RE: Rumania and Bessarabia

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: Rumania and Bessarabia

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/2/2011 4:08:58 AM

Extraneous

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

I request that we get a clarification of this rule.

Yes a rule clarification on the AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUP WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary � 2009, Australian Design Group.

quote:

Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war.

And then by using your own logic you may only �Claim Bessarabia� once.

Because nowhere in the rules or the chart does it say you can do it more than once.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 31

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/2/2011 8:58:26 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

I think that this should be asked. The claim should be asked also. Personally, I don't see anything historically wrong by allowing the Soviets from trying to use diplomatic means a second time to get Bessarabia, with again the compleet rule in use... Strange? Yes. Unlikely? No.
Diplomats and politicians tend to use the same tactics: repeat, repeat, repeat and one time you'll make you're point.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 32

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/2/2011 9:52:45 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think that this should be asked. The claim should be asked also. Personally, I don't see anything historically wrong by allowing the Soviets from trying to use diplomatic means a second time to get Bessarabia, with again the compleet rule in use... Strange? Yes. Unlikely? No.
Diplomats and politicians tend to use the same tactics: repeat, repeat, repeat and one time you'll make you're point.

Declare war, make peace and then declare war again with the same country all within a couple of months time is unheard of to me. I feel it is totally unrealistic.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 33

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/2/2011 11:31:59 PM

Jimm

Posts: 607
Joined: 7/27/2006
From: York, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think that this should be asked. The claim should be asked also. Personally, I don't see anything historically wrong by allowing the Soviets from trying to use diplomatic means a second time to get Bessarabia, with again the compleet rule in use... Strange? Yes. Unlikely? No.
Diplomats and politicians tend to use the same tactics: repeat, repeat, repeat and one time you'll make you're point.

Declare war, make peace and then declare war again with the same country all within a couple of months time is unheard of to me. I feel it is totally unrealistic.

Maybe only if you view "declaring war" as an formal political declaration. Wif doesnt allow any any grey areas about states of war, but what happened in Centuur's game sounds more like a border skirmish.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 34

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/3/2011 10:41:32 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

Maybe there wasn't a skirmish after all. No effect can main such a FOW that there wasn't any fight, apart from the bombardment on the Ploesti oilfields of the Russian air force. Now, if we see that as a serious warning by the Soviets, that they mean business and want to have Bessarabia, it sure would be possible that the diplomatic talks took a couple of months convincing the stubborn Rumanians that they better give up...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Jimm)

Post #: 35

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/11/2011 6:14:48 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

The question of more than one claim on Bessarabia, and more than one DoW on Rumania in the case where a peace is enforced; was referred to Harry Rowland, the game's designer.

Harry is working on RAW8 and an NDA prohibits me from posting an exact quote of the changes that will be made.

However if these changes remain in for publication (which is highly liikely) they will make it clear in the next issue of the rules that Russia may perform these actions only once per game. This of course renders moot any discussion of whether US Entry is affected more than once by a Russian claim being denied.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 36

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/11/2011 9:54:53 AM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

Thank you Paul for the clarification.

Edit: And you saved me hours of potential arguing if this had been an issue in my next game. Thank you.

< Message edited by Orm -- 11/11/2011 10:02:47 AM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 37

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/11/2011 7:18:38 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Thank you Paul for the clarification.

Edit: And you saved me hours of potential arguing if this had been an issue in my next game. Thank you.

Well, if that happens, you've also rolled two times 2 on the 2D10 table and not moving any Russian unit into Bessarabia. I don't think I'll ever make that last mistake again...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 38

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/11/2011 7:33:53 PM

Extraneous

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The question of more than one claim on Bessarabia, and more than one DoW on Rumania in the case where a peace is enforced; was referred to Harry Rowland, the game's designer.

Harry is working on RAW8 and an NDA prohibits me from posting an exact quote of the changes that will be made.

However if these changes remain in for publication (which is highly likely) they will make it clear in the next issue of the rules that Russia may perform these actions only once per game. This of course renders moot any discussion of whether US Entry is affected more than once by a Russian claim being denied.

I asume that you mean moot because of your NDA.

Gratz on your being allowed to test RAW8.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 39

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/11/2011 9:57:06 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL:� paulderynck

The question of more than one claim on Bessarabia, and more than one DoW on Rumania in the case where a peace is enforced; was referred to Harry Rowland, the game's designer.

