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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

 
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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/10/2012 10:11:48 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Ouchie. I really feel for you. You get what, a thousand of them?!

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 1:19:55 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ouchie. I really feel for you. You get what, a thousand of them?!


Actually this is a way for the IJ to win this war. The Allies are very short on Tankers -- it is the one achilles heel in this game .. at November 42 I have about 100 total including little micro TK's working ..

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 1082
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 1:31:33 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		USN operations in '42 were hampered by a shortage of tankers + oilers.
Some of them were sent to the Atlantic to replace U-boat losses.
This was one reason why Nimitz didn't send any of old BBs to Guadalcanal.

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Post #: 1083
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 3:06:14 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
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From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		A ray of hope for the Japanese player.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 2:55:05 PM   
BigBadWolf


Posts: 584
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: Serbia
Status: offline 		Yeah, now only if I can find the damn things...

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 3:32:34 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Waypoints are your freind.

I use them religiously when I send out transports, including TKs as the Allies early in the war. You just don't have enough escorts to go around. The SCs start coming out in numbers in Aug/Sept 42 and then I can breathe easier.

Finding them - I send out wolfpacks of three I-boats with one Glen equipped and place them in parallel patrol zones to find them. Look for ports that have been expanded early in the war. Usually thats a good clue. I build up certain bases and to help those 18 plane Kingfisher go there. Just stay out more than 4 hexes.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 3:59:43 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 4239
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From: Alberta, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Not a big deal at all. We're all learning here. I'm learning that the Japanese subs are doomed.


According to Commander Stormwolf we just need to make everything Japanese capable of deploying an Emily to win the war. I don't see much preventing us from being able to equip a submarine with an Emily besides...reality!

Seriously, my subs have struggled all game so they are kind of a non-factor in my daily operations. I move them around and stuff, but if they were all sunk tomorrow I wouldn't miss them to be honest. I like submarine Ops, but this round they just didn't have much of an effect.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 4/11/2012 4:00:10 PM >

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Post #: 1087
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 4:06:23 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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From: Alberta, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigBadWolf

Yeah, now only if I can find the damn things...


I think in my game they were hugging the map edge. I think you can discover convoy routes based on the aggression or play style of your opponent. Cautious and risk averse, hunt the map edges as they are patient and in no hurry. Aggressive you can look for a more direct path or at least a less secure route in order to gain time. Just my thoughts, sometimes you do actually play the personality, like in Poker, and I think this game allows that in many ways.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 4/11/2012 4:07:00 PM >

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Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

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Post #: 1088
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 4:22:17 PM   
BigBadWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Waypoints are your freind.

I use them religiously when I send out transports, including TKs as the Allies early in the war. You just don't have enough escorts to go around. The SCs start coming out in numbers in Aug/Sept 42 and then I can breathe easier.

Finding them - I send out wolfpacks of three I-boats with one Glen equipped and place them in parallel patrol zones to find them. Look for ports that have been expanded early in the war. Usually thats a good clue. I build up certain bases and to help those 18 plane Kingfisher go there. Just stay out more than 4 hexes.


And where would one find such waypoints? :)

About wolfpacks, I don't get it. You put three subs in the same TF?

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 4:25:19 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Not a big deal at all. We're all learning here. I'm learning that the Japanese subs are doomed.


According to Commander Stormwolf we just need to make everything Japanese capable of deploying an Emily to win the war. I don't see much preventing us from being able to equip a submarine with an Emily besides...reality!

Seriously, my subs have struggled all game so they are kind of a non-factor in my daily operations. I move them around and stuff, but if they were all sunk tomorrow I wouldn't miss them to be honest. I like submarine Ops, but this round they just didn't have much of an effect.


As an AFB, the IJN submarines are a force in being that one cannot see. They force every convoy to have escorts of some kind or risk getting sunk. In particular tanker convoys. CV TF's have to have at least 32 ASW and possibly more. So planning has to include ASW forces.

So just because the IJ are not racking up huge tonnage losses -- the mere presence forces thoughts into the decision cycle.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 4:59:37 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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From: Alberta, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

As an AFB, the IJN submarines are a force in being that one cannot see. They force every convoy to have escorts of some kind or risk getting sunk. In particular tanker convoys. CV TF's have to have at least 32 ASW and possibly more. So planning has to include ASW forces.

So just because the IJ are not racking up huge tonnage losses -- the mere presence forces thoughts into the decision cycle.


