RE: Will there be any change to production?

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/5/2012 10:51:12 AM

karonagames

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I speak as an ex-tester, and not as a representative of 2by3, Matrix etc.

The design philosophy behind the asymmetrical production systems was discussed, debated and explained well before the game was released. Subsequent to release, the strengths and weaknesses of the design decision have been exposed, discussed and debated to the point that 2by3 have been personally insulted in this thread and others.

If I was 2by3 I would be asking whether the weaknesses of the current production system are such that they are game-breakers or chrome that needs "polishing".

In testing I spotted an issue with PZIIIn which were classified as CS tanks, and as such were out of sync with the TOEs and so 300+ were sitting in the pool. It took several months but the TOEs were changed to make PZIIIn's more usable, and they no longer sit in the pool. Did my game experience change much between the games I played with 300 sitting in the pool compared to more recent games where the pools are empty? Can't say I really noticed.

I don't know how much coding would be needed to have the same replacement ability as aircraft, but if it is done, it will add another level of micro-management, but again you have to ask if the results will be real game changers - hence threads like this one

I can see the case for allowing more flexibility in using AFV pools, as the pools can only be formed if the Axis are doing better than historically and are not losing as many AFVs as they did historically, so having some form of flexibility to reflect this success seems reasonable. If I was a tester I think lobbying for the axis to form JPZ, StG and possiblly PZ SU's based on the size of available pools would be reasonable, but would I put it ahead of fixing the Air Model and re-appraising the Victory Conditions? Probably not.

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Post #: 91

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/5/2012 12:21:02 PM

Wild

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Thanks for the response.

This will be my last post on the matter.

I would just say giving the Germans a little something else to tinker with helps keep fun and intrest in the game, more so for people who like micromanagement like me but i bet there is a lot out there.

It would give people less to complain about, be percieved as being more fair and help to create more interst in upcoming titles. but after all this i'm not sure if a really care enough to play the game anymore or not.

signing off.

(in reply to karonagames)

Post #: 92

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/5/2012 1:22:05 PM

invernomuto

Posts: 986
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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild

Thanks for the response.

This will be my last post on the matter.

I would just say giving the Germans a little something else to tinker with helps keep fun and intrest in the game, more so for people who like micromanagement like me but i bet there is a lot out there.

It would give people less to complain about, be percieved as being more fair and help to create more interst in upcoming titles. but after all this i'm not sure if a really care enough to play the game anymore or not.

signing off.

Wild, I find your post reasonable.
I think the game should give the possibility to Axis at least to create SU (maybe as an optional rule).
I have no idea if it is easy or not to code or if it change the game balance too much towards Axis side.
I'd still prefer fixed replacement for both sides (less exploit from the players) but the optional SU creation could be a nice toy for some Axis players, if they want more micromanagement.

PS
However it's typical of 2by3 games having a side that has more control over some aspect of the game (eg production) and the other that has fixed historical replacement.
Eg:
WITP (Japan has total control over production, Allies have fixed replacement)
GG:EDBTR (Germany can choose what aircraft to produce)

So nothing new with WITE...

Bye

< Message edited by invernomuto -- 1/5/2012 2:53:23 PM >

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Post #: 93

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/5/2012 2:49:20 PM

jzardos

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I think what players like Wild are asking for is very sensible and is in line with a historical representation of the war in the east. If I remember corrected that seems to be the baseline behind this game? Also, it's a 'game' and thus the 'fun' and playability factors must not be disregarding for any silly rigid systems that people want to put in place regrading production for the axis.

The ability for the axis (Germans) to create some support units(within reason) for AP expenditures to utilize surplus equipment in the pools. Adding this feature will boost historical realism, playability, and the fun factors (well for axis side for sure).

< Message edited by jzardos -- 1/5/2012 2:56:12 PM >

(in reply to invernomuto)

Post #: 94

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/5/2012 5:14:37 PM

Schmart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild
or the ability to change armor within specified types like we already can with aircraft, like i have said before. (Although i was ignored and will most likely be so again)

To me it doesn't really seem like such a Nazi loving, earth-shaking request but obviously i must be mad.

