RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 2:15:24 PM

PaxMondo

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I've always been a fence sitter on the Frances. It is a good plane, no doubt about it. SR really only is a factor when first converting a group or if you ever have to rail a group. My issue is by the time I can get them, do I really need a 2E IJN bomber or am I already moving to kami's? By mid '43 or maybe a bit later, all of my Nettie groups are effective converted to patrol usages. LBA 2E's are so skittish in attack, they are best used as mop-up after a battle ... great role in that they can kill what might only have been wounded. But then, range is a bigger deal and so still not sure about Frances.

Now, there was a game where I did use them and I did like them. I got the upper hand and needed a good, strong 2E bomber to support attacks. Yeah, '43 and I was still on the offensive. Frances was a good performer then. So, as an offensive a/c I rate it quite good. But, most games by '43 I'm on defense.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 2:19:49 PM

ny59giants

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The Frances does have an SR of 4. But by the time they come out in numbers how often will you get the chance to have multiple strikes from either them or Betty/Nell?? The low speed of the Betty and having no armor makes them more targets than anything else, IMO. Somebody had mentioned the importance for strike coordination being somewhat tied into cruise speed. The various models of the A6 Zero is very close to what the cruise speed is for the Frances.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 4:16:29 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

The Frances does have an SR of 4. But by the time they come out in numbers how often will you get the chance to have multiple strikes from either them or Betty/Nell?? The low speed of the Betty and having no armor makes them more targets than anything else, IMO. Somebody had mentioned the importance for strike coordination being somewhat tied into cruise speed. The various models of the A6 Zero is very close to what the cruise speed is for the Frances.

I hear what you are saying about the speed and armor, and it does work if you have a target. In mid '43, what are your targets? 2E's just don't like going after CAP'd naval targets .... escorted or not. They don't like it. At least, I always have troubles with it and in many AAR's it is pretty obvious I'm not alone. And if it isn't CAP'd then the Nettie works just fine.

Now, if you have success getting 2E's to attack CV's with CAP, share!! 'Cause my results are not good. If they lift, and that is 50/50 at best, they get creamed during the attack and maybe 5% will even launch a torp. Can't think if I've even seen a hit. And losses are staggering. I get much better results with Jill or Grace. Higher hit percentage and lower losses. Now part of it might be the range ... longer range is a definite negative for NavStrike. But that isn't supporting Frances either, so ....

Hope you have some magic to share ...

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 6:35:06 PM

Mike Solli

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Interesting discussion guys. I've never gotten past mid-43, and that was with the old WitP. Gotta listen in some more before making a decision.

I ran a few numbers on certain Allied air frames and came up with the following available to Ted:

P-40E: -36
Kittyhawk IA (Aussie & NZ lumped together): -7
Hurricane I Trop: 19
Hurricane IIa Trop: 11
Hurricane IIb Trop: 107
Hurricane IIc Trop: 49 (I haven't seen any of these yet.)
P-39D: 120
B-17E: 81

Albacore: 81
Vildebeest: 19
Swordfish: 16

Obviously, my destroyed plane numbers are inaccurate. But, based on these numbers, Ted has got to be low on Kittyhawks and P-40Es, his only fighters at Pt. Moresby. It's also interesting that Ted is using only a squadron or two of Hurricanes to escort his bombers. I'm trying to get more fighters over Imphal, but as you'll see below, I'm lucky if I get 25% of a sentai to fly over Imphal.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 7:05:55 PM

Mike Solli

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22 Jun 42

Sub War

The Ro-64, off Pt. Moresby, ate a depth charge. Her damage is not too bad at 16-40(29)-0-0. She's headed to Rabaul for partial repairs and then to Truk to finish off her major damage. That ARD is a great asset at Truk. Right now there is 1 Ro class repairing and another waiting for the first to complete. Between the two, it'll take a month to finish off their repairs. There's another Ro class at Rabaul cleaning up the minor damage before heading to Truk for the major damage, and then is the Ro-64. That ARD will be busy for awhile. That leaves only 3x Ro class subs available to harass Ted off Pt. Moresby.

