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Suggestion for NEW Game! - 1/14/2002 7:07:00 PM   
vils

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		The Europes most successful Generals during 1600-1700 was no doubt the Swedish monarks of GUSTAV II ADOLF (battle of lutzen1640th 30yr war) and CARL X GUSTAV (Conquered Poland and Denmark 1658) and the ultimate CARL XII GUSTAV, who Conquered Baltic states, parts of Poland. Why dont make a campaign game of this ERA? Most countries were involved in this conflicts, so there are huge potential for a game, just read the history! And there is no game that has been made from this era either. Personally i love the campaign of ordering armies over vast territories, but mostly the micromanagement of the individual soldiers as for example SidMeyers Gettysburg! Thats the way of doing close-combat with nice graphics! Any comments for this? A second thought would be a campaign game for Napoleones attack on Russia. The whole campaign with all the history throwned in it.

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Post #: 1
- 1/15/2002 11:30:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I am likely opening the door to a lot of nasty rebutal, but while I enjoy "reading" about pre WW1 era warfare, I would likely have to say that any sort of wargame software based on anything pre WW1 would be immensely dull. WW2 and onward is primarily interesting due to the scope, the sheer magnitude of terrain involved. The machinery of war is a great deal more complex (not to mention its more than just a bunch of guys lined up shooting at each other after long walks). The advent of Modern era instant news through the media has made warfare more about the one individual that was killed in a helicopter incident or whatever admittedly. Battles like Tarawa would have the public truely horrified. Today, we are unlikely to see much of an involved WW2 like battle. I cant for instance see any interest whatsoever gaming out the fight in Afganistan. Of course I could be wrong. But I wouldnt myself personally, play any pre WW1 era game under any circumstances (regardless of how oooh wow the game looked).

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Post #: 2
- 1/16/2002 3:57:00 PM   
vils

 

Posts: 251
Joined: 1/11/2002
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
I am likely opening the door to a lot of nasty rebutal, but while I enjoy "reading" about pre WW1 era warfare, I would likely have to say that any sort of wargame software based on anything pre WW1 would be immensely dull. WW2 and onward is primarily interesting due to the scope, the sheer magnitude of terrain involved. The machinery of war is a great deal more complex (not to mention its more than just a bunch of guys lined up shooting at each other after long walks). The advent of Modern era instant news through the media has made warfare more about the one individual that was killed in a helicopter incident or whatever admittedly. Battles like Tarawa would have the public truely horrified. Today, we are unlikely to see much of an involved WW2 like battle. I cant for instance see any interest whatsoever gaming out the fight in Afganistan. Of course I could be wrong. But I wouldnt myself personally, play any pre WW1 era game under any circumstances (regardless of how oooh wow the game looked).
Ahumm. Well, i thouht the same some years ago before o started to read about older history.
But the more i read, the more i realised that the tactics were far more greater then in 'modern' war. Ops boss around, gotta end abruptly

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Post #: 3
- 1/16/2002 11:08:00 PM   
jerrysindle

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/17/2001
From: Virginia Beach, VA
Status: offline 		Actually Sarge, I think the fight in Afghanistan will lend itself very well to the SP2 game system, the SPMBT game system, and the Combat Leader game system. The heroic efforts of a special forces team to prevent the Taliban taking a village from them and a company of skitterish Afghans. One side gets a battalion of infantry in Toyota pickups, the other side gets one 12 man US special forces squad, one skitterish Afghan company of light Pushtan infantry. Additionally, the US gets 1 B1 bomber with 24 JDAMS, and 2 F/A-18s with 2 2000 pound bombs each. The JDAMS will have the typical delay of artillary, but will not scatter. They will hit the hex they are called upon to hit. The difficulty with the JDAMS is they are fired at a hex not a target, so you have to guess where the pickups will be when they land. Lots of good scenarios to make in Afghanistan. V/R Jerry

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Post #: 4
- 1/16/2002 11:25:00 PM   
scimitar

 

Posts: 301
Joined: 8/22/2001
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		Personnally, I would like to see a tactical game of WWI air war; a Flight Commander- or Over the Reich/Achtung Spitfire-like...

