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- 11/14/2002 8:34:55 AM   
Admiral DadMan


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yamamoto
[B]I made a scenario when I added four more Shokaku class carriers and four more Yorktown carriers. I named the Shokaku ones Ryukaku, Zenkaku, Kikaku, and Dankaku.
[/B][/QUOTE]What should the air groups be called for the 4 new [I]Shokakus[/I]?

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Post #: 31
- 11/14/2002 4:50:28 PM   
CynicAl


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by SoulBlazer
[B]The name USS Constiution would not have been used....and never WILL be used. The name is so special in the annals of American naval history that only 'Old Ironsides' herself in Boston will bear that name. [/B][/QUOTE]
USS Constitution was decommissioned in 1882 and then recommissioned in 1931. But on September 25, 1920, she was not in commission in the US Navy and therefore her name was available, and it was assigned to one of the Lexington-class battlecruisers laid down on that date. 'Old Ironsides' was renamed to USS Old Constitution in 1917 specifically to allow her name to be reused. She was then renamed again, back to just USS Constitution, after the battlecruiser was scrapped under the Washington Naval Limitations Treaty. The 1854 USS Constellation, the last all-sail ship built for the USN, went through exactly the same renaming and re-renaming process.

***************************************************

Now then, to the matter at hand. If the IJN gets to start with N1K2s, A6M5s, B6Ns, and D4Ys, then it's only fair that the USN should get to start with F4U-4s, F6Fs, TBMs, and SB2Cs. If the IJAAF gets to start with Ki-84s, then its only fair that the USAAF should get to start with P-47Ds. If the Japanese are going to get Kikkas in 1942-43, then it's only fair that the US should get the P-80 in the same time frame, and the FH-1 a few months later.

But if we're going to be serious about our AltHist here, then here's a scheme:

USN: Add 2 extra Lexington CVs (probably Constellation and Constitution, as they were farther along than the other two; not all 4 because the WNLT required signatories to scrap all new construction that would have exceeded the Treaty limits), ditching the historical CV-4 through CV-8, and using those names for the first units of the Essex class (now named Ranger class, of course) which will be coming into service in 1939-40. Might still get the Independences converted - I can see the Navy deciding they need lots more fast flight decks in a hurry as soon as war breaks out. (Interesting thought... With the building program sped up this much, the Midways might be coming online in 1944. Mmm... Midway... )

The rationale: assuming a modification to the treaty to allow CVs of any size (IRL a loophole was made specifically to allow the Lexingtons to be converted, as they were larger than the treaty allowed), the USN might complete four battlecruisers as carriers. The navy would still get to evaluate large vs small CVs using Langley and the Lexingtons, would reach the historical conclusion that bigger is better, and would therefore skip the small and intermediate designs to go straight for the larger ships as soon as the Treaty expires. The Essex design was essentially a scaled-up Yorktown, so there's no technical reason I know of why they couldn't have made the jump once a) they were certain thelarger ships where what they wanted, and b) they didn't have to worry about the WNLT anymore.

IJN: In the same vein, give the IJN a second Akagi (Amagi), and a second Kaga (Tosa). Follow Hiryu immediately with the Unryus (two should commission in summer of 1941, two in spring or summer of 1943, and two in spring or summer of 1945). Either skip the Shokakus entirely, or substitute them for Yamatos on a two-for-one basis if you really want to go off the deep end, perhaps with two Taihos - call the second one Ryuho - instead of Shinano. But definitely skip the Junyos and assorted oddball CVLs - they just don't contribute enough to justify the time and resources spent (besides, you can use the airgroups and ship names freed up to fill out your new fleet CVs). The rationale is similar to that for the US: the same treaty modification allows Japan to complete 4 dreadnaughts as CVs, after which they get a head start on what historically became their wartime production schedule.

BTW, It's easy to name Japanese CV air groups, especially early in the war. Here's a clue: Akagi hosted three air squadrons: the Akagi Fighter Squadron, the Akagi Bomber Squadron, and the Akagi Attack Squadron. See what I mean?

_____________________________

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Post #: 32
IJN Carriers - 11/14/2002 9:02:15 PM   
tanjman


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CynicAl,

What do you think of the following IJN carriers?

Akagi (Akagi class) AI-1, AI-2 & AI-3
Amagi (Akagi class) AII-1, AII-2 & AII-3
Kaga (Kaga class) BI-1, BI-2 & BI-3
Tosa (Kaga class) BII-1, BII-2 & BII-3
Hiryu (Hiryu class) CI-1, CI-2 & CI-3
Soryu (Hiryu class) CII-1, CII-2 & CII-3
Shokaku (Shokaku class) DI-1, DI-2 & DI-3
Zuikaku (Shokaku class) DII-1, DII-2 & DII-3
Ryukaku (Shokaku class) EI-1, EI-2 & EI-3
Zenkaku (Shokaku class) EII-1, EII-2 & EII-3


The Unryu & Taiho classes aren't available in UV. I hope this won't be a problem with the WitP editor.