Harry is working on RAW8 and an NDA prohibits me from posting an exact quote of the changes that will be made.

However if these changes remain in for publication (which is highly likely) they will make it clear in the next issue of the rules that Russia may perform these actions only once per game. This of course renders moot any discussion of whether US Entry is affected more than once by a Russian claim being denied.

I asume that you mean moot because of your NDA.� �Gratz on your being allowed to test RAW8.

Actually, I took "moot" to mean that if the rules end up saying Russia can only do it once, then there is no possibility of a 2nd claim/roll.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 40

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/11/2011 11:25:26 PM

Dr Deo

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/8/2011
From: Landet Bruns�s
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Declare war, make peace and then declare war again with the same country all within a couple of months time is unheard of to me. I feel it is totally unrealistic.

Unheard of? Well, have you heard of a certain Charles X Gustav of Sweden and what happened 1658?

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 41

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/12/2011 1:23:36 AM

Extraneous

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The question of more than one claim on Bessarabia, and more than one DoW on Rumania in the case where a peace is enforced; was referred to Harry Rowland, the game's designer.

Harry is working on RAW8 and an NDA prohibits me from posting an exact quote of the changes that will be made.

However if these changes remain in for publication (which is highly likely) they will make it clear in the next issue of the rules that Russia may perform these actions only once per game. This of course renders moot any discussion of whether US Entry is affected more than once by a Russian claim being denied.

I assume that you mean moot because of your NDA. Gratz on your being allowed to test RAW8.

Actually, I took "moot" to mean that if the rules end up saying Russia can only do it once, then there is no possibility of a 2nd claim/roll.

I took it to mean because of his NDA he is unable to discuss if USE is affected by more than one USSR DoW against the same minor.

Either way it will be explained in RAW8.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Dr Deo)

Post #: 42

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/12/2011 6:18:34 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

My intended meaning is as Red Prince deduced.

Actually the question of whether repeat identical DoWs should cause repeat US entry is the next subject I'll be introducing in the RAW8 discussions. There is still some worthy clarification due in regards to the statement in RAW about Entry Actions 20, 31 & 32 versus what Footnote 1 of the chart says. Of course, if only those cause repeat US entry then you have to wonder about any repeat DoW, which in turn might mean revamping the chart and the footnotes.

If anything comes of it, I'll keep you posted.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)

Post #: 43

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/12/2011 8:57:39 AM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Deo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Declare war, make peace and then declare war again with the same country all within a couple of months time is unheard of to me. I feel it is totally unrealistic.

Unheard of? Well, have you heard of a certain Charles X Gustav of Sweden and what happened 1658?

Yes, I have heard of what happened 1658. And I do not think it is the same thing.

But maybe I should have formulated myself a bit differently since I actually thought about this event when I objected. I should have written days or maybe weeks. Or maybe I shouldn't have written it at all because I did not want to argue about this since I was sure that there were going to be a clarification on this subject.

If USSR had fought a war with Rumania and agreed to peace terms and then declared war a short while lalter I doubt that USSR could have recieved any help from the Western Allies. The political cost for Charles X Gustav of Sweden 1658 was heavy and Sweden had to agree to worse peace terms the second time around so no gain for this treacherous DOW.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Dr Deo)

Post #: 44

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/12/2011 12:51:41 PM

Dr Deo

Posts: 23
Joined: 7/8/2011
From: Landet Bruns�s
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If USSR had fought a war with Rumania and agreed to peace terms and then declared war a short while lalter I doubt that USSR could have recieved any help from the Western Allies. The political cost for Charles X Gustav of Sweden 1658 was heavy and Sweden had to agree to worse peace terms the second time around so no gain for this treacherous DOW.

Yes, but at the time of the Bessarabian claim, Stalin wasn't expecting any help from the WA, since SU had a pact with Germany, so why would he take that into consideration?

There are of course other reasons why he wouldn't want to risk a second attack, like e.g. incompetent officers (in the example of the game in question) or German interests in the region.

