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RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:09:36 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Okinawa.




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Post #: 3901
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:09:54 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Naha, today's prize.




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Post #: 3902
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:10:13 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Air losses.




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Post #: 3903
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:10:28 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Ship losses.




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Post #: 3904
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:10:47 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		The Intel screen. For a very long time we struggled getting our land losses down to a 2 to 1 ratio; now they are about 3 to 2 with the promise of significant gains in the near future.




I should add that Naha probably is not showing up much in the values as the base is so badly damaged.

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< Message edited by witpqs -- 3/17/2016 2:17:05 AM >

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Post #: 3905
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:16:18 AM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		congratulations! (celebratory gunfire)
some nice experience gains as well.

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Post #: 3906
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:40:26 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Ship losses.




Now that you seem to have taken out any IJN vessels capable of minesweeping in the Singers area, you could consider mining the two most likely exit hexes. The mines should last a while in shallow water.

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Post #: 3907
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:41:15 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

congratulations! (celebratory gunfire)
some nice experience gains as well.

Thanks! I hope so but I haven't checked.

Now to see how the part of the plan works out about having troops already at Nago to prevent retreat. Can we tear up the ex-defenders of Naha before they can get behind fortress walls at Nago?

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RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:43:15 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Ship losses.




Now that you seem to have taken out any IJN vessels capable of minesweeping in the Singers area, you could consider mining the two most likely exit hexes. The mines should last a while in shallow water.

I don't want to be sweeping my own mines, though. Besides, mines are somewhat nerfed on the supply side in this version of the scenario. I'll save what I have for the Home Islands.

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Post #: 3909
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:59:41 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

congratulations! (celebratory gunfire)
some nice experience gains as well.

Thanks! I hope so but I haven't checked.

Now to see how the part of the plan works out about having troops already at Nago to prevent retreat. Can we tear up the ex-defenders of Naha before they can get behind fortress walls at Nago?

You can beat them up in the Naha hex but that will just hasten their move to the Nago hex. Try lifting some of the AV out of Naha and dropping it in Nago (assuming the coastal defences there are not too bad) to take the place before they arrive. Not sure how lack of prep will play out when your troops already have a beachhead established.


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Post #: 3910
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 3:10:54 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Of course air strikes assisted also but are not shown above. I'm surprised we managed to burn up all the defenders' supply.


I think this is the advantage of the Allies in 1944. Stacking limits, and the supply limits of the base sets the constraints on the defense. Constant bombardment wears away the supplies causes disruption

Nice Job!

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Post #: 3911
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 3:11:42 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

congratulations! (celebratory gunfire)
some nice experience gains as well.

Thanks! I hope so but I haven't checked.

Now to see how the part of the plan works out about having troops already at Nago to prevent retreat. Can we tear up the ex-defenders of Naha before they can get behind fortress walls at Nago?

You can beat them up in the Naha hex but that will just hasten their move to the Nago hex. Try lifting some of the AV out of Naha and dropping it in Nago (assuming the coastal defences there are not too bad) to take the place before they arrive. Not sure how lack of prep will play out when your troops already have a beachhead established.


Not sure what you mean - I already have lots of troops in Nago so there will not be any retreat into that hex. They will have to move there the hard way, under naval and air bombardment the whole way, plus ground attacks at the end of each turn. I think the road from Naha to Nago is half road/half trail, so it should be a slow slog.

BTW, forgot to mention that was probably the last turn until about Monday.

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Post #: 3912
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 3:12:08 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

Of course air strikes assisted also but are not shown above. I'm surprised we managed to burn up all the defenders' supply.


I think this is the advantage of the Allies in 1944. Stacking limits, and the supply limits of the base sets the constraints on the defense. Constant bombardment wears away the supplies causes disruption

Nice Job!

Thanks!

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Post #: 3913
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 5:15:25 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

congratulations! (celebratory gunfire)
some nice experience gains as well.

Thanks! I hope so but I haven't checked.

Now to see how the part of the plan works out about having troops already at Nago to prevent retreat. Can we tear up the ex-defenders of Naha before they can get behind fortress walls at Nago?

You can beat them up in the Naha hex but that will just hasten their move to the Nago hex. Try lifting some of the AV out of Naha and dropping it in Nago (assuming the coastal defences there are not too bad) to take the place before they arrive. Not sure how lack of prep will play out when your troops already have a beachhead established.