Burma

I was able to get 8x Oscars (of the 42 plane sentai) to LRCAP Imphal. They did good service though. They were met by 12x Hurricane IIbs and 72 various 2E bombers. The Hurricanes successfully held the Oscars off the bombers but they lost 5 shot down in return for 1x Oscar shot down.

MKB didn't launch, even though 2 Allied TFs were spotted 7 hexes away. I'm pretty sure they're both ASW TFs. I'm moving 2 hexes closer tomorrow and will give it one more shot. MKB was not spotted.

Other Stuff

Reinforcements:

1 Recon Bn
1 Mobile Infantry Reg
1 Mobile AA Bn
2 Recon Bn
2 Mobile Infantry Reg
2 Mobile FA Regiment
2 Mobile AA Bn
2 Mobile Engineer Reg

These units are the remaining units needed to create the 1 and 2 Tank Divisions. They're all at 79% strength too.

They'll move to Pt. Arthur where a TF is waiting to pick them up and transport them to Rangoon. The remainder of the units needed to form the divisions are already in Burma.

Shokaku and Zuikaku have completed their upgrades. They (and Unyu) will be escorted to Davao (where KB still is residing) and the Akagi and Kaga, along with 6x Shiratsuyus, will steam back to the Home Islands where they will begin upgrading in July. The Ryujo and Soryu are also eligible for upgrades. The Soryu and the remaining 4 Shiratsuyus will get their upgrades done when the Akagi and Kaga are done and the Ryujo (currently attached to MKB) will begin hers when MKB reaches Singapore.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 7:08:48 PM

ny59giants

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Pax - I'm in my first PBEM as Japan. We have reached mid-Jan '44. I've had limited naval attacks by either Betty/Nell and Frances. The Frances seem to do better. Since this is my first game, the learning curve is high and I'm doing some experimenting to try things. Anything flying combat missions below 300 mph is just target practice now.

Mike - Your math will not add up as many air units are withdrawn with the planes going back into the pool with some PP earned. The 4 or 5 P-40Es air groups that come into OZ from mid-Jan to mid-March '42 attached to ABDA are withdrawn and the planes go into the pool. So there is a bump of over 100 P-40s. I traded 25 P-40Bs and the older fighters for 10 to 15 P-38s for air groups that are permanently restricted to USA. They just train up pilots.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 1/5/2013 7:09:48 PM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 7:11:36 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Mike - Your math will not add up as many air units are withdrawn with the planes going back into the pool with some PP earned. The 4 or 5 P-40Es air groups that come into OZ from mid-Jan to mid-March '42 attached to ABDA are withdrawn and the planes go into the pool. So there is a bump of over 100 P-40s. I traded 25 P-40Bs and the older fighters for 10 to 15 P-38s for air groups that are permanently restricted to USA. They just train up pilots.

You're right, Michael. I didn't add the P-40Es in the restricted air groups. Of course Ted can swap them out for obsolete planes. Thanks for the great news.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/5/2013 8:33:02 PM

ny59giants

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IJNAF fighter pilots - You can put 5 to 10 in Reserve and then pull in rookie pilots for your CV based to overfill. I put them on training of 30 to 100% depending where they are at or going. Almost all the training efforts will go towards the rookies and they will gain some experience quickly. You can do the same for your shore based Zero. Another possibility is to have some of your restricted FPs in Japan do pilot training. In my Allied game, I have 2x 18 plane Kingfishers training up Navy pilots as I have no other choice except the actual CVs as the Americans have the shore based fighters belong to the Marines.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/6/2013 4:02:20 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Pax - I'm in my first PBEM as Japan. We have reached mid-Jan '44. I've had limited naval attacks by either Betty/Nell and Frances. The Frances seem to do better.

If you're able to get 2E's to attack CAP'd CV's, share!!! Obviously, I'm doing something wrong (or not enough right).

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/6/2013 3:34:13 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

IJNAF fighter pilots - You can put 5 to 10 in Reserve and then pull in rookie pilots for your CV based to overfill. I put them on training of 30 to 100% depending where they are at or going. Almost all the training efforts will go towards the rookies and they will gain some experience quickly. You can do the same for your shore based Zero. Another possibility is to have some of your restricted FPs in Japan do pilot training. In my Allied game, I have 2x 18 plane Kingfishers training up Navy pilots as I have no other choice except the actual CVs as the Americans have the shore based fighters belong to the Marines.