I'd rather sink a tanker, rather than know you are scared of one being sunk.


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 1091
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 7:18:00 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

About wolfpacks, I don't get it. You put three subs in the same TF?


All four subs in separate TFs. They get set to four Patrol Zones that are right next (parallel tracks) to each other. The "legs" are 10 to 15 hexes long. In eastern Pacific, they tend to go from SW to NE direction. Make sure you add a second pilot for your Glen and train up in NavS to be able to tell the difference between a ship and a whale.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/11/2012 8:15:59 PM   
BigBadWolf


Posts: 584
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: Serbia
Status: offline 		Hmm, interesting. I usually go for triangular patrol zones. I'll try this and see what happens. And we over here in IJN are very proud of our "No whale left behind" policy, thank you very much :)

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/12/2012 1:57:24 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Still no turn. But, here's a little info on Allied TKs and AOs:

On 7 Dec 41, here's what he starts with:

69 TK
21 AO

Between 8 Dec 41 and 31 Dec 42, here are the reinforcements:

33 TK
8 AO

Not a lot. Unfortunately, most are medium to large. If we can kill off some, we definitely can put a hurting on moving fuel to the front though. Interesting....

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/12/2012 12:54:39 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Still no turn. But, here's a little info on Allied TKs and AOs:

On 7 Dec 41, here's what he starts with:

69 TK
21 AO

Between 8 Dec 41 and 31 Dec 42, here are the reinforcements:

33 TK
8 AO

Not a lot. Unfortunately, most are medium to large. If we can kill off some, we definitely can put a hurting on moving fuel to the front though. Interesting....


Hitting the TKs is nice, but getting a bunch of AOs would do some real damage. Less than 30 for that whole year.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/12/2012 3:04:14 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Still no turn. But, here's a little info on Allied TKs and AOs:

On 7 Dec 41, here's what he starts with:

69 TK
21 AO

Between 8 Dec 41 and 31 Dec 42, here are the reinforcements:

33 TK
8 AO

Not a lot. Unfortunately, most are medium to large. If we can kill off some, we definitely can put a hurting on moving fuel to the front though. Interesting....


I truly think the Allies must see periscopes in their sleep the first 6 months of this affair and force them to use longer range DD's to get fuel anywhere of use besides PH. One mistake I made was to let 2 AMC's roam between Bombay and Colombo showing themselves when they sank 4 TK's Even though I sank the AMC's now I have that and submarines always in the back of my mind and it draws resources away from the front.

Just my .02 ..

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Post #: 1096
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/12/2012 9:01:51 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Crackaces, that's my goal. I've been lazy with my subs this game. I finally mapped out a detailed use for them. The goal is to find his TK/AOs and start hammering them. I'm going through the Japanese expansion steps but not much else. I'm beginning to change that with my attempt at Umnak Island and Dutch Harbor.

I spent lunch planning my sub use. Most of the fleet and Glen subs are going to look for his SLOC. I need to make use of my fleet to ambush it soon, before he starts to build up his naval and air strength.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/12/2012 9:38:21 PM   
Chickenboy


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Crackaces, that's my goal. I've been lazy with my subs this game. I finally mapped out a detailed use for them. The goal is to find his TK/AOs and start hammering them. I'm going through the Japanese expansion steps but not much else. I'm beginning to change that with my attempt at Umnak Island and Dutch Harbor.

I spent lunch planning my sub use. Most of the fleet and Glen subs are going to look for his SLOC. I need to make use of my fleet to ambush it soon, before he starts to build up his naval and air strength.


If he gets lazy in supplying Perth from the Cape, a patrol zone in several of the hexes due West of Perth-maybe 15 hexes out-will find that SLOC and score.

ETA: When I say due West of Perth, I mean follow a straight line from Perth straight west to the edge of the map zone.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 4/12/2012 9:39:03 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/12/2012 9:42:34 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		It's funny you mention Perth, Chickenboy. I've been eyeing that base. I dropped a load of sub mines there and didn't see anything. I've got 4 subs I'm going to send there if I ever get the turn back from Ted.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 1:03:31 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I did not lose but half a dozen tankers in 1942 and still felt a severe fuel crunch in OZ and the South Pacific for the first 3/4th of that year. The Allied player has to be very careful with his tankers. However, due to the fact that there is very little going on for the Allies elsewhere and very little in the way of troops to support, there are more than plenty of xAKs to fill the gaps. I used xAKs carrying fuel all over the map during 1942, so even sinking some Allied tankers won't hurt his ability to move gas around..You really have to murder the Allied merchant fleet to accomplish that.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 1:06:03 AM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Thanks, you're full of good news.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 6:04:10 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Thanks, you're full of good news.