Not sure what you mean - I already have lots of troops in Nago so there will not be any retreat into that hex. They will have to move there the hard way, under naval and air bombardment the whole way, plus ground attacks at the end of each turn. I think the road from Naha to Nago is half road/half trail, so it should be a slow slog.

BTW, forgot to mention that was probably the last turn until about Monday.

Retreating troops frequently move an entire hex distance in one go, regardless of the usual movement rates. I have seen this happen in dense jungle/rough with no roads. Since Nago was and still is Japanese, the hex sides there will belong to the IJA and his troops will have no problem crossing. Bombing and bombardment will certainly slow and disrupt them, but a DA or SA could retreat them.

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Post #: 3914
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 5:42:40 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I agree they will have no problem crossing the hex side, but they cannot be retreated into a hex where enemy units are present. So ground assaults with 2 to 1 odds or better will not help them move faster. I'm just hoping to get enough shots at them so they are nothing but mouths to feed if they do make it to friendly lines.


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Post #: 3915
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 5:45:50 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I agree they will have no problem crossing the hex side, but they cannot be retreated into a hex where enemy units are present. So ground assaults with 2 to 1 odds or better will not help them move faster. I'm just hoping to get enough shots at them so they are nothing but mouths to feed if they do make it to friendly lines.


Ah - did not know that they cannot retreat if your troops are in the hex. That makes all the difference. Have at 'em!

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Post #: 3916
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 5:58:54 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		And this...





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Post #: 3917
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 11:04:09 AM   
Drakanel

 

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Status: offline 		Congratulations! That went well. With Naha in your hands, things improve for the other bases you have to conquer as well. Once you repair Naha, that is

Those troops could be all dead before reaching Nago actually, if you factor in other land assaults, bombardments and such... Nago will take some time though. I think you said before that you'll not march the troops from Naha to Nago, right?

Good progress in China also, and the port strikes went very well. Still, all those bombs on the two battleships are 500 lbs ones. Most likely they all bounced off and just started fires / did system damage. I wonder how really damaged they are... And what can they still do. Are they even capable of attempting to flee?

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Post #: 3918
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:36:27 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
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Status: offline 		The BB fires started in the morning strike were all out in the afternoon strike. I estimate system damage in the 35-45 range, some minor float and engineering damage. The major port helped them a lot.

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Post #: 3919
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 2:51:10 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakanel

Congratulations! That went well. With Naha in your hands, things improve for the other bases you have to conquer as well. Once you repair Naha, that is



What in the world do you mean?

It was a very bloody fight, with lots of lcu VP awarded to Japan (will you surpass 2-1 in VP?). Now, however, we will have to see what the Allies can do with the base in their hands.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 3/17/2016 3:03:51 PM >

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Post #: 3920
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 3:14:21 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakanel

Congratulations! That went well. With Naha in your hands, things improve for the other bases you have to conquer as well. Once you repair Naha, that is



What in the world do you mean?

It was a very bloody fight, with lots of lcu VP awarded to Japan (will you surpass 2-1 in VP?). Now, however, we will have to see what the Allies can do with the base in their hands.

Little electron band-aids only...

I can't/didn't track it exactly but after eliminating the remaining >50,000 Imperial troops there I am sure the VP ratio will be well over 2 to 1.

Naha will be the only base in the Okinawa campaign that can handle a fully loaded B-29. It will be a busy place. There are two islands to the west, Ishigaki and the one just east of it, that can build to size 7 and also handle fully loaded B-29 that are the next closest. All bases in the Okinawa campaign can handle fully loaded B-24 types and less.

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Post #: 3921
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 3:15:44 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The BB fires started in the morning strike were all out in the afternoon strike. I estimate system damage in the 35-45 range, some minor float and engineering damage. The major port helped them a lot.

Yeah, that stood out to me too. Tough old birds! I figure (hope) that so many 500 pounders must have done enough system damage to make them smoking messes.

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Post #: 3922
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 3:24:08 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakanel

Congratulations! That went well. With Naha in your hands, things improve for the other bases you have to conquer as well. Once you repair Naha, that is

Those troops could be all dead before reaching Nago actually, if you factor in other land assaults, bombardments and such... Nago will take some time though. I think you said before that you'll not march the troops from Naha to Nago, right?

