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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: Pelton vs 8421

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 12:44:19 AM

Peltonx

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Turn 53

German armament Pts in pool: 81,000
German manpower in pool: 94,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 99
SHC units in a pocket: 23
Enemy KIA this turn: 22,000 Enemy KIA:4,713,000
SHC OOB: 6,978,000
SHC net OOB change: + 125,000
GHC OOB: 3,502,000
GHC net OOB change: +16,000

Pocket holds and units are ready for next pocket. 8421 has finally pulled the rest of his corp units of the front lines after the painful loss of 9 corp.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 12:54:44 AM

Peltonx

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Turn 54

German armament Pts in pool: 91,000
German manpower in pool: 87,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 122
SHC units in a pocket:0
Enemy KIA this turn: 224,000 Enemy KIA:4,937,000
SHC OOB: 6,785,000
SHC net OOB change: - 193,000
GHC KIA this turn: 00,000 GHC KIA:1,862,000
GHC OOB: 3,481,000
GHC net OOB change: -21,000

One of my best games ever as far as killing men almost 5 million, but 8421 still has a massive army 6.8 million. Bigger then any SHC army pre 1.05.
8421 is building the right units also, mech corp and cav. No rifle corps and he has massive amounts of rifle divisions.
The army Flaviusx keeps telling poeple to build. 8421 has solid lines every wheres and allot of depth where ever I have panzers.

I had no snow pockets so this game is 100% 1.06. I did the clear weather pockets only.

8421 knows the game mechanics/logistic, but his tactics seem a litte weak. 8421 is milking allot more men from
the current system then anyone I have every played.

The one up side so far it will cost 8421 about 660+ AP pts to replase his lost units or 11+ turns. 1942 is mainly about the AP crunch. If as the GHC you can drop the SHC unit count that thins out the lines. This will cause pocketing to be easyer over time one can weaken the Red Machine and hopefully you can gain space and roll up manpower centers, with Moscow being the end game of summer.

AGN: I am tring to push things towards Moscow, but there are no weak spots in his lines. 3 deep everywheres. Probably going to have to pull back to fort line and wait to see if AGS can open up something.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 12:58:48 AM

Peltonx

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AGC: I finish off pocket and make a push towards Tomboy. I manage to break through but have nothing left to exploit.
8421 lines seem to have no weak spots.

My forses are in good shape, only 1/2 my mech units made the push and only 2 infantry corp.

Looks like this will be a very hard nut to crack.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 1:00:28 AM

Peltonx

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AGS: Basicly holding the line.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 2:53:02 AM

Flaviusx

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This is more the way to do it. But he could improve even on this. Since your panzers are all committed to one spot, the entire rest of the front can act like a reserve and he could easily strip units from elsewhere to flood your potential breakthrough zone. He doesn't actually need to be 3 deep everywhere. Although he may want to keep some forts in the rear even in the quiet spots.

In the absence of mobile forces a single line can stop the Axis or at least keep it contained. The guys in the rear can dig in and prevent fort decay, but that's not strictly speaking necessary. Actually I'd be putting some mobile forces in those quiet spots and get them blooded with easy attacks.

He's keeping his mobile corps away from the front line, and that's the way to do it. (Even if you're doing hit and runs with them.)

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 2:55:35 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This is more the way to do it. But he could improve even on this. Since your panzers are all committed to one spot, the entire rest of the front can act like a reserve and he could easily strip units from elsewhere to flood your potential breakthrough zone. He doesn't actually need to be 3 deep everywhere. Although he may want to keep some forts in the rear even in the quiet spots.

In the absence of mobile forces a single line can stop the Axis or at least keep it contained. The guys in the rear can dig in and prevent fort decay, but that's not strictly speaking necessary. Actually I'd be putting some mobile forces in those quiet spots and get them blooded with easy attacks.

He's keeping his mobile corps away from the front line, and that's the way to do it. (Even if you're doing hit and runs with them.)

He is doing all of what you preach Pastor Flaviusx.

I am a few turns behind.

8421 is a convert of yours.

I write what I think the same day as turn. So even my thought are a few days lagging.

The random server games yield some gold from time to time.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/16/2012 2:58:56 AM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 4:25:20 PM

Seminole

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quote:

The one up side so far it will cost 8421 about 660+ AP pts to replase his lost units or 11+ turns.

You know that at various times the Soviets get bonus wads of AP, right?

Can Flavius or someone else indicate when those times are?

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/16/2012 5:03:11 PM

Flaviusx

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There's Voronezh Front and SW Front in 1942. 250 APs. A couple more fronts after that (Steppe in 43 and I believe another one in 44) but that's about it. The big AP dumps come in 41.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:02:57 PM

Peltonx

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Turn 55

German armament Pts in pool: 44,000
German manpower in pool: 83,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 122
SHC units in a pocket:1
Enemy KIA this turn: 32,000 Enemy KIA:4,969,000
SHC OOB: 6,907,000
SHC net OOB change: +121,000
GHC KIA this turn: 41,000 GHC KIA:1,903,000
GHC OOB: 3,461,000
GHC net OOB change: -20,000

Despite 600,000 in loses over the last 4 turn 8421 has mounted 2 small breakthroughs.