Now for the USN carriers:

Lexington (Lexington class) (CV-2) VF-2, VS-2, VB-2 & VT-2
Saratoga (Lexington class) (CV-3) VF-3, VS-3, VB-3 & VT-3
Constellation (Lexington class) (CV-4) VF-4, VS-4, VB-4 & VT-4
Constitution (Lexington class) (CV-5) VF-5, VS-5, VB-5 & VT-5
Yorktown (Yorktown class) (CV-6) VF-6, VS-6, VB-6 & VT-6
Enterprise (Yorktown class) (CV-7) VF-7, VS-7, VB-7 & VT-7
Essex (Essex class) (CV-8) VF-8, VS-8, VB-8 & VT-8
Ranger (Essex class) (CV-9) VF-9, VS-9, VB-9 & VT-9
Wasp (Essex class) (CV-10) VF-10, VS-10, VB-10 & VT-10
Hornet (Essex class) (CV-11) VF-11, VS-11, VB-11 & VT-11

Plus the seven Indepence class CVLs.

I don't thing we need more BBs. I'll keep the two Yamatos and the early USN Fast BBs.

As far as using more advance aircraft go, can't be done with this editor. :( So I will use what there is.

Any suggestions on how to improve the IJAAF, which sentai to add fly in which aircraft?

_____________________________

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(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 33
Re: IJN Carriers - 11/14/2002 9:51:46 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanjman
[B]CynicAl,

What do you think of the following IJN carriers?

Akagi (Akagi class) AI-1, AI-2 & AI-3
Amagi (Akagi class) AII-1, AII-2 & AII-3
Kaga (Kaga class) BI-1, BI-2 & BI-3
Tosa (Kaga class) BII-1, BII-2 & BII-3
Hiryu (Hiryu class) CI-1, CI-2 & CI-3
Soryu (Hiryu class) CII-1, CII-2 & CII-3
Shokaku (Shokaku class) DI-1, DI-2 & DI-3
Zuikaku (Shokaku class) DII-1, DII-2 & DII-3
Ryukaku (Shokaku class) EI-1, EI-2 & EI-3
Zenkaku (Shokaku class) EII-1, EII-2 & EII-3
[/B][/QUOTE]Be careful naming those Air Groups. To do what you propose, you'll have to re-name some other IJN CV airgroups

[QUOTE] I don't thing we need more BBs. I'll keep the two Yamatos and the early USN Fast BBs.
[/QUOTE] I took them out. I also removed the three [I]New Mexico[/I] class, [I]USS Nevada[/I], and [I]USS Indiana[/I].

_____________________________

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(\../)
(O.o)
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CVB Langley:

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 34
Re: IJN Carriers - 11/14/2002 11:04:09 PM   
Yamamoto

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanjman
[B]CynicAl,

What do you think of the following IJN carriers?

Akagi (Akagi class) AI-1, AI-2 & AI-3
Amagi (Akagi class) AII-1, AII-2 & AII-3
Kaga (Kaga class) BI-1, BI-2 & BI-3
Tosa (Kaga class) BII-1, BII-2 & BII-3
Hiryu (Hiryu class) CI-1, CI-2 & CI-3
Soryu (Hiryu class) CII-1, CII-2 & CII-3
Shokaku (Shokaku class) DI-1, DI-2 & DI-3
Zuikaku (Shokaku class) DII-1, DII-2 & DII-3
Ryukaku (Shokaku class) EI-1, EI-2 & EI-3
Zenkaku (Shokaku class) EII-1, EII-2 & EII-3

[/B][/QUOTE]

I used W, X, Y, and Z for the air groups I added. This way it doesn't conflict with other pre-existing ones that use D and E.

[QUOTE][B]
The Unryu & Taiho classes aren't available in UV. I hope this won't be a problem with the WitP editor.
[/B][/QUOTE]

If you could, theoretically, replace two ship classes in UV to 'make room' for the Unryu and the Taiho which two would you remove?

[QUOTE][B]
As far as using more advance aircraft go, can't be done with this editor. :( So I will use what there is.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Same question for the planes. Which planes would you replace and which ones would you add?

Yamamoto

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 35
- 11/15/2002 2:35:07 AM   
XPav

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by CynicAl
[B]
But if we're going to be serious about our AltHist here, then here's a scheme:

USN: Add 2 extra Lexington CVs (probably Constellation and Constitution, as they were farther along than the other two; not all 4 because the WNLT required signatories to scrap all new construction that would have exceeded the Treaty limits), ditching the historical CV-4 through CV-8, and using those names for the first units of the Essex class (now named Ranger class, of course) which will be coming into service in 1939-40.