Yeah, but he's right. When I played the allies, I kept all the TK's working from off-map to near off-map bases. I then used xAK's to haul fuel around. yes, only 50% efficiency, but as he says: the allies get a lot of them and they don't have much else to do in '42. They have enough xAP's to move all the troops around that they need to.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 9:49:01 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Still waiting for a turn from Ted.


The Quest for the Allied SLOC

As I’ve mentioned numerous times, I haven’t found any of Ted’s SLOCs. Here’s my plan for finding some of them.

First, I am trying to identify his potential SLOCs and then go from there. Some are obvious and others, not so much.

1. Northern: This will be a relatively small one between the US and, well, I’m not so sure. One of the bases at the base of the Aleutians or somewhere in Alaska.
2. Pearl Harbor: This one is easy. US to Pearl.
3. Eastern Australia: US to ??? Maybe Noumea, maybe Sydney, maybe Wellington. Going to check them all out to see. I know ships are stationed at Sydney. I’ve never seen more than a couple ships moving to or from there though.
4. Western Australia: Abadon/Cape Town to Perth?
5. India: Abadon to India

So, now the question is how to divide up my scarce sub assets to find these SLOCs and then what to do about them.

Northern: The 5 Fleet (based out of Ominato, with the subs based out of Etorofu) is composed of:
1. CruDiv 21 – Tama & Kiso
2. DesRon 9 – Isuzu and 13x Minekazes
3. Several AMCs.
4. SubRon 5 - 6x fleet subs with 3x Glen subs to be added when built. Two Glens will be completed within the next week. They’re divided into 3 divisions of 2 fleet subs (+1 Glen sub).
One SubDiv is charged with checking out Anchorage. They should arrive within a day or two. The second is scouting the Dutch Harbor area right now (with a snap invasion of Dutch Harbor and Umnak Island to occur tomorrow). Things should be much easier once I get the Glens.

Pearl Harbor/West Coast: This is the responsibility of 4 Fleet, composed of:
1. SubRon 1 – 9x Glen subs and 5x midget carrying subs. It’s divided into 5x SubDivs.
One SubDiv is assigned to the US west coast and a second is assigned to east of Hawaii. I like to have subs to the W and SW of Hawaii to scout for fleets heading into the central Pacific but I’ve forgone that temporarily to hunt for SLOCs. The third Glen SubDiv is part of the Pacific sweep for SLOCs, which I’ll discuss in a minute. The 5x midget carrying subs is reserve for that mission alone. I don’t want to risk them for other missions yet. As soon as I find a port where Ted has ships (that isn’t mined), they’re heading there with a load of midget subs.

Eastern Australia: This is the responsibility of the 3 Fleet, based out of Truk, which is composed of:
1. 6 CruDiv – 4x Aobas
2. 16 CruDiv – CA Ashigara, CLs Nagara and Kuma
3. DesRon 3 – Sendai and 19x Fubukis
4. SubRon 3 – 8x fleet subs and 2x Glen subs (+1 Glen within a month)
5. SubRon 7 – 8x Ro class subs based out of Rabaul
The Ro class subs are attempting to cut off Pt. Moresby by sea. I’ve spread out SubRon 3 enough to make it pretty much ineffective except for the occasional lucky shot (sinking the xAK with the squadron of B-26s comes to mind). One Glen is on its way to scout out Noumea and the second is headed to Wellington. Two fleet subs are going to sweep the southern edge to see if Ted is trying to sneak along there to get convoys to southern Australia along that route. The remaining 6 fleet subs are part of the SLOC sweep.
Western Australia/India: This is the responsibility of 2 Fleet, composed of:
1. CruDiv 5 – CAs Haguro, Myoko and Nachi
2. DesRon 4 – Naka, 8 Kageros, 4 Asashios and 4 Akatsukis
3. SubRon 4 – 6 fleet subs, 2 Ro subs and eventually, 2 Glen subs
This is probably the weakest in subs for its mission. The 2x Ro class subs are based in Pt. Blair with a mission patrolling the Bay of Bengal/Ceylon and the 6x fleet subs are out of Saigon (Singapore eventually). One SubDiv is going to spread out west of Perth looking for that SLOC and the other will head to near Abadon to find that SLOC. There aren’t nearly enough subs for the mission unfortunately.