Good progress in China also, and the port strikes went very well. Still, all those bombs on the two battleships are 500 lbs ones. Most likely they all bounced off and just started fires / did system damage. I wonder how really damaged they are... And what can they still do. Are they even capable of attempting to flee?

Already have 4x fighter squadrons at Tokunoshima. Once Naha is repaired the fighters assigned there plus at Daito Shoto will make a pretty nice umbrella over the area.

I'm surprised that so many ships at Singapore are sitting still. The times the IJN tested the blockade showed how solid it is, even just the aerial component, so maybe that's why? Or just that all the ships there are badly damaged?

China is going very well. River-crossing shock attack into Liuchow next turn, but we won't see that until at least Monday. Liuchow will make it easier to supply the army that invests Canton, especially after the road east of Liuchow is cleared. Canton will be toughest nut so far, with Urban-Heavy terrain. Pakhoi airfield is almost size 9, so we will be able to use the 2EB on Canton once the attacks begin. They are presently getting mauled over Liuchow, though.

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Post #: 3923
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/17/2016 10:59:36 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakanel

Congratulations! That went well. With Naha in your hands, things improve for the other bases you have to conquer as well. Once you repair Naha, that is



What in the world do you mean?

It was a very bloody fight, with lots of lcu VP awarded to Japan (will you surpass 2-1 in VP?). Now, however, we will have to see what the Allies can do with the base in their hands.

Little electron band-aids only...

I can't/didn't track it exactly but after eliminating the remaining >50,000 Imperial troops there I am sure the VP ratio will be well over 2 to 1.

Naha will be the only base in the Okinawa campaign that can handle a fully loaded B-29. It will be a busy place. There are two islands to the west, Ishigaki and the one just east of it, that can build to size 7 and also handle fully loaded B-29 that are the next closest. All bases in the Okinawa campaign can handle fully loaded B-24 types and less.

OK, this is partial because it does not include:
- ground losses to aerial bombardments
- air losses in aerial bombardments
- ground losses due to naval bombardments
- ground losses during landings
- ship losses

What does it include? Ground losses during ground battles (bombardments and assaults). The Allied ground losses during the two Imperial aerial assault periods were substantial, but nowhere near as great as during ground battles. The Imperial ground losses during Allied naval bombardments were were very substantial and might rival or exceed Imperial losses during ground combat.

quote:


Battle Number: 051267 Date: 1944-10-16
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 29891 troops, 255 guns, 35 vehicles, Assault Value = 1008

Defending force 85416 troops, 1255 guns, 1891 vehicles, Assault Value = 2762

Japanese ground losses:
78 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
69 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 6 (5 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 5 (4 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
35th Division
2nd Tank Regiment
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
75th Infantry Brigade
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
31st JAAF AF Bn
80th Field AA Battalion
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
32nd Army
79th Field AA Battalion
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
Okinawa Naval Base Force
81st Field AA Battalion
244th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
766th Tank Battalion
XIV Corps Engr Grp
2nd Marine Division
41st Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Division
710th Tank Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
194th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
6th Infantry Division
767th Tank Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
XIV US Corps
Sixth US Army
1st USMC AA Battalion



Battle Number: 051358 Date: 1944-10-17
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 17728 troops, 158 guns, 31 vehicles, Assault Value = 1000

Defending force 86876 troops, 1256 guns, 2125 vehicles, Assault Value = 2899

Japanese ground losses:
121 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (6 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Assaulting units:
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
75th Infantry Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
35th Division
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
32nd Army
31st JAAF AF Bn
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
80th Field AA Battalion
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
Okinawa Naval Base Force
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
81st Field AA Battalion
79th Field AA Battalion
244th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
710th Tank Battalion
41st Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
194th Tank Battalion
6th Infantry Division
766th Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
1st USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
767th Tank Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
Sixth US Army
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
XIV US Corps
1st USMC AA Battalion



Battle Number: 051395 Date: 1944-10-18
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 17708 troops, 158 guns, 31 vehicles, Assault Value = 1008