The rationale: assuming a modification to the treaty to allow CVs of any size (IRL a loophole was made specifically to allow the Lexingtons to be converted, as they were larger than the treaty allowed), the USN might complete four battlecruisers as carriers. The navy would still get to evaluate large vs small CVs using Langley and the Lexingtons, would reach the historical conclusion that bigger is better, and would therefore skip the small and intermediate designs to go straight for the larger ships as soon as the Treaty expires. The Essex design was essentially a scaled-up Yorktown, so there's no technical reason I know of why they couldn't have made the jump once a) they were certain thelarger ships where what they wanted, and b) they didn't have to worry about the WNLT anymore.
[/QUOTE]

Langley sucked. It was slow, and not suitable for proper experimentation. They needed Ranger to figure out that smaller carriers didn't work.

The Yorktown-class was designed on the experience with Lexington. The [I]Essex[/I]-class was designed based on the experiences with the Yorktown-class. I think a jump from Lexington to [I]Essex[/I] without any other carriers being built to experiment is a bit of a stretch. Remember, they really didn't know what would prove to be the most effective.

It'll make the game more playable, sure, and I got no complaints with that, but the historical justification is a reach.

quote:

(Interesting thought... With the building program sped up this much, the Midways might be coming online in 1944. Mmm... Midway... )


Midway.... do you make the air strike show up late than due to the need to wait while the entire air group gets launched? Without the provisions for simultaneous launch, after all, the Midways wouldn't have been able to launch their massive (144 planes) airgroup as fast as smaller fleet carriers. Sure, post-war, they were the only ships large enough to launch the bigger aircraft, but a massive 1944-era air group would have been unwieldy.

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Post #: 36
Battleships - 11/15/2002 3:49:11 AM   
tanjman


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Admiral DadMan,

Why did you remove the Yamatos, the three New Mexico class, USS Nevada, and USS Indiana? I'm not criticizing, just curious.

Yamamoto,

I would replace the Junyo & Soryu with the Unryu and the Taiho. I would do this since the Junyo is a marginal fleet carrier and the the Soryu & Hiryu a a close match I would get rid of the Soryu.

The planes require some thought on my part. I'll try not to blow a fuse ;) and get back to you on it.

_____________________________

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Post #: 37
- 11/15/2002 4:26:05 AM   
Toro


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Sorry to jump in late, but one comment on ship names:

I think using the [I]United States[/I] would be inconsistent with ship naming protocol. Reason: warships are generally (key word) not named after the country as the sinking of the ship has allegedly profound psychological impact. I know there was a frigate in the early years, etc, but this doesn't happen much in "modern" days. Just a note.

(in reply to corbulo)
Post #: 38
names - 11/15/2002 4:44:58 AM   
mogami


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Hi Prior to the US civil war there was an USS United States. Presently there is a USS America.

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Post #: 39
Re: Battleships - 11/15/2002 5:40:48 AM   
Admiral DadMan


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanjman
[B]Admiral DadMan,

Why did you remove the Yamatos, the three New Mexico class, USS Nevada, and USS Indiana? I'm not criticizing, just curious. [/B][/QUOTE]No offense taken :)

I did it for balance, as I have often seen it written that Japan did not have the shipyard capacity to build those monsters [B]and[/B] more carriers at the same time.

I decided to remove the US BB's not only as further balance, but also because the New Mexico Class was short on endurace and really not well suited to employment. And I felt guilty.

In my scenario, IJN receives 4 addional CV's:[list]
  • [I]Amagi [/I]([I]Amagi/Akagi[/I] Class)
  • [I]Tosa[/I] ([I]Kaga[/I] Class)
  • [I]Ryukaku[/I] ([I]Shokaku[/I] Class)
  • [I]Zenkaku[/I] ([I]Shokaku[/I] Class)
    [/list]
    The last two [I]Shokakus[/I] are delayed to fall '42, as the first two were only delivered in mid- '41, so this seems reasonable.

    On the US side, I built all six [I]Lexingtons[/I], and had the first two [I]Yorktowns[/I] enter service in mid-42. The [I]Essexes[/I] kept their arrival dates, and I added two more that would have been available at that time in PH: [I]Lexington II[/I] (CV-16); and [I]Yorktown II[/I] (CV-10). I renamed them [I]Hornet[/I] and [I]Wasp[/I]

    The US still gets six pre-war CV's but Japan gets eight and then 2 more in the first year of the war. The US get two more in the first year, and then five more thru '43. Japan gets hers as per the OOB.