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Post #: 5
- 1/19/2002 11:24:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I guess with me it is possibly interest value a bit too. I wouldnt play that Afganistan setting even if it was possible to represent it. It lacks an interest level (I am not saying there is no fighting there, just none I care to wargame out). To much of WW2 is open to examples of battles that actually occurred (and the "what if you were there in command potential"). Its a target rich environment. Not to mention the research is a bit less politically motivated these days. Its why I have no real interest in using Coalition firepower to slag Republican Guard armour in Irag. Way to much "speculation" of what each weapons sytem "supposedly" can do, and the reality (we all know that smart weapons seem ironically similar to anything produced in the US educational system, sorry for the slag yanks, but reality bites). I can point out several spots in WW2 I wouldnt want to fight out as well though. A good wargame needs a good situation to model. I can still remember watching the fall of the Berlin Wall and the trashing of Russian Communism. Not to mention the speed I ditched all my WWW3 wargames while they were still worth anything to a store at all. Maybe I just have a bias against post Korean warfare settings.

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Post #: 6
- 1/20/2002 1:53:00 AM   
Khan7

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 7/27/2001
From: StL
Status: offline 		The thing that people consistently will fail to realize about old warfare and new warfare is that it really is all the same thing anyway. I suppose if you enjoy the act of memorizing a large and diverse weapons encyclopedia, WW2 and on would be for you. But this is the only real advantage that WW2 has over any other era. Different types and uses of forces, strategic and tactical options-- WW2 is definitely not unique in this sense. Personally I find all eras about equally interesting. WW2 is of course always going to be a favorite of true military students, and I like a good weapons encyclopedia as well as the next wargamer, but, styling myself as a military student, I cannot and do not wish to limit myself in this fashion. So it's WW2 one day and the Iliad the next for me, I'm happy to play well-made wargames from any era. Matt

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Khan7

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Post #: 7
- 1/20/2002 10:19:00 AM   
Capt. Chris

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/19/2001
Status: offline 		Before you go criticize anything, you should at least try it out. I started my wargaming hobby with armys of Romans, Greeks, Turks, Templars, Scotts, etc. The basic tactics and strategy remain the same throughout the ages. It wasn't for quite some that my group actually picked up WWII microarmor. I love the WWII era and it is my favorite mainly because I can relate a little better to it. I am a technology geek. I am still searching for a PC based wargame that can give me the thrills of tabletop gaming. Steel Panthers is a fantastic game, but nothing beats a Saturday night gathering of friends to duke it out on a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

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Chris

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Post #: 8
- 1/20/2002 3:16:00 PM   
Randy

 

Posts: 1172
Joined: 8/22/2000
From: Torrance, Calif. USA
Status: offline 		Jerry, I think that SPII, SPIII (you would have to edit your units to squad size, instead of plts), and CL all lend themselves to model the Afghan war. They all lend themselves to the use of special ops and the use of choppers for mobility.

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Post #: 9
- 1/20/2002 9:52:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Table top miniatures does in fact look like fun. Its the reason my dining room table is based off of a 4x8 sheet of plywood actually. Made the table originally out of a conventional sheet of plywood specifically for miniatures games, added legs to it and poof game table. Played three games battling it out with the hordes of lead miniatures me and my buddies had from our roleplaying stashes. And that was it. The interest vanished. Oh well. Tried to get into the hobby right up until I discovered that Citadel,the primary maker of fantasy miniatures (and fantasy is the most common entry genre), not only charged ya an arm and a leg for dang near nothing, but their product was offensively crummy in quality to boot.
And being a modeller of some capability, I sure aint spending a fortune to play with miniatures of lousy quality, that dont come painted or assembled. At least my wargames require nothing more than removing counters from counter sheets. This is perhaps the biggest problem with miniatures gaming. The entry difficulty level. It is comparable to being unable to play Steel Panthers unless you invest in a computer first I guess. Or being required to purchase all of ASL before being able to play it. Its a sizable hurdle to overcome. End result. I rebuilt the table after much sanding and making a proper trestle table base and now I have a great looking 4x8 dining table. But miniatures gaming in spite of its appeal, wont be much to me. I must say though. I cant see an attraction to pre WW2 gaming on the computer. But I would never pass up a chance to push miniatures around on a table top gaming area. I think that time period is best served on the table top (just my opinion).