Defending force 87061 troops, 1255 guns, 2122 vehicles, Assault Value = 2900

Japanese ground losses:
59 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
97 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 7 (3 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Assaulting units:
35th Division
75th Infantry Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
79th Field AA Battalion
81st Field AA Battalion
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
80th Field AA Battalion
Okinawa Naval Base Force
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
32nd Army
31st JAAF AF Bn
244th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
6th Infantry Division
193rd Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
25th Infantry Division
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
710th Tank Battalion
2nd Marine Division
41st Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
1st USMC Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
766th Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
767th Tank Battalion
Sixth US Army
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
XIV US Corps
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
1st USMC AA Battalion



Battle Number: 051464 Date: 1944-10-19
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 17753 troops, 158 guns, 31 vehicles, Assault Value = 1016

Defending force 87064 troops, 1253 guns, 2121 vehicles, Assault Value = 2888

Japanese ground losses:
157 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
146 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
35th Division
75th Infantry Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
31st JAAF AF Bn
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
Okinawa Naval Base Force
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
79th Field AA Battalion
81st Field AA Battalion
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
80th Field AA Battalion
32nd Army
244th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
6th Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
766th Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
41st Infantry Division
25th Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
710th Tank Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
1st USMC Tank Battalion
716th Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
767th Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
XIV US Corps
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
Sixth US Army
1st USMC AA Battalion



Battle Number: 051526 Date: 1944-10-20
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 17677 troops, 158 guns, 31 vehicles, Assault Value = 1014

Defending force 86749 troops, 1246 guns, 2116 vehicles, Assault Value = 2863

Japanese ground losses:
237 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 18 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 8 (4 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Assaulting units:
35th Division
75th Infantry Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
2nd Tank Regiment
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
80th Field AA Battalion
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
81st Field AA Battalion
79th Field AA Battalion
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
32nd Army
31st JAAF AF Bn
Okinawa Naval Base Force
244th JAAF AF Bn

Defending units:
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
41st Infantry Division
6th Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
766th Tank Battalion
710th Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
40th Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
1st USMC Tank Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
193rd Tank Battalion
767th Tank Battalion
Sixth US Army
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
XIV US Corps
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
1st USMC AA Battalion



Battle Number: 052748 Date: 1944-11-07
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 78156 troops, 1248 guns, 1855 vehicles, Assault Value = 2772

Defending force 42581 troops, 499 guns, 174 vehicles, Assault Value = 1012

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 5

Allied adjusted assault: 3203

Japanese adjusted defense: 4963

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker: HQ(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1202 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 69 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 33 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 53 (3 destroyed, 50 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
7739 casualties reported
Squads: 322 destroyed, 420 disabled
Non Combat: 65 destroyed, 87 disabled
Engineers: 37 destroyed, 25 disabled
Guns lost 162 (74 destroyed, 88 disabled)
Vehicles lost 209 (110 destroyed, 99 disabled)

Assaulting units:
43rd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
40th Infantry Division
710th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
41st Infantry Division
766th Tank Battalion
1st USMC Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
6th Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
767th Tank Battalion
Sixth US Army
XIV US Corps
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
35th Division
75th Infantry Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
31st JAAF AF Bn
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
80th Field AA Battalion
Okinawa Naval Base Force
79th Field AA Battalion
32nd Army
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
81st Field AA Battalion
244th JAAF AF Bn



Battle Number: 053136 Date: 1944-11-12
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 73115 troops, 1201 guns, 1816 vehicles, Assault Value = 2289

Defending force 38832 troops, 467 guns, 171 vehicles, Assault Value = 840

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 4

Allied adjusted assault: 3448

Japanese adjusted defense: 2065

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 4

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2287 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 246 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 35 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 22 disabled
Guns lost 58 (16 destroyed, 42 disabled)
Vehicles lost 43 (22 destroyed, 21 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
4524 casualties reported
Squads: 158 destroyed, 219 disabled
Non Combat: 42 destroyed, 52 disabled
Engineers: 22 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 65 (14 destroyed, 51 disabled)
Vehicles lost 140 (73 destroyed, 67 disabled)

Assaulting units:
6th Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
41st Infantry Division
1st USMC Tank Battalion
766th Tank Battalion
710th Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
25th Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
40th Infantry Division
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
716th Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
767th Tank Battalion
Sixth US Army
XIV US Corps
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
75th Infantry Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
35th Division
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
31st JAAF AF Bn
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
Okinawa Naval Base Force
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
79th Field AA Battalion
80th Field AA Battalion
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
32nd Army
81st Field AA Battalion
244th JAAF AF Bn