Other then his foolish tactical attacks during the clear turns, his army would be over 7.5 million men. Which would be larger then any army I have faced to date on July 1st 1942 including the 12 GC 41-45 1.04. The 7 million was larger then Hooopers and that was under 1.04. It would appear 8421 has found a way around the lower manpower numbers?

Clearly 8421 knows the ins and outs of the game mechanics better then both Kamil, Hoooper and anyone else for that matter I have played or seen in any AAR's post 1.04.

I have pulled out of the thrust I made last turn and moved 1 panzer and 1 infantry corp to the northern breakthrough.

I also left 1 panzer an infantry corp near Lipetsk. The rest of the panzers and infantry moved between the river bends to start clearing that out as I can defend the flanks and this will shorten my lines. Plus pick off manpower centers.

Most of the infantry morale now is over 70, but i have a 12 units still in low 50's.

Pelton

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:04:38 PM

Peltonx

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Southern breakthrough.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:06:14 PM

Peltonx

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AGC

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:06:44 PM

Peltonx

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AGS

I was able to releave the cut off units and push into fort belt some.

Infantry and Panzer units are in jump off postions for next turn.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:08:39 PM

Peltonx

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Loses

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:09:13 PM

Peltonx

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OOB

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:17:51 PM

Q-Ball

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8421 does have the right idea for defense, except for these Tank Attacks. Those are not at all wise. The best use of Tank Corps at this point is to place them in the rear to stop breakthroughs, and maybe set to RESERVE to spoil attacks. If a Sapper is attached to them, they are actually pretty good diggers, too. They can be quickly mustered to counterattack Panzer units or potentially releive pockets. You need that mobility in the rear, not penetrating German lines, where they will likely get cut-off and destroyed by a German player like Pelton who knows what he is doing.

It takes time to get Tank Corps fully trained, so even if he replaces those units, it will cost APs and time later on. Plus, he is losing alot of Vehicles, which will also prevent him from attacking alot in early 1943. (replacing all those tanks is easy, though)

Those attacks, while temporarily irritating, are a big mistake for him

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:32:00 PM

Peltonx

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I beleive his past German players he was already driving west by this point June 1942. So he is doing what has been working in his past games, as was the case with M60 being 6-0 before playing me with zero games getting to the summer of 1942

Again there are very few good German players as the learning curve is so steep and one screw-up and your toast come 1942.

I think the SHC Blizzard O is still more powerful then was historical and that is why so many German players quit before summer of 1942.

If I am not carefull the same will happen to me hehehe. I have made a few small screw-ups myself the first 2 turns of summer. I have made the adjustments and now am about to start grinding away.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/18/2012 3:34:20 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 3:57:54 PM

Flaviusx

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I kinda like the tank attacks...except for the part about them ending up on the front line. That's a no no. It's good to get a few licks in here and there, but they gotta scurry back behind the rifle units at the end of the turn. Mobile defense from the rear is their primary mission at this stage, but if you can get some easy wins here on soft parts of the front, by all means take them.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 10:11:21 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I kinda like the tank attacks...except for the part about them ending up on the front line. That's a no no. It's good to get a few licks in here and there, but they gotta scurry back behind the rifle units at the end of the turn. Mobile defense from the rear is their primary mission at this stage, but if you can get some easy wins here on soft parts of the front, by all means take them.

That's a good point, but I think 8421's attacks were more tank BREAKTHROUGHS. That is very unwise. Breakthroughs are more likely to end-up with dead Russians than dead Germans at this stage.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/18/2012 11:38:21 PM

randallw

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What's that Soviet unit painted red inside it's envelope?

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/19/2012 5:11:52 PM

Peltonx

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Turn 56

German armament Pts in pool: 47,000
German manpower in pool: 81,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 123
SHC units in a pocket:7 tank corp./7 Rifle Divisions
Enemy KIA this turn: 83,000 Enemy KIA:5,052,000
SHC OOB: 6,900,000
SHC net OOB change: -7,000
GHC KIA this turn: 46,000 GHC KIA:1,949,000
GHC OOB: 3,445,000
GHC net OOB change: -16,000

Good turn over-all hopefully this will get the pocketing rolling again. His OOB dropped 7,000. Hopefully I have drained his manpower pool finally and can start chipping away at his OOB and AP count.

56th PZ corp and 38th corp from 18th Army arrive and cut off a few tank corp and push back several stacks of rifle divisions.

In the far north 9th army and Fins start with drawing to the fort line as there is nothing to gain at this time in AGN area.

AGC: Destroys one corp. Puts 1 panzer Corp in reserve and starts digging in until objectives have been reach in AGS area.