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post #: 10
- 1/21/2002 1:17:00 AM   
Del

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 4/22/2001
From: Central USA
Status: offline 		No scope in pre WWI warfare? Modern combined arms warfare is built upon pre WWI warfare. The real first world war didn't start in 1914. It was long before that. The French and English fought more than one war that spanned the globe before 1800. Napy fought a war that reached as far as the Western Hemisphere. Sorry Les but I would have to disagree with you. Of course it's a matter of preference. My two favorites are the Napoleon era and the Crimean War. When they get the bugs worked out of the Le Grande Armee system give it a try you might be surprised. Looks like a good series.

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Post #: 11
- 2/11/2002 1:54:00 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		I would like to see a game that concentrates on the naval race between England and Germany prior to WWI. One which allows both strategic and tactical level play, limited warship design, historical revisionism and an accurate historical mode for those who just want to blow up HMS Invincible over and over again. Was there not an attempt at this a few years back which failed due to poor design and poorer financing?

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Post #: 12
- 2/11/2002 3:22:00 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		Whoever thinks pre-20th century warfare is dull hasn't tried it. Colonial warfare is not just slotting Fuzzy-Wuzzies. It requires care for your flanks, your supply lines, proper use of terrain, intelligent force selection, the willingness to take risks, and the ability to make plans quickly and change plans quickly. You are usually heavily outnumbered, out of the reach of headquarters, alone. Everything relies on YOU. You can't blame running out of petrol, the technical superiority of enemy weapons, the weather keeping your air force on the ground. You have to perform. troopie [ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: troopie ]



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Post #: 13
- 2/11/2002 5:06:00 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by scimitar:
Personnally, I would like to see a tactical game of WWI air war; a Flight Commander- or Over the Reich/Achtung Spitfire-like...
Ah yes, and do you remember the old Avalon Hill's board game called Luftwaffe ? More strategic than tactical, but a hell of a lot of fun!

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Post #: 14
- 2/12/2002 2:29:00 AM   
Hetz(er)

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		I have no idea at all of how much of a bugger it would be to program but as far as WWI dogfighting goes does anyone remember F.I.T.S.(fight in the skies)? A great great game that actually wasn't that complex for what it allowed you to simulate.
As far as napoleonics goes SSI had a decent computer game out in like 89 or 90 called "the battles of napoleon" that considered things like line and square and skirmish and allowed you to "buy" different armies from that time period.

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Post #: 15
- 2/14/2002 1:59:00 PM   
New York Jets


Posts: 2087
Joined: 6/25/2001
From: St. Louis, MO but stuck in Bremerton,WA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
I am likely opening the door to a lot of nasty rebutal, but while I enjoy "reading" about pre WW1 era warfare, I would likely have to say that any sort of wargame software based on anything pre WW1 would be immensely dull. WW2 and onward is primarily interesting due to the scope, the sheer magnitude of terrain involved. The machinery of war is a great deal more complex (not to mention its more than just a bunch of guys lined up shooting at each other after long walks).
Les, are you meaning an operational, tactical or strategic game prior to WWI? From a strategic, and even tactical, standpoint the American Civil War is very engaging.

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Post #: 16
- 2/15/2002 4:20:00 PM   
Muzrub


Posts: 1780
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
Status: offline 		How about teh preiod of about 300AD to the about 1300AD End of the empire- rise of middle europe- the last true medievil battles in the middle east!