Battle Number: 053556 Date: 1944-11-18
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 51366 troops, 881 guns, 1587 vehicles, Assault Value = 2118

Defending force 36746 troops, 438 guns, 153 vehicles, Assault Value = 695

Allied adjusted assault: 2181

Japanese adjusted defense: 2671

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1742 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 168 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 46 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 20 disabled
Guns lost 46 (15 destroyed, 31 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (2 destroyed, 15 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
2409 casualties reported
Squads: 74 destroyed, 126 disabled
Non Combat: 34 destroyed, 28 disabled
Engineers: 12 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 45 (14 destroyed, 31 disabled)
Vehicles lost 88 (41 destroyed, 47 disabled)

Assaulting units:
41st Infantry Division
766th Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
716th Tank Battalion
1st USMC Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
194th Tank Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
6th Infantry Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
710th Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
40th Infantry Division
767th Tank Battalion
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
Sixth US Army
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
XIV US Corps
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
35th Division
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
2nd Tank Regiment
75th Infantry Brigade
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
79th Field AA Battalion
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
81st Field AA Battalion
31st JAAF AF Bn
32nd Army
Okinawa Naval Base Force
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
244th JAAF AF Bn



Battle Number: 053835 Date: 1944-11-22
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 70581 troops, 1194 guns, 1793 vehicles, Assault Value = 2023

Defending force 33569 troops, 413 guns, 146 vehicles, Assault Value = 524

Allied adjusted assault: 3130

Japanese adjusted defense: 881

Allied assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 3

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-)
Attacker: HQ(+)

Japanese ground losses:
2179 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 87 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 26 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 53 (16 destroyed, 37 disabled)
Vehicles lost 27 (2 destroyed, 25 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
1891 casualties reported
Squads: 54 destroyed, 96 disabled
Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 27 disabled
Engineers: 18 destroyed, 37 disabled
Guns lost 29 (16 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 58 (38 destroyed, 20 disabled)

Assaulting units:
XIV Corps Engr Grp
25th Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Division
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
710th Tank Battalion
6th Infantry Division
766th Tank Battalion
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
716th Tank Battalion
1st USMC Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
194th Tank Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
41st Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division
767th Tank Battalion
XIV US Corps
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
Sixth US Army
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
35th Division
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
75th Infantry Brigade
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
2nd Tank Regiment
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
79th Field AA Battalion
81st Field AA Battalion
39th Field AA Machinecannon Company
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
32nd Army
Okinawa Naval Base Force
31st JAAF AF Bn
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
244th JAAF AF Bn



Battle Number: 054057 Date: 1944-11-25
Ground combat at Naha (95,66)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 69901 troops, 1184 guns, 1784 vehicles, Assault Value = 1939

Defending force 29413 troops, 381 guns, 130 vehicles, Assault Value = 334

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 3375

Japanese adjusted defense: 471

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Naha !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2121 casualties reported
Squads: 108 destroyed, 78 disabled
Non Combat: 78 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 61 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 98 (80 destroyed, 18 disabled)
Vehicles lost 84 (84 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
1106 casualties reported
Squads: 23 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 15 disabled
Guns lost 9 (3 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Vehicles lost 92 (36 destroyed, 56 disabled)

Assaulting units:
1st USMC Tank Battalion
3rd Arm Amphib Battalion
43rd Infantry Division
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
6th Infantry Division
716th Tank Battalion
710th Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
766th Tank Battalion
2nd Marine Division
XIV Corps Engr Grp
41st Infantry Division
193rd Tank Battalion
40th Infantry Division
767th Tank Battalion
XIV US Corps
Sixth US Army
1st USMC Field Artillery Battalion
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd AmphTrac Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
15th Ind.Mixed Regiment
34th Ind.Mixed Brigade
2nd Tank Regiment
35th Division
75th Infantry Brigade
Det. 3rd Special Base Force
Okinawa Naval Base Force
31st JAAF AF Bn
3rd Medium Mortar Battalion
100th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
32nd Army
Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force
244th JAAF AF Bn









Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3924
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/18/2016 10:02:54 AM   
Rafid

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/24/2015
Status: offline 		That it is about 450 LCU Points for the Japanese against less than 100 for the Allies. On the other hand side the base itself is worth 990 in the current state and another 990 when fully build. Even without destroying the rest of the troops the ratio is hence about 4:1. Probably more important is the value of the base for the coming strategic bombing campaign (and Lowpe can testify to how many points that can yield).