I've advocated for this since the day the game was released. It still doesn't make sense why the game allows manual aircraft changes, but not AFVs, and the developers have never explained this difference. It was in WIR 20 years ago, so it's not like it's difficult to program. A couple restrictions so that you can't fill a divisions with Tigers or JSIIIs and away we go. Your beef is with production pools filling up, my beef is with Panthers going to Motorized Divisions while some Panzer Divisions are still running around with Pz38s! Either way, an optional function to allow for manual AFV changes a would go a long way to adding to the replayability of the game.

However, a long time ago I was told that the developers were not planning on adding such a function, so we shouldn't hold our breath. And now that they've moved on to WitW, development of WitE has stopped. I really appreciate the time they've put into fixing most of the major bugs, it's just unfortunate that apparently no more effort is being made to fine tune the chrome and re-playability of the game. But that's just my opinion.

(in reply to Wild)

Post #: 95

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/5/2012 7:19:10 PM

randallw

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Was the current production model ( monthly output based on an average ) put in place just to simplify how production is handled?

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Post #: 96

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/6/2012 4:18:16 PM

Ron

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Wow what a lot of emotional diatribe, prejudice and just plain hyperbole to muddy the waters. No one is asking for an 'I win' button or is under any confusion as to who won the war lol. What people want is a more historical journey from Point A to Point B. The fact is for a game portraying itself as a historical simulation it is anything but. For all its quirks, the Russo_German War does a better job, it is just more work.

To pick one example in WitE(out of several noted here), I may not know how many aircraft the VVS had available at 8am May 3, 1942 - I do know they were not capable of decimating the Luftwaffe at that date nor would they have greater skilled/experienced squadrons than the Germans. So when players see the handicaps the Germans have to operate under yet the extreme flexibility or capability their Russian counterparts have, it's not a stretch to hear cries of foul. Granted some of this may be simply due to the limitations of the engine, I don't know. However, something is definitely rotten in Denmark.

(in reply to randallw)

Post #: 97

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 3:34:42 AM

Tentpeg

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Ron;

I thought Matrix was located in America.

I agree the number of handicaps placed on the German player are bothersome and frustrating. So answer me this, why haven't we gone over to the red side? Could it be the game is still fun?

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 98

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 4:23:13 AM

Gandalf

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From: Jefferson City, MO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tentpeg

Ron;

I thought Matrix was located in America.

Education time... see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/something+is+rotten+in+the+state+of+denmark

(in reply to Tentpeg)

Post #: 99

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 6:14:36 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

Wow what a lot of emotional diatribe, prejudice and just plain hyperbole to muddy the waters. No one is asking for an 'I win' button or is under any confusion as to who won the war lol. What people want is a more historical journey from Point A to Point B. The fact is for a game portraying itself as a historical simulation it is anything but. For all its quirks, the Russo_German War does a better job, it is just more work.

I disgagree on RGW.

But it is a constant refrain by a few disgruntled idgits that because they can't win the way they want, or the game doesn't act the way they want, (why then don't they either pool some money and pay someone to do a game the way they want.) the game is broken and favors one side because that's the way some Russian loving rednecks want it.

Now I can't speak for 2by3, the testers, or anyone else. But it would not surprise me if they just tuned them out. The constant anti 2by3 barrage serves no purpose other than to antagonize both them and other players. Even if they have valid points, it's drowned out by the nonsensical vitirol.

Really now. If one doesn't like the product, stop playing it. And if you don't like the company that makes it, don't buy from them.

(in reply to Ron)

Post #: 100

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 10:24:06 AM

delatbabel

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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

Production is not my biggest concern. The number one concern is moral. Moral increases or decreases should be dependent on lost or gained cities and not predetermined. This is clear bias. Not accusations no insults just a plain fact. That system is indefensible. How important is moral in this game?

No, your suggestion is indefensible. It would not make historical sense. It would make the game unplayable (if the Soviets were to take a massive morale hit due to losing cities such as Leningrad and Moscow in early 1942, and having played a few 1.05 games now I believe that neither city is defensible against even a moderately skilled axis player in 1942) then they could never get back into the game.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 1:16:23 PM

Mentor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

Production is not my biggest concern. The number one concern is moral. Moral increases or decreases should be dependent on lost or gained cities and not predetermined. This is clear bias. Not accusations no insults just a plain fact. That system is indefensible. How important is moral in this game?