Michael, I've got every one of my restricted IJN fighter units training at the max number of pilots, along with several FP units. The only Zero unit in the frontline that is not potentially in combat is the 31 plane Chitose daitai in 4 Fleet area. I've been thinking about adding rookies there as you say. The only thing I haven't done is to put rookies in KB. I need to do that because they rarely fight. Gotta do that next turn.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/6/2013 4:22:26 PM

Mike Solli

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23 Jun 42

Sub War

The Ro-62 picked off another xAKL off Pt. Moresby today.

SE Fleet

The B-17s trashed Buna.

Other Stuff

If you recall, I've had 5 subs hit by depth charges. All 5 will survive. Here's their states:

I-123: 64-12(12)-7-0, currently repairing at Dutch Harbor.
I-158: Fully repaired at Soerabaja. Back in action.
I-18: 42-45(28)-7-0, 4 days out of Kwajalein.
Ro-34: 17-5-0-0, 1 day out of Singapore.
Ro-64: 16-38(29)-0-0, 4 days out of Rabaul.

Palembang's forts reached their goal of level 6. All construction is done there. Airfield is 5 and port is 4. The remaining engineer regiment is headed to Babo to increase it's port to level 2 and to build forts there. I can't get the oil out of there fast enough.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/6/2013 5:30:05 PM

Mike Solli

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While waiting for the turn, I've been planning and plotting. I have decided to convert the 31 Sentai from Anns to the Nick FB. It'll cost 270 PPS to do but I have 1500 in the pool after changing all the units from the 1 & 2 Tank Divisions from Kwantung to 25 Army.

Anyway, the Nick has armor and a 20mm cannon. I'm sending it to 5 Air Division (SE Fleet AO). I'm hoping it will have an impact on the B-17s. Can't hurt.

I'm also flying in engineers to Goodenough Island and Salamaua to build up their airfields to level 2. Should have started this long ago.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 1:04:18 AM

Mike Solli

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24 Jun 42

Sub War

The I-ll caught the British TK british Motorist and hit her with 4 of 6 launched torpedoes. Very nice and another TK gone.

Burma

5 Oscars caught 9 Hurricanes escorting 66 2E bombers over Imphal. Once again, the Hurricanes prevented the Oscars from reaching the bombers and 2 fighters were lost on each side.

A convoy of supply just reached Rangoon. I hope the supply will diffuse throughout Burma giving the bases there enough to resume airfield construction.

Other Stuff

The 31 Sentai converted to Nicks and I replaced the pilots with fighter pilots, some of the best in the reserve as well as an elite pilot, led by the best commander available. They'll travel to SE Fleet area once the planes repair. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they may do a little damage to the B-17s.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 1:23:24 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The only thing I haven't done is to put rookies in KB. I need to do that because they rarely fight. Gotta do that next turn.

Yep,

Only way. Too many groups there that you have to use for training when the KB isn't on a tactical mission. Pain shuffling the pilots around, but otherwise ...

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 1:24:17 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

While waiting for the turn, I've been planning and plotting. I have decided to convert the 31 Sentai from Anns to the Nick FB. It'll cost 270 PPS to do but I have 1500 in the pool after changing all the units from the 1 & 2 Tank Divisions from Kwantung to 25 Army.

Anyway, the Nick has armor and a 20mm cannon. I'm sending it to 5 Air Division (SE Fleet AO). I'm hoping it will have an impact on the B-17s. Can't hurt.

I'm also flying in engineers to Goodenough Island and Salamaua to build up their airfields to level 2. Should have started this long ago.

Watching to see if this works for you. I've only had limited success.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 2:08:43 AM

Mike Solli

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No other options Pax. The Nick now and the Tojo come August are all that are on the horizon for awhile. I'm bringing in some 10 cm. AA guns but I have no confidence in them either.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 2:25:40 AM

Mikawa

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Mike, I believe you we're thinking about this earlier....how about a fast bombardment TF hitting the airfield his bombers are based on - if on the coast. Could use subs to determine if mines are present and use KB for long range CAP. Not without risk, but could buy some time.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 4:47:43 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

No other options Pax. The Nick now and the Tojo come August are all that are on the horizon for awhile. I'm bringing in some 10 cm. AA guns but I have no confidence in them either.

