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RE: C&C: REALLY important

 
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RE: C&C: REALLY important - 11/18/2011 2:08:52 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
The last part of Bletchley Geek's post is important to note, and could also be seen as a problem: it's nearly always much cheaper to reassign something to OKH/STAVKA and then to the command you wanted to assigned it to than to reassign it directly. Soviet divisional reattachments are cheap, but when corps come into play, doing it through STAVKA is often the most cost effective unless you get lucky with the 1/2 AP reduction leader roll.


Good point. Actually, doing it through the STAVKA is the way to go, because having there good ole Boris in charge usually means that you get the 1/2 reduction 80% of the time. It's a bit of a loophole.

If anything, base reattachment costs for Soviet units should be revised. Seems that "size" is the criterion for determining this. But then, it is not consistent that SU of Coy, Bn or Rgt have the same cost as a Brigade, and these the same as a Division. Consistent reattachment costs would be something like:

Coy, Bn, Rgt - 1 AP
Bde - 2 AP
Div - 6 AP
Corps - 12 AP

in my opinion.

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RE: C&C: REALLY important - 11/18/2011 3:32:52 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		You can also reassign corps cheaply after creation by making sure the division on top of the stack that you're creating the corps from is attached to STAVKA. Upon creation, the corps will then be assigned to STAVKA, regardless of which command the other 2 units belonged to.

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Post #: 62
RE: C&C: REALLY important - 11/18/2011 4:19:55 PM   
Flaviusx


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Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		BG, if we adopted those numbers, the Soviet AP budget would have to go up. There's no way they could manage a 450 rifle division army on a 50/60 AP budget/turn with those prices. Not and do the other zillion things they need to do with their APs.

If rifle divisions cost 6 APs to swap out, we'd also probably have to make German divisions cost 9 APs. They shouldn't be equal.

AP's are precious enough as it is. And the Red Army just got a brand new AP sink in the form of FRs. Leave well enough alone. Right now the game is on the edge of allowing German runaways to happen with some frequency. I'm not sure we need to push things further in this direction.

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Post #: 63
RE: C&C: REALLY important - 11/18/2011 5:55:43 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

BG, if we adopted those numbers, the Soviet AP budget would have to go up. There's no way they could manage a 450 rifle division army on a 50/60 AP budget/turn with those prices. Not and do the other zillion things they need to do with their APs.

If rifle divisions cost 6 APs to swap out, we'd also probably have to make German divisions cost 9 APs. They shouldn't be equal.

AP's are precious enough as it is. And the Red Army just got a brand new AP sink in the form of FRs. Leave well enough alone. Right now the game is on the edge of allowing German runaways to happen with some frequency. I'm not sure we need to push things further in this direction.


Because you have yet to see how the 1.05.40 railroad bug fix will hamstring the German army. Doubling-down rail lines will be ineffective, and German attacking power will be reduced by a large percentage over the 17 turn game. The "runaways" you're getting all hystrionic about are completely resultant from the railroad bug and HQ buildup chaining (which you want to see nerfed).

You're intellectual discernment of the obvious biases this game has for the Soviet side is disappointing me. You won't see the trees for the forest. The Soviets should have it harder than they do in 1941 command and control. The Germans should have it easier.

You have the reverse situation in WitE systemically that you do with the (apparently modified by the community) version of WitP: AE. The side with the historic disadvantage is given some liberty to make the game more competitive in WitP. Here, the Soviets have the long-term advantage and are also receiving the vast majority of the short-term advantages as well.

German players should speak the hell out and demand these idiotic handicaps against them be removed. Quit starting games as the German side. Boycott.

I'm not taking it anymore. And I am speaking up.

after-post edit addendum:
I'll give the Soviet cheaper cost for creating Fortified Regions in 1941, I have no problem with that. I'll be happy to discuss AP adjustments in return for the realistic adjustments to both sides ability to move divisions around in 1941. But the Soviets have NATO 1986 levels of command and control, and it's absurd.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 11/18/2011 6:03:03 PM >

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Post #: 64
RE: C&C: REALLY important - 11/18/2011 6:24:11 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I have to say I never doubled-down the RR building in my game vs. Bletchley Geek, and didn't HQ chain either, and I had what I consider a satisfying summer campaign (well, ask B-G if he thought I was nerfed). I understand the passion though.

This is not a comment directed at Helio or anyone else, but in general I would encourage all players to play both sides.

I think a) this makes you more objective in recommending game improvements, because I think we all want a balanced game, and b) it makes you a better player anyway, because you know where your opponent is having issues.

If you play only one side, it's pretty tough to make recommendations without a tinge of trying to help yourself out. I've done that. Being competitive, you want to win, so you want any help you can get, it's human nature. If you have 2 games going, you can look at it differently.

That's my two rubles/pfennigs




< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 11/18/2011 6:25:28 PM >

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Post #: 65
RE: C&C: REALLY important - 11/18/2011 7:04:42 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, it does seem that many people asking for penalties for one side have very little experience with playing that side and thus don't have a first hand perspective on the difficulties of playing either as the Axis or the Soviets.

With the blizzard offensive now being more difficult to pull off, I'm reluctant to penalize the Soviets more for 1941/1942 as they can have a pretty tough time.

The focus on manpower was somewhat valid in earlier versions, but as contrary to what Pelton and some others like to yell, Soviet morale has worsened for 1942 and German morale is generally a bit higher than before, a 7 million men Soviet army might be ahistorical, but it's not a steamroller in 1942.

One thing some of you seem to forget is that the Soviets in-game need 1 or 2 million men more to achieve the same things that the Soviets achieved with 1 or 2 million men less. Soviet unit quality is that poor compared to Axis unit quality.

Also keep in mind that at no point during a remotely competent Axis 1941 pre-blizzard campaign will the average German infantry division be at ~75% TOE.

Both sides are in a better shape at the end of 1941 than their historical counterparts.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 11/18/2011 7:05:43 PM >

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Post #: 66
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