But maybe that is the wrong discussion to have: In late 44 the Allies have all the tools to fight battles to good VP ratios, but given their limited resources and time they can only fight so many of them. So from an economics point of view oportunity cost might be the measure to look at. Would a different campaign (using the same ressources) have given a better VP ratio (short/middle/long term)???

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Now, however, we will have to see what the Allies can do with the base in their hands.


Exactly. For the time beeing witpqs has secured an important stepping stone in the overall strategic approach he commited himself to. Congratulations for that.

< Message edited by Rafid -- 3/18/2016 10:03:59 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3925
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/18/2016 2:52:07 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		I think your math is off on the lcu vp calculation (unless I am reading the chart wrong):

Ground Units Destroyed:
»» Allied ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or guns):
»» Philippine and Chinese: 1 VP for every 12 items destroyed
»» Soviet: 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed
»» All Other Allied: 1 VP for every 3 items destroyed
»» Japanese ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or
guns): 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed

(in reply to Rafid)
Post #: 3926
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/18/2016 4:08:56 PM   
Rafid

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/24/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I think your math is off on the lcu vp calculation (unless I am reading the chart wrong):

Ground Units Destroyed:
»» Allied ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or guns):
»» Philippine and Chinese: 1 VP for every 12 items destroyed
»» Soviet: 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed
»» All Other Allied: 1 VP for every 3 items destroyed
»» Japanese ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or
guns): 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed



I used those numbers from the manual so I think you are reading the chart wrong. You must be careful, because only destroyed devices count which are in the second column for squads (including non combat and engineers) and in the third column for guns and vehicles. So you need to shift a column half way down when adding the destroyed devices.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3927
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/18/2016 4:37:07 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I think your math is off on the lcu vp calculation (unless I am reading the chart wrong):

Ground Units Destroyed:
»» Allied ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or guns):
»» Philippine and Chinese: 1 VP for every 12 items destroyed
»» Soviet: 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed
»» All Other Allied: 1 VP for every 3 items destroyed
»» Japanese ground unit items (squads, vehicles, or
guns): 1 VP for every 6 items destroyed


That's a better ratio than I thought (I was channeling Mandrake and didn't look it up). I thought the ratio of Other Allied to Japanese was 4 to 1, but it's only 2 to 1 (6 points to 3 points).

Also - do disabled devices count for any VP at all? If not, that's better for me, as all the IJ devices will be destroyed but many fewer of mine remaining will be destroyed. Which BTW is another important reason to keep them from getting to the x3 terrain at Nago.

The above tallies, for destroyed devices only, yield 133 VP against the Japanese, 618 VP against the Allies. But only about 1/11 (going by starting and current troop tallies) of the Japanese contingent has yet been destroyed. Possibly 133 x 11 = 1,463 against the Japanese eventually.

The more I can keep away from Nago, the less costly it will be to land that fish. I still don't have tallies for landings, aerial, and naval bombardments, but looking at the Okinawa operation as a whole is even better. Aside from having the objectives for use, Daito Shoto was better for us than Naha, and Tokunoshima the same.

Here is Daito Shoto. Major problem: the numbers from the final destruction of units are not available ("Wiped out", "surrounded", etc.).




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 3928
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/18/2016 4:51:38 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Here is the tally for Tokunoshima. The same limitations apply: no air or naval bombardment data, and no unit final destrutction tallies.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by witpqs -- 3/18/2016 4:52:48 PM >

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3929
RE: 1944 November 25 - 3/18/2016 7:44:30 PM   
Rafid

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/24/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Also - do disabled devices count for any VP at all? No

Here is Daito Shoto. Major problem: the numbers from the final destruction of units are not available ("Wiped out", "surrounded", etc.).

Depending on the game Version you are using that part might be buggy and those VPs are (partially) not counted. See here for details: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3740018. It has been fixed in the beta since 26/09/2015



(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3930
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