    My premise is that to keep the six [I]Lexingtons[/I], the US makes a deal with Japan, and they build the two [I]Amagi/Akagi[/I] Class, the two [I]Kaga[/I] Class to equal. The US agrees to stretch out the building of the last two [I]Lexingtons[/I], and use them to replace the first two (as the first two would be 15 years old by then. When Japan pulls out of the Washington Naval Treaty in 1934 (which ends in 1936), the US decides to time the building to be completed when the Treaty expires, so the last two [I]Lexingtons[/I] commission in 1937 and 1938, respectively. By that time the two [I]Yorktowns[/I] are on the ways already, and [I]Essex[/I] is not far behind. Japan has realized this, and orders the four [I]Shokakus[/I]. The first two deliver as history dictates in 1941 in time to strike Pearl Harbor, and the second pair arrive in 1942.

    My only concern is pilot/aircraft replacement schedules and whether or not they can keep up. If they can't, more carriers are useless, as Japan found out in late 1943...

    _____________________________

    Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
    (\../)
    (O.o)
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    CVB Langley:

    (in reply to corbulo)
  • Post #: 40
    Re: names - 11/15/2002 5:42:49 AM   
    Admiral DadMan


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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
    [B]Hi Prior to the US civil war there was an USS United States. Presently there is a USS America. [/B][/QUOTE]In 1955 or so, there was a proposed Super Carrier named United States

    _____________________________

    Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
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    (O.o)
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    Post #: 41
    - 11/15/2002 6:45:04 AM   
    SoulBlazer

     

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    I did'nt know that about the Constiution. I just could'nt think of a ship since then that was named that.

    Yes, the proposed super carrier was called USS United States. I have to agree it would be a bad idea to name a ship that, though.

    I believe the last carrier launched was the [I]Nimitiz[/I] class USS [I]Ronald Regan[/I] I think the oldest carrier in active service in the US Navy currently is the [I]Enterprise[/I].

    (in reply to corbulo)
    Post #: 42
    - 11/15/2002 8:00:43 AM   
    Admiral DadMan


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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by XPav
    [B]
    Midway.... the Midways wouldn't have been able to launch their massive (144 planes) airgroup as fast as smaller fleet carriers. Sure, post-war, they were the only ships large enough to launch the bigger aircraft, but a massive 1944-era air group would have been unwieldy. [/B][/QUOTE]IIRC the Air Group plan for the Midway CVB's was for 3 VF/VMF groups (about 75 aircaft) 2 for CAP, one for escort, and 3 strike groups (SB2C's and TBF's) totalling about 60 aircraft. That would have given them roughly the same strike capabililty as an Essex in 1943.

    Anyway, this is a WitP discussion... not UV.

    _____________________________

    Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
    (\../)
    (O.o)
    (> <)

    CVB Langley:

    (in reply to corbulo)
    Post #: 43
    - 11/15/2002 9:25:56 AM   
    XPav

     

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    [URL=http://groups.google.com/groups?q=essex+air+group&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&selm=4l34mf%24jqi%40bigboote.WPI.EDU&rnum=2]Why the Midways weren't as useful as their spec suggest.[/URL]

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    Post #: 44
    - 11/15/2002 10:08:07 AM   
    CynicAl


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    One thing at a time, and I'll try to keep them all in order.

    Tanjman:
    First, one question: What's a "zenkaku?" I don't have a problem with "Ryukaku," which (I think) translates to "Dragon and Crane Together." Might I suggest "Hikaku" ("Flying Crane" - I think) for a fourth Shokaku?

    Consider that the Unryu class were very similar to the Hiryu, which is in the game... As for the WitP editor, I don't think there's any chance that they will not include Unryu and Taiho. And Shinano. And several others that aren't present in UV, for the good and simple reason that they weren't available in the timeframe covered by UV.

    In light of XPav's post, yeah, I can see a need for at least one intermediate step between the Lexington and Essex classes. The problem is, we're going to need to either greatly expand the treaty limits on total carrier tonnage, or start the experimentation process pretty late - or free up Treaty tonnage by not building Connie and Connie (obviously the most realistic thing to do, but also the least interesting). Let me think this one over for a while.

    Admiral Dadman:
    I don't think renaming existing airgroups is going to be that big a problem. Remember that the CVs that CI-III and DI-III were historically attached to aren't going to be present in this scenario. Alternatively, you could just make brand new airgroups with brand new ID codes. ;)

    Yamamoto:
    I thought I was clear enough before: if it were possible, I'd swap out all the smaller IJN carriers from Junyo down. Ryuho for sure, since I want to use her name for a second Taiho, the rest because... well, you know.

    I was mostly being facetious about the advanced aircraft. I was serious about not giving either side 1945 (or later, for the Kikka) aircraft types and leaving the other side with 1942 types.