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Post #: 17
- 2/15/2002 7:32:00 PM   
heiks

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Athens of Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by vils:

Personally i love the campaign of ordering armies over vast territories, but mostly the micromanagement of the individual soldiers as for example SidMeyers Gettysburg! Thats the way of doing close-combat with nice graphics! Any comments for this?
I also wouldn't mind seeing a game about the 30 year war. It would have to be either operational or strategic level game though, since in the tactical level the battles of the era were simply unmanageable because of the size of army and the lack of communication and proper telescopes. A mixed operational & strategic 30 year war game might be the most interesting one, since there were quite a few participants in the war and the strategic situation also changed quite often. So possibly some sort of a mixture between detailed army command and a relatively detailed diplomacy control might produce quite an interesting combination.

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Post #: 18
- 2/15/2002 7:48:00 PM   
heiks

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Athens of Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by vils:
The Europes most successful Generals during 1600-1700 was no doubt the Swedish monarks of GUSTAV II ADOLF (battle of lutzen1640th 30yr war) and CARL X GUSTAV (Conquered Poland and Denmark 1658) and the ultimate CARL XII GUSTAV, who Conquered Baltic states, parts of Poland.
Instead of Lützen I'd rather mention Breitenfeld a year or two before as the greatest moment for Gustaf II Adolf. This was the battle which showed the tactical superiority of his army against the best of the spanish tactical ability. This was also the battle which the catholic generals studied closely and used to learn the tactics used.
Lützen was IMHO the fight that should not have been fought, and a culmination of a year of operational failures, in which Wallenstein outmaneuvred the Swedish army over and over again, which IMO was caused by Gustafs lack of a clear strategy to end the war quickly. His path was open into the heartlands of the Habsburg empire and possibly even to Vienna. But instead of going straight for the victory he decided to eliminate the threat caused by Wallenstein who had appeared to his rear area. My personal belief is that this choice was a failure, since if Gustaf had decided to attack Vienna, Wallenstein would have had to follow him, because the armies already lived off the land, so supply routes were not an immediate problem. This would have kept the initiative in the Swedish king's hands. However what the king lacked in strategic vision, the men who took command after his death more than made up for it, both Baner and Oxenstierna (and I guess there were some other soo, but I can't remember names) fought hard and long to keep what had been gained in the first year of the war, and eventually got a favorable result even against highly usperior force, who by then had caught up in tactics.

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Post #: 19
- 2/22/2002 11:27:00 PM   
perrascout

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		This sounds as a good idea. Once i tryed to recreate the battle of Poltava with SP3... but he weapons didn't work the way I wanted it to... //Perra
quote:

Originally posted by vils:
The Europes most successful Generals during 1600-1700 was no doubt the Swedish monarks of GUSTAV II ADOLF (battle of lutzen1640th 30yr war) and CARL X GUSTAV (Conquered Poland and Denmark 1658) and the ultimate CARL XII GUSTAV, who Conquered Baltic states, parts of Poland. Why dont make a campaign game of this ERA? Most countries were involved in this conflicts, so there are huge potential for a game, just read the history! And there is no game that has been made from this era either. Personally i love the campaign of ordering armies over vast territories, but mostly the micromanagement of the individual soldiers as for example SidMeyers Gettysburg! Thats the way of doing close-combat with nice graphics! Any comments for this? A second thought would be a campaign game for Napoleones attack on Russia. The whole campaign with all the history throwned in it.