I know. '42 is a tough time against the 4E's as the IJA fighters are so undergunned. Difficult.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/7/2013 5:58:16 AM

koniu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

No other options Pax. The Nick now and the Tojo come August are all that are on the horizon for awhile. I'm bringing in some 10 cm. AA guns but I have no confidence in them either.

I know. '42 is a tough time against the 4E's as the IJA fighters are so undergunned. Difficult.

So You telling `43 and `44 will be easier

Wait it will not. I have no problems with 4E only when they stay on ground.

PS. For me Ki-45 is performing well against 4E as long as he not need to face enemy fighters.
Also Ki-44IIc is working well. But true is that until N1K1 George Japan have no 4E killer.

< Message edited by koniu -- 1/7/2013 6:16:14 AM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/8/2013 3:38:57 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

So You telling `43 and `44 will be easier Wait it will not. I have no problems with 4E only when they stay on ground.

LOL!!!

You're right of course!

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/8/2013 9:25:58 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

While waiting for the turn, I've been planning and plotting. I have decided to convert the 31 Sentai from Anns to the Nick FB. It'll cost 270 PPS to do but I have 1500 in the pool after changing all the units from the 1 & 2 Tank Divisions from Kwantung to 25 Army.

Anyway, the Nick has armor and a 20mm cannon. I'm sending it to 5 Air Division (SE Fleet AO). I'm hoping it will have an impact on the B-17s. Can't hurt.

I'm also flying in engineers to Goodenough Island and Salamaua to build up their airfields to level 2. Should have started this long ago.

Nicks have been decent when just against 4Es, and have nie LR CAP range too. Best not to get them into scrapes with sweeping fighters though. Strangely, the few times I've put them into sweeps they did very well, probably because the numbers were present and the armor and high durability let them stay i nthe battle much longer than an Oscar, zero or even a Tojo.

A very versatile plane. I'm still building the Ia and will continue to do so for ground attack and even shipping attacks at low level and in the kami role once that is available.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/8/2013 11:05:36 AM

Empire101

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

While waiting for the turn, I've been planning and plotting. I have decided to convert the 31 Sentai from Anns to the Nick FB. It'll cost 270 PPS to do but I have 1500 in the pool after changing all the units from the 1 & 2 Tank Divisions from Kwantung to 25 Army.

Anyway, the Nick has armor and a 20mm cannon. I'm sending it to 5 Air Division (SE Fleet AO). I'm hoping it will have an impact on the B-17s. Can't hurt.

I'm also flying in engineers to Goodenough Island and Salamaua to build up their airfields to level 2. Should have started this long ago.

Nicks have been decent when just against 4Es, and have nie LR CAP range too. Best not to get them into scrapes with sweeping fighters though. Strangely, the few times I've put them into sweeps they did very well, probably because the numbers were present and the armor and high durability let them stay i nthe battle much longer than an Oscar, zero or even a Tojo.

A very versatile plane. I'm still building the Ia and will continue to do so for ground attack and even shipping attacks at low level and in the kami role once that is available.

+1
I've found that the Nick does have some success against the 4E's and its high durability makes it quite versatile in other roles.
You just have to keep them away from Allied fighters thats all!!

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/8/2013 11:37:21 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikawa

Mike, I believe you we're thinking about this earlier....how about a fast bombardment TF hitting the airfield his bombers are based on - if on the coast. Could use subs to determine if mines are present and use KB for long range CAP. Not without risk, but could buy some time.