    XPav:
    Good point about the need for, at the very least, one intermediate stage for experimentation between the Lexington and Essex classes.

    I had a couple of thoughts about the CVBs. One possibility might be splitting the air groups into day (~2/3rds) and night (~1/3rd) divisions, which would keep strikes down to a manageable size. The other would be to simply have all the extra 30 or so aircraft (relative to the Essex class) be fighters - they wouldn't launch more powerful strikes, but it'd be harder to get through their CAP. It would amount to operating an extra fighter squadron aboard, but it might be considered cheating as it uses hindsight to anticipate the events of 1945 and jump ahead of the historic trend toward ever-larger fighter complements.

    Admiral Dadman, again:
    I agree with you on the pilot and aircraft replacement rates - they are definitely going to be a limiting factor, as they should be. However, removing six smaller IJN flattops (Junyo, Hiyo, Ryujo, Zuiho, Shoho, and Ryuho) should go part of the way toward compensating for the addition of four new fleet carriers.

    SoulBlazer, Mogami, et al:
    USN ship naming conventions are a hoot, aren't they? Best of all, they keep changing 'em! But not always for the worse: there are rumors that the next generation of carriers (CVN-78 and on) are going to revert to "classic" ship names - Lexington and Saratoga are supposed to be high on the list.

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 45
    - 11/15/2002 11:39:48 AM   
    XPav

     

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    What would make sense is just making lots of Yorktown-class carriers and forgetting about the Essex class.

    For Yorktown gets commisioned in 1942, it'd have to be laid down in late 39 probably. It would make sense then, that all the wartime fleet carriers would be produced to its design, with small variations.

    So ditch the Essex-class completely. I'd try and get Ranger or Wasp in their in its historical design, just so you would have proper justification to say that larger carriers were superior.

    Now, Midway... splitting the airgroup isn't a bad idea, but you know users would just end up using the night fighters in the daytime anyway, and you're going to have to come up with some sort of penalty.

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 46
    WitP vs UV - 11/15/2002 8:40:48 PM   
    tanjman


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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    [B]Anyway, this is a WitP discussion... not UV. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Admiral DadMan,

    :o Actually I've been talking about how to modify scenario 17 in UV using the editor.

    One of the things I've decided to do is increase the base forces for both sides as follows:

    Currently in scenario 17:
    4th Base Force (IJA) (Truk): 30 x engineers, 150 x aviation support & 90 support.

    Modified scenario 17:
    4th Army Base Force (IJA) (Truk): 27 x engineer, 162 x aviation support & 60 support.
    4th Naval Base Force (IJN) (Truk): 18 x engineer, 108 x aviation support & 40 support.
    For a total of: 45 x engineer, 270 x aviation support & 100 support.

    The 8th Base Force at Rabaul would be the same. With maybe two more sets like this to support a total of four large bases.

    The other small Japanese base forces would be:
    Army Base Force:9 x engineer, 54 x aviation support & 24 support.
    Naval Base Force:6 x engineer, 36 x aviation support & 16 support.
    For a total of: 15 x engineer, 90 x aviation support & 40 support.

    The Allied base force mods would be simular.

    I'm also thinking of increasing the IJAAF by adding units and moving up the arrival dates were possible.

    I'm also thinking of increasing the amount of CVs on both sides.

    I was just looking for input and suggestions when I began posting on this thread. Of which I've gotten some good ones. :D

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    Post #: 47
    - 11/15/2002 9:11:11 PM   
    Admiral DadMan


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    tanjman,

    I just re-read that line, and it seems it came out backwards. I was refering to the [I]Midway[/I] debate and that it didn't fit the time line of our little microcosim of UV.

    The US would never have been able to get them ready in the UV timeframe and so not a discussion we should have devolved to here:). I didn't want our little hijacked thread to get hijacked again:D.

    Anyway, back to [I]our[/I] (yours, mine, and those in the UV timeframe), I like what we've come up with here, and I'm going to take a lot of the ideas we've thrown out here. Keep on truckin'

    ___________
    CynicAl:

    I actually did just was you were suggesting, but I took care to make sure I didn't duplicate what was already in the database. Either I changed what I was creating, or I changed what existed.

    ___________
    SoulBlazer:

    I actually had to look up who the H3LL [I]John C. Stennis[/I] was for the CVAN he got his name on.

    ___________
    XPav:

    I figure that the [I]Essex[/I] Class was far enough away that even in 1939, the US would still have laid down at least 2 of the [I]Yorktowns[/I] and then moved to [I]Essex[/I]

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    CVB Langley:

    (in reply to corbulo)
    Post #: 48
    - 11/15/2002 9:15:58 PM   
    SoulBlazer

     

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    Yes, well, I only knew that because of my degrees. :) I agree I don't much care for naming CV's after people these days....save that for other ships.