The only other subs not mentioned above are 4x minelaying subs (2 based at Saigon (Singapore eventually) and 2 based at Truk). Their mission is obvious. The other remaining subs are SubRon 2, composed of 6x fleet subs and 2x Glen subs. This SubRon is assigned to assist the Battle Fleet (1 Fleet) and/or KB. I’m going to use them as part of the SLOC sweep.

SLOC Sweep: I have a total of 12x fleet subs and 7x Glen subs assigned. Each fleet sub can observe 3 hexes (the hex it’s in and a hex to either side) and each Glen sub can observe 7 hexes (the hex it’s in and 3 hexes to either side). If stretched out, this sweep can be 85 hexes wide! Or, if I decide to, I can do half that and have a double row. Not sure what I’m going to do. I’m thinking of sweeping east from the Noumea area toward the SE corner of the map and then swing around to the north toward the US.

What I’ll probably do is have 2 lines. The first will be all the fleet subs and a couple Glen subs. The second will be the remaining Glen subs. When the first line locates an enemy TF, 1-2 Glens from the second line will shadow the TF to determine its route. I’m thinking 12 fleet and 2 Glens in the first line and 5 Glens in the second line.


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Post #: 1103
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 10:25:17 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I trust you're checking SigInt regularly? No joshing: I was able to piece together the scant SigInt data (radio transmission at xx,xx) and figure out at least two SLOCs, putting a submarine or two astride them for a successful intercept.

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(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 1104
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 10:28:08 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Hmm, I check it daily but usually focus on the heavy radio chatter stuff. I keep all my turns. I'll check out the last month.

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Post #: 1105
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 10:30:57 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I trust you're checking SigInt regularly? No joshing: I was able to piece together the scant SigInt data (radio transmission at xx,xx) and figure out at least two SLOCs, putting a submarine or two astride them for a successful intercept.


I agree. If you know where the signals are most prevalent, camp near those bases. I had high hopes of scouring the edges of the map, but it's too easy to use off map and duck in at different spots, zig-zag with waypoints, and in my opponent's case use big well protected convoys, thus also making them more rare.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1106
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/13/2012 11:32:38 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		I have found for the Americans at least that using submarines as a part of my overall strategic plan to be of good use. That is I interdict not so much to sink things although this is gravy ... but to influence and project power that moves toward a goal. Sinking a few merchants is not going to do much, but sinking stuff headed to where you want to project power goes toward that objective.

For example, for the Allies I focused on the Gilberts and Marshalls and now I have crimped the style of the IJ who is trying to move stuff here. Every tanker, AP or AK sunk is less stuff I am dealing with in this theater. More so as the theater escalates so has my submarine contacts as part of an overall plan. Every movement into the Marshalls is escorted by a plithroa of DD's buring fuel where as before a scant PB might escort something ..

It just also seems to me a more natural flow to combine forces to project power rather than to simply look for things to sink ...

Just a thought ...

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 1107
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/14/2012 2:24:37 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Crackaces, I agree with you, especially concerning Japanese subs. I have 2 objectives in mind.

1. I want to find Ted's SLOCs so I can attempt to manipulate them in my favor.
2. I want to damage his TK/AO fleet. I want to locate them (by objective #1) so I can use several potential means (carrier air, surface forces, ground based air or subs - or ideally, a combination of them) to damage it. Damage to his ability to move fuel will slow things down. He'll still be able to move fuel, but he'll have to use xAKs, which are much less efficient. It simply slows things down.

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Post #: 1108
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/14/2012 3:13:59 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

About wolfpacks, I don't get it. You put three subs in the same TF?


All four subs in separate TFs. They get set to four Patrol Zones that are right next (parallel tracks) to each other. The "legs" are 10 to 15 hexes long. In eastern Pacific, they tend to go from SW to NE direction. Make sure you add a second pilot for your Glen and train up in NavS to be able to tell the difference between a ship and a whale.


That looks like a far more logical approach to sub ops that I had'nt considered before. I think its a great idea, I hope you don't mind me pinching that idea to use in my games.


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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1109
RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 4/15/2012 3:14:33 AM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		There is something diabolical about IJ AARs.

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Post #: 1110
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