Personally, I think the claim on Bessarabia should only be allowed once, but whether a second DOW should be allowed? Maybe. As long as a second DOW would generate significant US entry effect, I don't think it's totally unrealistic.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 45

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/12/2011 3:36:48 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Deo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If USSR had fought a war with Rumania and agreed to peace terms and then declared war a short while lalter I doubt that USSR could have recieved any help from the Western Allies. The political cost for Charles X Gustav of Sweden 1658 was heavy and Sweden had to agree to worse peace terms the second time around so no gain for this treacherous DOW.

Yes, but at the time of the Bessarabian claim, Stalin wasn't expecting any help from the WA, since SU had a pact with Germany, so why would he take that into consideration?

There are of course other reasons why he wouldn't want to risk a second attack, like e.g. incompetent officers (in the example of the game in question) or German interests in the region.

Personally, I think the claim on Bessarabia should only be allowed once, but whether a second DOW should be allowed? Maybe. As long as a second DOW would generate significant US entry effect, I don't think it's totally unrealistic.

I'm not so sure the last point is valid. I'm also not sure it is not valid.

Do you remember the Chechnya invasions that were on and off for many months/years? And the 8+ years the Soviets spent in Afghanistan, sometimes withdrawing and returning? How about the constant back and forth battles between Israel and Palestine about 10 years ago when each side kept going back on its promises?

I think in most of these cases, only the initial confrontation produced a significant backlash in the US. Exasperation and disgust were the emotions that followed the repeat episodes. I don't see that as the same level of anger/tension that is represented by the US Entry system. But that's just my opinion.

-Aaron

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Dr Deo)

Post #: 46

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 6:06:07 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.

I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 47

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 3:42:20 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.

I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.

But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its edge ???

-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 11/15/2011 3:43:56 PM >

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 48

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 4:07:52 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.

I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.

But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its edge ???

-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .

No trouble at all. I have the perfect coin we can use for this toss.

Baring divine intervention it will give me the result I prefer.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 49

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 4:18:55 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.

I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.

But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its edge ???

-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .

No trouble at all. I have the perfect coin we can use for this toss. Baring divine intervention it will give me the result I prefer.

Ahhh. So that's how you nearly won the Barbarossa AAR !!!

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 50

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 4:21:39 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.

I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.

But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its edge ???

-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .

No trouble at all. I have the perfect coin we can use for this toss. Baring divine intervention it will give me the result I prefer.

Ahhh. So that's how you nearly won the Barbarossa AAR !!!

No. That game was not decided by a coin toss. I lost that game due to daring successful attacks by a competent German player.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 51

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 4:27:24 PM

Extraneous

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUPWiF FE Rule Clarification Summary� 2009, Australian Design Group

Number Q9.2-2

Rule Reference 9.2

Question (411) Are alignment and DOW done simultaneously or sequentially?

Example I: Does the CW know the results of the US DOW attempt(s) before making his decisions?

Example II: Can Japan DOW the CW in the same impulse Germany declares war on the Netherlands and then invade NEI and the CW territories, or does Japan have to wait until the impulse after Germany DOWs the Netherlands?

Harry Rowland's Answer (411)
All DOWs are announced sequentially, and you DO get to know whether the US was successful in declaring war on an Axis major power immediately she announces it, but you DON'T get to know the US entry effect nor who aligns the minor until AFTER all DOWs are announced.

You must declare war on all major powers first, and then all minor countries. However within these restrictions you can declare war in any order you like. Thus you can wait till other major powers on your side have declared war before you do. After all declarations of war you roll for the US entry effect and then work out alignment of minor countries.

Example I: Yes, the CW can wait until we know whether the US DoW is successful or not before they declare war. Date 19/07/2007

Example II: Yes she may DOW in the same impulse, and good play would dictate the Allied player consider the possibility of aligning the Netherlands to a different active Allied major power than the CW if this happens. Date 12/05/2008

RAW7aug04 Rule Quote (411)
9.2: All major powers on this side announce which major powers on the other side they are declaring war on this impulse. They then all announce which neutral minor countries they are declaring war on this impulse. (�)
Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war.

Answer Date 12/05/2008

Perhaps this will help.

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 52

RE: Rumania and Bessarabia - 11/15/2011 6:56:38 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

I really like the sentence: "good play would dictate the Allied player consider the possibility of aligning the Netherlands to a different active Allied major power than the CW if this happens."