    The CombinedFleet website, in the Underdogs article, makes very good educated guess on what US and Japanese carriers would have joined the fleet from 8/45 to 12/46. Just in case anyone is interested. :)

    (in reply to corbulo)
    Post #: 49
    - 11/16/2002 4:00:56 AM   
    XPav

     

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    [B]XPav:

    I figure that the [I]Essex[/I] Class was far enough away that even in 1939, the US would still have laid down at least 2 of the [I]Yorktowns[/I] and then moved to [I]Essex[/I] [/B][/QUOTE]

    Why? Hornet was laid down to the Yorktown design because it was done and they wanted the carrier, not because it was the best solution. You can't design the Essex-class unless you have experience with the Yorktown class, and when the brown fecal matter hits the rotating blade, you've got to go with what you go.

    In your scenario, the carrier design that you've got as the "latest and greatest" is the Yorktown, so its reasonable to believe that all wartime construction CV design would be to that design.

    It takes a long time to design something as big as a carrier, and its unreasonable that you'd have two seperate design groups working on two seperate designs for fleet carriers of similar displacement.

    Modifications? Yes -- see long hull vs short hull Essex class. Figure out an "improved" Yorktown class carrying more AA. That's what would make sense.

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    Post #: 50
    - 11/16/2002 5:33:21 AM   
    Admiral DadMan


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    XPav:

    The premise that I'm working on is that [I]Yorktown[/I] Class was being developed during the early thirties, but the committment to finish the [I]Lexington[/I] Class hulls pushed [I]Yorktown[/I] out to the late thirties.

    I reason that as [I]Yorktown[/I] is an early thirties design and only 2 were orders, the natural progression would then be to [I]Essex[/I]. As [I]Hornet[/I] was a modified [I]Yorktown[/I], and [I]Essex[/I] was ready to be laid down, I simply assigned the name to the next class. It works in my mind :cool:

    I'm merely putting my own theoretical spin on things in my own little world...:D

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    CVB Langley:

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    Post #: 51
    - 11/16/2002 6:11:34 AM   
    XPav

     

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    [B]The premise that I'm working on is that [I]Yorktown[/I] Class was being developed during the early thirties, but the committment to finish the [I]Lexington[/I] Class hulls pushed [I]Yorktown[/I] out to the late thirties.
    [/QUOTE]

    Wouldn't it make more sense to finish the later Lexingtons to modified designs? See the RN -- all of its post-war carriers (save Victorious) were ships that were suspended at the conclusion of WW2 and restarted 5-10 years later in various differing configurations. The situation is 100% analagous to what you're talking about.

    [QUOTE]I reason that as [I]Yorktown[/I] is an early thirties design and only 2 were orders, the natural progression would then be to [I]Essex[/I]. As [I]Hornet[/I] was a modified [I]Yorktown[/I], and [I]Essex[/I] was ready to be laid down, I simply assigned the name to the next class. It works in my mind :cool:

    I'm merely putting my own theoretical spin on things in my own little world...:D [/B][/QUOTE]

    But my point is that there isn't any "natural progression" from one design to the other. You get from Lexington to Yorktown to Essex with large chunks of time in between them to digest the operational experience of the previous class. Skipping steps is not permitted! Go to the end of the lunch line! :D

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    Post #: 52
    - 11/16/2002 6:15:18 AM   
    Admiral DadMan


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    No soup for me! Next!

    It may be pretzel logic, but it works for me.:cool:

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    CVB Langley:

    (in reply to corbulo)
    Post #: 53
    - 11/16/2002 7:01:21 AM   
    XPav

     

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    [B]No soup for me! Next!

    It may be pretzel logic, but it works for me.:cool: [/B][/QUOTE]

    Well, pretzel logic is understandable, considering the dark glasses that happy face is wearing... :D

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    Post #: 54
    - 11/16/2002 2:03:33 PM   
    CynicAl


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    I still have some problems with the idea of finishing up the fifth and sixth Lexington class in the mid-30s. First, as previously mentioned, the WNLT specifically required that ships not allowed under the treaty be scrapped. That included ships under construction at the time. I just don't see the US being allowed to keep the keels around, slowly working on them until time for the "construction holiday" to expire - that's directly counter to the spirit of the treaty. (Yes, other nations cheated, some quite blatantly. But none of them had a pennypinching US Congress breathing down their necks to encourage treaty compliance and - more importantly - thrift.) Second, I'm not certain the USN would want the ships after they sat, incomplete, in drydock for 15+ years - time and the elements can be very unkind to exposed metal. (Think Charles de Gaulle.) No, I think any Lexingtons not converted by 1930 never will be. But that could be okay.