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//Perra

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Post #: 20
- 2/25/2002 12:20:00 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline 		While I don't think a reply to Les the Sarge 9-1 need be "nasty" I must say that his remarks seem a bit odd. I can understand that everyone has their likes and dislikes and personal preferences, but to find any computer game based on anything pre WWI to be "boring" is a little bit too much to comprehend. The only paper board game I play anymore is Advanced Squad Leader and to surmise from Les's screen name "Les the Sarge 9-1", I guess he plays Advanced Squad Leader too. But unlike him I enjoy all eras of gameing, computer or paper. It's not the era of the game but the design of the game that makes it fun or boring and that's especially true with computer games. As a matter of fact, I find most WWI games to be "boring" although there are some that are fun to play (i.e., SPI's WWI and AH's Guns of August). I have yet to see any computer WWI game that was interesting to me. And I think the lack of WWI computer games goes to show how difficult it is to design an interesting game on that subject. Like I said, the era is not the key to a good and interesting game, it's how well the game plays that is important. My favorite era is the American Civil War and there are many computer games on that subject that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole because they are such bad designs. But I won't totally neglect era either. Taking an objective or winning a battle with cannon, unreliable muskets and charging cavalry is much more challenging to me than blasting an objective with aircraft and modern precision weaponry although I still enjoy playing those types of games too. Les the Sarge 9-1 is well within his rights to find anything pre WWI to be boring, we all have our personal preferences, but my suggestion to him as a fellow ASL player is to expand his horizons and come out of the closet. He might just greatly increase his gaming experience and have a lot of fun too. I didn't write this to criticize Les, just the opposite. I don't think he realizes what he is missing. I believe the vast majority of gamers find diversity to be golden.

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Post #: 21
- 2/25/2002 2:06:00 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		*Ahem* *nervously clearing my throat* I’m new to this genre of gaming so if I step on my …ah ……tie, forgive me. I know this is cross posting and probably bad form but I read that Matrix is picking up Simulations Canada’s (now defunct) catalog. They had some interesting games. Schnellboote – Tactical "PT" boat action 1939-1945 Peloponnesian War Scourge of God- Attila the Hun I Will Fight No More Forever – the campaign against the Nez Perce Some of their games might make interesting pc games. Has anybody done a good game of “wooden ships and iron men” era naval combat? I played a board game based on this years ago and really enjoyed it. Can’t remember the name of it though.

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Post #: 22
- 2/25/2002 2:43:00 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline 		Mojo writes:
"Has anybody done a good game of “wooden ships and iron men” era naval combat? I played a board game based on this years ago and really enjoyed it. Can’t remember the name of it though." Actually, the game you are probably talking about is, appropriately enough, called "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" and it was published by the late Avalon Hill Co. now owned by Hasbro. It was converted to a computer game and is probably still available somewhere. Talonsoft also published a computer age of sail game called "Age Of Sail" and followed that up with an updated version called "Age Of Sail II". All of these games have their pros and cons but should be of interest to anyone interested in that type of game. Which is better? Well, I've heard equal arguments from all sides for each game so I guess it's just up to the player's personal taste. I have Age of Sail and it is fun and nice to look at but I've only played it solitare and sometimes it gets a bit tedious. But, hey, that's just my opinion. Others find it to be a great game.

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Post #: 23
- 2/25/2002 2:32:00 PM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info Dave. Must have been why "wooden ships etc" stuck in my head. I know what you mean by the tedious factor. Lots of tacking back and forth trying to gain position but I find it fascinating in a weird kind of way. That and it's easier for me to remember what type of guns a frigate is carrying than to remember what a Stumpfschutzenpazerjaegergefiltafishen B1z was packing in late April of '43. (But I'm learning!) As far as Talonsoft goes well......I have one of their games (Divided Ground) and they won't let me register to post on their forum. They ban certain email poviders in an effort to maintain civility.

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Post #: 24
- 2/25/2002 11:55:00 PM   
ratster

 

Posts: 166
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: PA
Status: offline
quote:

Matrix is picking up Simulations Canada’s (now defunct) catalog.
I've read this, or a similar, statement several times now on these boards. Where did this information come from, other than as *rumor* on this board?

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Post #: 25
- 2/26/2002 8:34:00 AM   
Mojo

 

Posts: 915
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: Portland, Oregon USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by ratster:
I've read this, or a similar, statement several times now on these boards. Where did this information come from, other than as *rumor* on this board?
I guess I'm the guilty party. I got the information from an article in the holiday 2001 issue of PC Gamer magazine. Even had a good interview by some chap named David Heath. I see that Paul Vebber responded to my original post today. [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Mojo ]



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Post #: 26
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