiveness of strafing attacks by fighters and attack bombers at 100 feet;
Defn: Defensive - the higher the better the odds of all aircraft types surviving air-to-air combat.

The higher the experience of the pilot, the less chance of operational losses (e.g. crashing on landing).

(in reply to SPRUANCE74)
Post #: 8
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 4:42:12 PM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		"Noumea unless you want to specifically carrier train them. They are currently carrier capable. It takes a few weeks+ to get the carrier trained. You can still use them off the carrier, but there will be larger OP's losses and harder to get them to fly."

This answers my question RE defining these.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erkki

If you have no experienced pilots in reserve pool, the quickest way to make this unit front-line worthy is imho to dump all the pilots with exp greater than 45 except 2LT Norton B. They have low NavS and NavB and with that high EXP they will learn very slow. Pick the unit a good commander(air, inspiration and leadership or at least leadership and air) and let them train NavB for a month and 2 weeks NavS.

If you are aiming for NavB 65-70 and NavS 50-60 with EXP of 50+ for everyone with good leader it'll take 2½-3 months with fresh replacement pilots. It'll take longer with the pilots the unit now has.

While they're training you might want to put them on Long Island, after 3 months(90 turns) they'll become Carrier Trained(they're now Carrier Capable) and will suffer less ops losses.

quote:

If you have no experienced pilots in reserve pool, the quickest way to make this unit front-line worthy is imho to dump all the pilots with exp greater than 45 except 2LT Norton B. They have low NavS and NavB and with that high EXP they will learn very slow. Pick the unit a good commander(air, inspiration and leadership or at least leadership and air) and let them train NavB for a month and 2 weeks NavS.

If you are aiming for NavB 65-70 and NavS 50-60 with EXP of 50+ for everyone with good leader it'll take 2½-3 months with fresh replacement pilots. It'll take longer with the pilots the unit now has.

While they're training you might want to put them on Long Island, after 3 months(90 turns) they'll become Carrier Trained (they're now Carrier Capable) and will suffer less ops losses.


I haven't tried "dumping" pilots yet, but I assume it isn't difficult. I have been using more pilots rather than less because it seems to cut down on fatigue. but your point is well-taken.

I could try two different approaches.[1] training the pilots 1st, then go back to a saved game & try [2] putting them on CVs with little or no training esp. if the Japs attack me. They have done a lot of damage at night with their night binocs so I want to be able to hit them hard the next day with air esp. their damaged ships. If they don't attack, I don't think it will matter much, but the full training program would seem to be best.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 9
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 4:47:15 PM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard





I'll try to answer some of your questions:

1) PBEM stands for Play-By-Email - i.e. you play against human opponents.
2) The skills are not defined in the manual. Quick summary of the applicable skills are (please note this is not exhaustive):

NavT: Naval torpedoing - the higher the better odds of your torpedo bombers scoring hits on ships on Naval Attack missions;
Air: Air-to-Air - the higher the better odds of your fighters shooting down other aircraft;
Tran: Transport - the higher the lower operational losses will be for transport pilots;
GrdB: Ground bombing - the higher the more successful bombing of ground troops will be on Ground Attack missions;
NavB: Naval bombing - the higher the more successful bombing of naval ships will be on Naval Attack missions (higher than 6,000 feet, I believe);
LowG: Low-level ground bombing - below 6,000 feet;
LowN: Low-level naval bombing - below 6,000 feet (also impacts effectiveness of ASW aircraft (i.e. hitting submarines once detected) and kamikazes)
Staf: Strafing - affects effectiveness of strafing attacks by fighters and attack bombers at 100 feet;
Defn: Defensive - the higher the better the odds of all aircraft types surviving air-to-air combat.

The higher the experience of the pilot, the less chance of operational losses (e.g. crashing on landing).




Thanks. That is very, very helpful.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to CT Grognard)
Post #: 10
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 5:22:14 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		How do you train NAVT I do not think its listed , i just use naval and set less than 5000 feet. Am I not doing it right?

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Post #: 11
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 5:51:09 PM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

"If you have no experienced pilots in reserve pool, the quickest way to make this unit front-line worthy is imho to dump all the pilots with exp greater than 45 except 2LT Norton B."

I don't think you meant that. I would only have one pilot left!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 12
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 5:54:22 PM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		What happens if you click "Release pilot" at the bottom of the screenpic above?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to SPRUANCE74)
Post #: 13
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 5:59:51 PM   
Erkki


Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Actually I meant that those EXP 50+ pilots wont train quick and their skills are low. Kick them out, replace them with low experience replenishment pilots and train those. In 2½-3 months they are also EXP 50+ but they can be NavB 70 and NavS 50-60.

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Post #: 14
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 6:03:54 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		cavalry: You need torp capable a/c and set them to use torps, then train on naval attack, altitude is irrelevant on the occasion.

SPRUANCE74: Release pilot gets em back to the reserve pool. And what Erkki meant was: the higher the skill mix of your pilots, the longer it takes em to train
additional skills. Also, the higher the exp of your pilots the longer it takes.
I would not say the klickfest is worth it, but opinions might differ.

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Post #: 15
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 8:14:02 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Be sure you pay attention to the difference between skill and exp, they are not interchangeable and have very separate impacts upon mission effectiveness.

Whch scenario are you playing? This matter greatly in terms of determining the likely skill/exp of the AI pilots.

If you are playing any of the non-Ironman scenarios, you can get by with 60 skill/40exp pilots in a lot of situations. Your strikes will be smaller, and you will have coordination issues that you need to account for. Generally, this isn't too hard to do.

If you are playing the Ironman scenarios, you will need +60 skill/60 exp pilots minimum. The opposition is loaded with +70 initial group pilots and gets 60-65 exp replacements. Using low exp pilots in the Ironman scenarios will cost you a lot of panes and pilots AND give additional exp to the AI.



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Pax

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Post #: 16
RE: Training Pilots - 10/27/2011 8:42:45 PM   
SPRUANCE74


Posts: 120
Joined: 9/15/2011
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

Whch scenario are you playing?


I'm Playing the Guadalcanal Scenario.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy, and they is us!"

Pogo

Kindest regards,

John

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 17
RE: Training Pilots - 10/28/2011 3:16:03 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		One thing that I understand to be true is that although Cats can search for your carriers, but that searching is much more effective for the carrier units to attack if it is done from the unit(TF) actually attacking.... At least that's my understanding. Thus I try to use at least one squadron of SBDs (usually the one designated as a "search" unit) for searches from a TF. Plus, keep in mind that if you see it with a SBD, then you know the target (Jap TF) is within range.

(in reply to SPRUANCE74)
Post #: 18
RE: Training Pilots - 10/28/2011 3:51:51 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

How do you train NAVT I do not think its listed , i just use naval and set less than 5000 feet. Am I not doing it right?


You can only train NavT with planes that have torpedo ordnance. Thus, you cannot train NavT with SBD Dauntlesses, for example. But for example with TBF Avenger you can train NavT or NavB/LowN just by switching ordnance between bombs & torpedoes.

If plane has torpedo ordnance selected, it traisn NavT automatically.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 10/28/2011 3:52:36 PM >

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