    Try this:
    The four Lexington class CVs enter service in the late 1920's (2 in 1927, 1 in 1928, 1 in 1929). So by 1930, with these four to play with, the Navy no longer has a great deal of interest in old, slow Langley. In an effort to make something useful out of her, they send her back to the yards for a more complete conversion. Strip her down to the waterline, lengthen and blister the hull, install a new machinery plant... rebuild her as a "real" CV (CVL?). (See some of the Italian BB rebuilds during this period - literally anything is possible. Bonus 1: it might well be easier to sell Congress on the idea of refitting Langley than on building an entirely new ship. Bonus 2: as an "experimental carrier," Langley didn't count toward US treaty compliance.) What emerges from the yards in about 1933-34 is somewhere between the RL Ranger and Independence in size and capability. She'll spend the war doing what Ranger did.

    In late 1933, the US lays down its first carriers designed as such from the keel up: CV-6 Ranger and CV-7 Enterprise, the RL Yorktown class. (Note: IRL, CV-5 was laid down the month before CV-4 commissioned, CV-6 the month after. There wasn't a lot of time for "lessons learned" to be incorporated into the design phase, and not much more time during construction.) The two Ranger class CVs commission in 1936 and 37 respectively; by then, their successors are already being planned.

    Three years of exercises with the Lexingtons and the refitted Langley led BuShips to the conclusion that when it came to carriers, bigger was better. So they decided to expand on the most modern design available to them - the brand-new Rangers. Work commenced immediately on a design for a super-Ranger displacing 30,000 tons, and the first of the new Yorktown (RL Essex) class was laid down at the start of 1940 and was destined to be completed in mid-1942.

    But Newport News needed something to do in the years between 1937 and 1940, and warclouds loomed on the horizon east and west. So the Navy ordered two more Rangers, to a slightly modified design, to fill the gap after CV-7. These two ships became CV-8 Wasp and CV-9 Hornet, and entered service in early 1940 and mid 1941 respectively. (Deliberately skipping the RL Wasp - it was basically a stripped-out [iYorktown, trying to get its weight down enough to squeeze one more flight deck in under the Treaty tonnage cap. That extra weight was badly needed, though; Wasp was significantly less effective than her cousins. Here, the US decides that going 5k tons over the total CV tonage limit is barely acceptable. Hornet is laid down when the outbreak of war in Europe invalidates the treaties.)

    So on December 7, 1941, the USN has:
    1 Langley class:
    CV-1 Langley
    Greatly improved by her extensive rebuilding, but still small, slow, and vulnerable.

    4 Lexington class:
    CV-2 Lexington
    CV-3 Constellation
    CV-4 Saratoga
    CV-5 Constitution
    Big, fast, and tough, but inefficient and in need of overhauls.

    4 Ranger class:
    CV-6 Ranger
    CV-7 Enterprise
    CV-8 Wasp
    CV-9 Hornet
    Fast, efficient, flexible, and in very good condition, but still vulnerable (especially to underwater damage). These ships will most likely be the core of the carrier fleet until the Yorktown and her sisters arrive.

    The Yorktown will commission on July 4, 1942, the first of a new breed. Eight will arrive in the time period covered by UV:
    CV-10 Yorktown (7/42)
    CV-11 Essex (11/42)
    CV-12 Bon Homme Richard (4/43)
    CV-13 Intrepid (4/43)
    CV-14 Kearsarge (6/43)
    CV-17 Randolph (9/42)
    CV-18 Bunker Hill (12/42)
    CV-19 Oriskany (4/43).
    Bear in mind that these dates refer to comissioning: the ships would still have to shake down, work up, and transit to the theater; that's likely to put the actual availability dates back by months.

    BTW, I can't believe nobody's picking apart my alt-IJN building plan. What gives?

    _____________________________

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    Some days you're the bug.

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    Post #: 55
    Alt-USN CV classes - 11/16/2002 8:49:19 PM   
    tanjman


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    CynicAl,

    I like your ideas on the alt-USN CV classes. I take it you also mean to keep the real life Independences as is?

    As far as your alt-IJN building plan goes, I'm sorry I can't make you happy by nitpicking it ;) because I like that one too.

    Anyone have any ideas on which sentai I could add for the IJAAF?

    _____________________________

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    (in reply to corbulo)
    Post #: 56
    - 11/17/2002 2:43:07 AM   
    Admiral DadMan


    Posts: 3627
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by CynicAl
    Consider that the Unryu class were very similar to the Hiryu, which is in the game.[/QUOTE]The only thing is that Unryu had a capcity of almost 10 less that Hiryu. Does anyone know why that was?