I've confirmed that the B-17s are based at Townsville. I'm sending an Ro class sub there to see if it's mined. I'm going to move 8x CAs to bombard the place. I'll see if I can scrounge up more. BBs would be nice but they're too slow. I'll do as you suggest and LRCAP them with KB. Right now KB is just the Soryu. The Akagi and Kaga are headed to Japan to upgrade and the Shokaku and Zuikaku are headed back from upgrading in Japan. Sho & Zui will arrive in a couple of days. Then I'll move the fleets out to the SE Fleet area to do the dirty deed.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/8/2013 11:41:09 PM

Mike Solli

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I intend to keep the Nicks away from enemy fighters. Right now, Ted uses his B-17s unescorted. I'll have them LRCAP over an airfield and wait for the B-17s to arrive. They will.

They're still repairing in Bangkok. Once repaired, it'll take a few days to get to Rabaul.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/9/2013 12:35:37 AM

Mike Solli

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25 Jun 42

Sub War

The I-11 caught an xAK off the US west coast and put a torpedo into her. It was 11 hexes off the coast so hopefully she'll sink.

Burma

Good ole MKB was sitting 4-5 hexes away from 2 ASW TFs for several days and never launched. I sent the dopes home. Ridiculous.

I had 6 Oscars (woopee!!) catch 94x 2E bombers and they shot down 2 Wellingtons. Today was the day I needed 50 fighters over Imphal.

Rotten supply situation.

Other Stuff

The Nakajima Ha-45 advanced a month to Aug 43. They are used for the Grace, Myrt, George, Frances, Peggy and Frank. I'm going to need a lot of them.

I added rookie fighters to KB. Hopefully, that'll get me more fighter pilots down the road.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 1/10/2013 1:15:58 AM >

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/9/2013 2:21:11 AM

ny59giants

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For some reason, I've had good luck, at times, getting fighters to shoot down bombers when they are set 3k below the bombers. You might try setting a group there.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/10/2013 1:22:49 AM

Mike Solli

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26 Jun 42

Short and tough day today.

Over Imphal, I traded 3 Oscars for 3 Hurricanes escorting some 65x 2E bombers.

Pt. Moresby started out well with 28 Oscars shooting down 3x P-40s for no loss. Then, a small force of 9 Betties escorted by 11 Zeros went after a convoy in Pt. Moresby. They were countered by 21x P-39Ds and 3x P-40Es. The Zeros couldn't hold them off, losing two of their number. The Allied fighters then proceeded to shoot down 8 Betties. The last remaining Betty missed. There were no Allied losses.

In Australia, 2x B-26s were shot down over Daly Waters by Zeros. Ted determined the Zeros were stationed at Darwin and sent 6 B-17s there to visit. They did light damage to the airfield, and a B-17 and defending Zero were shot down.

Reinforcement: 54 JNAF AF Unit - Headed to Rabaul.

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/10/2013 1:31:24 AM

Mike Solli

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27 Jun 42

SE Fleet

Ted sent his 58 4E bombers to Salamaua again trashing the place. Just one more target for Ted to send his bombers after.

Over Pt. Moresby, 28 Oscars met 7 P-40s, shooting down 3 Allied fighters for no loss.

A night Sally bombing raid destroyed 2x A20As on the ground. Ted has bombers at PM now.

Burma

The highlight of the day occurred here. I located 2x 27 plane Zero daitai in positions to LRCAP Imphal and it worked like a charm! They were rested and sent 52 planes to scour the skies over Imphal. Ted sent a daily bombing raid to my army there, and this time it was unescorted!

Here are the dirty details:

52 Zeros - 1 op loss and no pilots lost.

12 Beaufort V - 4 shot down.
28 Hudson IIIa - 12 shot down and 1 op loss.
38 Blenheim IV - 2 shot down and 1 op loss.
16 Wellington Ic - 6 shot down and 1 op loss.

29% losses! I suspect it will make little difference, but it did give my Zeros some valuable experience and I hope Ted will pause for a bit. It was fun to watch.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 1/10/2013 1:42:59 AM >

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/10/2013 4:10:39 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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BANZAI!!!!

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Pax

(in reply to Mike Solli)

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RE: Once Again into the Breech - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A) - 1/10/2013 8:31:04 AM

Empire101

Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

29% losses! I suspect it will make little difference, but it did give my Zeros some valuable experience and I hope Ted will pause for a bit. It was fun to watch.

I bet it was!!!

Banzai!!

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Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 1620

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