No, your suggestion is indefensible. It would not make historical sense. It would make the game unplayable (if the Soviets were to take a massive morale hit due to losing cities such as Leningrad and Moscow in early 1942, and having played a few 1.05 games now I believe that neither city is defensible against even a moderately skilled axis player in 1942) then they could never get back into the game.

+1

Trying to balance a system where a side gets stronger NM as it does better will be very tricky, it is inherently unstable and will lead to many runaway games. I think this would reduce the playability of the game and increase the likelihood that games would be abandoned prior to completion even more than it is right now.

Once you really understand what National Morale is supposed to represent it becomes easy to see why the capture of so-and-so city should not have any impact on it.

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Post #: 102

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 3:13:38 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mentor

quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

Production is not my biggest concern. The number one concern is moral. Moral increases or decreases should be dependent on lost or gained cities and not predetermined. This is clear bias. Not accusations no insults just a plain fact. That system is indefensible. How important is moral in this game?

No, your suggestion is indefensible. It would not make historical sense. It would make the game unplayable (if the Soviets were to take a massive morale hit due to losing cities such as Leningrad and Moscow in early 1942, and having played a few 1.05 games now I believe that neither city is defensible against even a moderately skilled axis player in 1942) then they could never get back into the game.

+1

Trying to balance a system where a side gets stronger NM as it does better will be very tricky, it is inherently unstable and will lead to many runaway games. I think this would reduce the playability of the game and increase the likelihood that games would be abandoned prior to completion even more than it is right now.

Once you really understand what National Morale is supposed to represent it becomes easy to see why the capture of so-and-so city should not have any impact on it.

Well then what about some other dynamic factor, f.e. losses.

Fact is that the current system is very deterministic and serves no other purpose except to enforce the real life timeline on a game timeline which by definition will and should vary, often significantly so.

The tools already exist to give the Soviets their middle-late war NM boost, namely the Guards unit/Shock Army NM bonuses.

(in reply to Mentor)

Post #: 103

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 3:28:12 PM

RCHarmon

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The Soviets got a� big boost in moral after Stalingrad.� From the embarrassment against the Finns and the first year of the war behind them the victory at Stalingrad represented the beginning of the reconquest of Russia.� Tying moral to cities was a suggestion that does have historical implications.� To think that it is indefensible to think losing a city shouldn't affect moral historically is beyond me.� My point was the current system is not a good one.� During this game as the Axis offenses are dying down it seems to me that the game design is such that "well it is time to get these Soviets on their way to Berlin." ��

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 104

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 3:56:18 PM

Flaviusx

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RCH, the Soviets didn't get better because they destroyed 6. Army (and much else besides.) They destroyed 6. Army because they got better. You have the sequence of events here exactly wrong.

Also: post hoc ergo propter hoc.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/7/2012 3:58:18 PM >

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Post #: 105

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 4:14:29 PM

RCHarmon

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That is true Flaviusx they were better and became even more so after Stalingrad. It still took Hitler to cause the destruction of the 6th army and part of the 4th Panzer Army. Hitler served them up on a plate.

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Post #: 106

RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 4:15:12 PM

Flaviusx

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Well, to be sure, Hitler was the Red Army's best general.

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RE: Will there be any change to production? - 1/7/2012 5:44:11 PM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
RCH, the Soviets didn't get better because they destroyed 6. Army (and much else besides.) They destroyed 6. Army because they got better. You have the sequence of events here exactly wrong.

Suppose that is how NM is to be "read". NM is not a factor purely invented to turn the tide and influence the course of the war. It also seems to represent training of replacements and new recruits, much more so than it adds any morale factor. And improvements in proficiency for the Soviet (in contrast to pretty much immediately pressing replacements into the ranks in 41 due to the extreme disaster faced) and decay of German training over time are simply established facts, and they need to be accounted for. Either thru explicit training pools or so, or due a simpler feature such as NM.

RCH, I doubt anyone would argue that taking key cities despite heavy contesting (perhaps not under all circumstances, like voluntary evacuation without loss) would not affect the will to fight, aka moral. However, NM is not (just or at large) moral, as explained by devs earlier. Also, if there were a true morale, how much effect let's say on CV or so would you expect? And effect on desertion or other forms of discipline failure?

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 108