    [QUOTE]In light of XPav's post, yeah, I can see a need for at least one intermediate step between the Lexington and Essex classes. The problem is, we're going to need to either greatly expand the treaty limits on total carrier tonnage, or start the experimentation process pretty late - or free up Treaty tonnage by not building Connie and Connie (obviously the most realistic thing to do, but also the least interesting). Let me think this one over for a while. [/QUOTE] Ok, if you want to not sway so far into Fantasyland, here would be my thesis-

    The WNLT limit on CV's is 135,000 tons, so we get 3 Lexington class converted:[list]
  • Lexington @ 33,000 in 1927
  • Saratoga @ 33,000 in 1927
  • Constellation @ 33,000 in 1928
    [/list] which totals up to 99,000 leaving about 36,000

    The small CV crowd gets Ranger @ 14,500 in laid down in 1930 and commissioned in 1934, leaving about 21,000 tons.

    The way that I read history, the next class was being designed as the current one was being built. So you get Yorktown @19,900 laid down a month before Ranger (the waif) is commissioned in 1934 (which really happened IRL). Yorktown uses up the final tonnage allotment of the Treaty, and is commissioned in 1937.

    When the Treaty expires in 1936, 2 more Yorktowns (Enterprise and Hornet) are laid down, comissioning in 1940 and joining the fleet later that year. (Historically, Wasp was built under the treaty tonnage remaining IRL, so because Yorktown is the "Treaty carrier" there's no reason to build Wasp).

    That brings us to the next class on the drawing boards, which is Essex, which I think is fair to leave the arrival dates as they were. In the naming convention, the second in the class gets the name Wasp.

    The waif Ranger doesn't figure in the Pacific becuase as in IRL she just doesn't measure up for Pacific duty, So here is the line-up:[list]3 Lexington class:
    Lexington CV-2 Comm. 1927
    Saratoga CV-3 Comm. 1927
    Constellation CV-4 Comm. 1928

    1 Ranger class:
    Ranger CV-5 Comm. 1934. (She serves in Atlantic only)

    3 Yorktown class:
    Yorktown CV-6, Comm. 1937
    Enterprise CV-7, Comm. 1941
    Hornet CV-8, Comm. 1941

    5+ Essex class:
    Essex CV-9 Comm. Jan 1943
    Wasp CV-10 Comm. Apr 1943
    Intrepid CV-11 Comm. Nov 1943
    Kearsage CV-16 Comm. Feb 1943
    Bunker Hill CV-17 Comm. May 1943[/list]
    Essentialy, all that happens is that you build the third Lexington (Constellation) instead of little Wasp

    Japan converts Tosa (Kaga class) to balance the third Lexington. Soryu is comm in 1937 and Hiryu is built 2 years later so none of this affects any of Japan's building.

    Like? no Like?

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    CVB Langley:

    (in reply to corbulo)
  • Post #: 57
    - 11/17/2002 5:15:44 AM   
    XPav

     

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    Essentialy, all that happens is that you build the third Lexington (Constellation) instead of little Wasp
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Historically feasible, but now when you put it back to UV, you get... err... not a lot of changes.

    Why don't you add a couple of the never built US XCV -- Hiyo/Junyo fast liner conversions?

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    Post #: 58
    Liner Conversions... - 11/17/2002 10:17:24 AM   
    RevRick


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    Are you referring to liner conversions as in the proposal for the conversion of the Normandie ( I believe)? An 80,000 ton CV in WWII.

    The Hornet was completed to the Yorktown design because the Essex design hadn't been far enough advanced to begin pulling material together prior to laying the keel at the time it was felt another CV was going to be needed - and that time line was cut real fine as it was. Otherwise Hornet would have been the lead ship of the follow up class to the Yorktown.

    I don't think that additional Lexington would have been built because the discussions about CV design was rather rancorous as it was between the big ship and little ship - and throw in Pratt's desire for a combination Cruiser/CV design into the mix, we were real lucky to get Ranger as a "prototype" Yorktown anyway. I would add a fourth Yorktown vice the Wasp, and add Wasp in place of the fourth Essex - the second was to have been Bon Homme Richard which would have commissioned between Essex and Bunker Hill. Wasp then would have come onboard somtime between Bunker Hill and Intrepid. .

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    Post #: 59
    Re: Liner Conversions... - 11/18/2002 2:19:33 PM   
    XPav

     

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by RevRick
    [B]Are you referring to liner conversions as in the proposal for the conversion of the Normandie ( I believe)? An 80,000 ton CV in WWII.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Nope. I'm talking about the ~1930 plans to convert various liner (Californias, Mariposas, Manhattans, into ~20kt, ~30,000t carriers carring around 50 aircraft a piece.

    By 1940, the plans were impractical, but some reason could be provided to have them put together in the mid 30's, you could have a couple sucky carriers to line up against Hiyo and Junyo.

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    Post #: 60
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