AGS: GHC is finally able to launch an PZ offensive supported by 3 infantry Armies. 3 thrusts are made yielding 2 pockets. The northern most thrust is above the river line and has out flanked all the river lines in the Don bend. The southern most thrust is below the Donets bend. Only 1, 0 level fort line now to freedom.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/19/2012 5:12:26 PM

Peltonx

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AGS

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/20/2012 12:38:33 AM

Peltonx

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Turn 57

German armament Pts in pool: 23,000
German manpower in pool: 81,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 130
SHC units in a pocket: 6 tank Corp./ 10 Rifle Divisions
Enemy KIA this turn: 113,000 Enemy KIA:5,165,000
SHC OOB: 6,903,000
SHC net OOB change: +3,000
GHC KIA this turn: 52,000 GHC KIA:2,001,000
GHC OOB: 3,407,000
GHC net OOB change: -38,000

So far 8421 has been able to keep pushing down my OOB and tank numbers by doing several counter attacks along the front. His counter attacks are mostly carried out using infantry divisions. His defenses are single unit with a strong point every 3 hex in 3rd row. Then tank units in reserve to counter attack. I now have to limit attacks to small pockets to make sure my stacks are 20+ CV or behind rivers.

Tempo now is to simply pocket units and not try for a major breakout for a while as it is wasting my strength. I have destroyed about 800 AP worth of units from turn 51 to present turn so I am at least making a dent in his unit count and can see lines thinning now from 5 to 7 deep near panzer spearhead to only 3 to 5. �IF� I can get a few more turns of +10 pockets I might be able to go for a larger one, if I can keep my OOB up and morale climbing.

AGN: Pulling back to fort lines. Then hoping to go into static mode.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/20/2012 12:39:40 AM

Peltonx

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AGC: The 2 tank Corp. are cut off again and infantry push north. Basically going to try and straighten lines over summer and pocket a few units if possible. 1 more Inf Corp. will arrive next turn to help with operations.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/20/2012 12:40:41 AM

Peltonx

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AGS: Destroys 7 infantry divisions (70-80 AP to replace) and pockets 4 tank Corp. and forms a 2nd pocket of 10 rifle divisions. All of 18th Army is finally at the front so I am hoping for another pocket next turn. Allot of mech and panzer units rested this turn.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/22/2012 12:53:36 AM

Peltonx

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Turn 58

German armament Pts in pool: 23,000
German manpower in pool: 81,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 130
SHC units in a pocket: 10 Rifle Divisions
Enemy KIA this turn: 113,000 Enemy KIA:5,165,000
SHC OOB: 6,903,000
SHC net OOB change: +3,000
GHC KIA this turn: 52,000 GHC KIA:2,001,000
GHC OOB: 3,407,000
GHC net OOB change: -38,000

AGN: 8421 ia able to get the tanks Corp. back behind the lines. I am just going to hold on until 18th Army is done in south then rail them up here and mess around. 8421 lines in south are weakening a little.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/22/2012 1:07:24 AM

Peltonx

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AGS:8421 reopens pockets and I close them again tight and I move panzers into position for next pocket.

I should be able to wipe out pocketed units and pocket and 10ish next turn.

Plus 3 Corp from 18th army will rail out to AGN trouble spots.

8421 lines are weakening down here so I don't think I need as many units to keep bagging units anyways.
Hopefully 4th PG and 18th can start bagging units in center.

2nd row of forts are being built also with a 10+ hex buffer before fort lines in center where it counts the most.

Bagging all those tanks Corp really dropped 8421 tank numbers. All those Corp would have been a very powerfull forse by next summer.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/22/2012 8:39:19 PM

Peltonx

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Turn 59

German armament Pts in pool: 0
German manpower in pool: 74,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 140
SHC units in a pocket: 10 Rifle Divisions
Enemy KIA this turn: 121,000 Enemy KIA: 5,385,000
SHC OOB: 6,874,000
SHC net OOB change: +28,000
GHC KIA this turn: 42,000 GHC KIA:2,121,000
GHC OOB: 3,350,000
GHC net OOB change: -43,000

More troops sent north as the little problem becomes bigger.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/22/2012 8:40:08 PM

Peltonx

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In south 10 infantry divisions are removed from the game and another 11 rifle divisions and 3 tank Corp cut off.

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RE: Pelton vs 8421 - 2/25/2012 11:57:39 AM

Peltonx

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Turn 60

German armament Pts in pool: 0
German manpower in pool: 65,000
SHC units destroyed after November 1st 1941: 140
SHC units in a pocket: 10 Rifle Divisions + 2 Calvary Corp
Enemy KIA this turn: 85,000 Enemy KIA: 5,450,000
SHC OOB: 6,874,000
SHC net OOB change: +25,000
GHC KIA this turn: 31,000 GHC KIA:2,152,000
GHC OOB: 3,350,000
GHC net OOB change: -3,000

Over-all 8421 has done very good for 1942 summer. I have been able to take out allot of units ( 140) so far, but 8421 lines remain strong enough to prevent a general break through. He spent his AP's on rifle divisions and Tank/Cav Corp.

I have been able to pick up some space to trade off and have started the Western Wall.

AGC: Most of 18th army arrives and 4th PG. Looking to flatten out lines in this area and to north.