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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg

 
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RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/27/2012 8:54:08 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I was offering a title, not necessarily a timeline. 

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 151
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/27/2012 9:10:23 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
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Status: offline 		@aw1steve,

I concur that sane leaders of both sides sought to avoid war, but by pressing the issue at Sumter Lincoln applied maximum pressure on the nascent CSA and presented them with with a very tricky choice, given the confluence of pride, sovereignty, fire eating, etc. Similar to FDR, I don't think Lincoln necessarily wanted war, but if it were to come he wanted it on his terms and he got it that way.

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Post #: 152
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/28/2012 12:33:51 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
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From: Eastern US
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Yes, but by the time Lincoln was inaugurated the South (more precisely, individual states) had already seized all of the United States forts and arsenals except for two; Ft. Pickens in Florida, and Sumter.


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well the problem for the South was that the North refused to give up Federal forts of which there were many in the South. Not the best situation for sovereign states to have Alien forts at the entrance to major commercial waterways and ports. (Did somebody say China?) Sumter was just one of many. So yes, I suppose they were baiting the Southerners into a fight. And they got one...




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Post #: 153
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/28/2012 12:43:42 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The core strength of the United States is the balance between the rights of the states vs the rights of the federal government. This fundamental element is why we are what we are today.


I'll quibble with this only to the extent of saying that the core principle/strength of the United States is balancing the liberty of individuals vs the powers of government at all levels. Federalism -- dividing powers between states and the federal government, is one tool to accomplish this, as is the division of federal authority among the executive, legislative and judicial branches.

quote:


Was the South justified in suceeding from the North? You can argue, states rights to the end of time but the simple fact that the South would have retained the instituion of slavery would have nulified any argument in my mind.


+1 !

< Message edited by Blackhorse -- 3/28/2012 12:45:30 AM >

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Post #: 154
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/28/2012 2:11:53 AM   
FDRLincoln


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Status: offline 		I am a Northerner born and bred (and very extremely distantly related to Dan Sickles of all people) and I am impressed on how civil this discussion has stayed.



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Post #: 155
Sumter and the continuation of politics by other means - 3/28/2012 3:24:49 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		The southern leadership felt they had little choice but to attack Fort Sumter. After the successful coup d’etat by the Texas Rangers against Governor Houston (elected on an Unionist platform), southern succession had stalled and Arkansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia had all rejected secession. Most industry in what became the Confederacy was found in VA and TN. Given what happened in Kentucky and Maryland, it is likely that had the status quo been accepted, the Union would have established firm control of all those states by the fall as the fever pitch of secession passed and the border states calculated their economic interests. Meanwhile one would expect a buildup of the US Army and Navy and improvement in the northern states’ militia which were generally behind the level of readiness of southern states.
Lincoln’s strategy was to undercut the Confederacy by all means short of war. His plan was to use Sumter, Pickens, and the navy to enforce US tariff laws, and any other governmental powers he could short of war, while refusing to recognize the Confederacy. He would have had the opportunity to reinforce the effect by enforcing non-importation of arms without a license. Harpers’ Ferry, containing the machinery that was the core of Southern arms production for the first year of the war. Then the agrarian states of the Deep South are in a position of supporting the US government through their tariffs (which would be rising in 1862 under the Republican party platform), trying to support creation of a national army and arms industry, supporting the frontier wars in Texas, or leaving Texas dissatisfied at the level of support. With the prospect that Lincoln might successfully provoke a war at a time of his choosing. Given the history of Southern politics during the Civil War, the idea of secession from the CSA would have been a very real prospect.
In the end, the Confederacy would likely have collapsed with a lot less bloodshed and resistance, and no immediate abolition would have been possible.

(in reply to FDRLincoln)
Post #: 156
RE: Sumter and the continuation of politics by other means - 3/28/2012 5:53:45 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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Status: offline 		CR mentioned Peter Cozzen's works earlier. My esteemed Southern Friend, who put me on to this magnificent author, neglected to mention his recent work on the the Valley Campaign. This book just arrived here and has a nice round 700 pages of reading within it. Cannot wait..

The discussion here has been delightful and quite well toned as well as reasoned.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/28/2012 5:54:46 PM >

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Post #: 157
RE: Sumter and the continuation of politics by other means - 3/28/2012 7:24:37 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Ya know, every year, the USMHI offers Staff Rides over a number of important battlefields. They have briefing books, and focus on all the individual actions that made for the battle. One day, two days, whatever. Gettysburg is the sine qua non. Absolutely everything from both sides is included. Three days of utter fatigue and things coming at you, from both sides, until your head explodes.

Never really understood why the Staff Ride thing was restricted to the Military, or DOD pukes, or visiting Foreign a$$holes. This is exactly the kind of thing that a righteous citizen would be interested in, and exactly the kind of thing that our Military/Government should encourage. But what do I know.

There is a monster anniversary coming up. The Govt hopes you will all forget. There will be a Staff Ride. There will be some special briefing books. You can find out the details (by righteously looking) and join on in. I encourage all who have interest in this period, to attend. You will be very pleased, because the professionals who are doing this are willing and frikkin eager to talk about the military aspects of this engagement and the whole war, in general.

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Post #: 158
RE: Sumter and the continuation of politics by other means - 3/28/2012 9:54:12 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Ya know, every year, the USMHI offers Staff Rides over a number of important battlefields. They have briefing books, and focus on all the individual actions that made for the battle. One day, two days, whatever. Gettysburg is the sine qua non. Absolutely everything from both sides is included. Three days of utter fatigue and things coming at you, from both sides, until your head explodes.

Never really understood why the Staff Ride thing was restricted to the Military, or DOD pukes, or visiting Foreign a$$holes. This is exactly the kind of thing that a righteous citizen would be interested in, and exactly the kind of thing that our Military/Government should encourage. But what do I know.

There is a monster anniversary coming up. The Govt hopes you will all forget. There will be a Staff Ride. There will be some special briefing books. You can find out the details (by righteously looking) and join on in. I encourage all who have interest in this period, to attend. You will be very pleased, because the professionals who are doing this are willing and frikkin eager to talk about the military aspects of this engagement and the whole war, in general.



I have a couple of the staff ride books in my collection Gettysburg and Chickamauga, I followed through the Gettysburg book while at Gettysburg for the first two days.

The books are quite interesting taking you on essentially a guided tour of the battle field with excerpts from official reports etc.One of the interesting parts of the tour was following Longstreet's march and counter march, which takes you away from the tourists at the more visited sections of the park.

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(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 159
RE: Sumter and the continuation of politics by other means - 3/28/2012 11:10:28 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I've been reading an article about Gettysburg in the July 28, 1863, issue of the Southern Recorder (Milledgeville, GA) newspaper.  I've only made it about two colums in, but I'm amazed at the accuracy of the description of the layout of the battlefield and the account of the attack on the Union left by Longstreet's Corps and Anderson's Division of A.P. Hill's Corps on the second day of the battle.  I figured a contemporary account would be very confused and misleading, but whoever penned this article got it right.  Some of the very topics we've discussed in this thread are referred to.  [Hope this link works; if not, I'll try to fix it.]

http://milledgeville.galileo.usg.edu/milledgeville/view?docId=news/srw1863/srw1863-0117.xml&query=48th Georgia&brand=milledgeville-brand

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 3/28/2012 11:11:45 PM >

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 160
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/28/2012 11:31:41 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

I am a Northerner born and bred (and very extremely distantly related to Dan Sickles of all people) ...



Wasn't Sickles the only Union Corps commander not to have a monument on the battlefield?

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Post #: 161
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/29/2012 7:20:29 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

I am a Northerner born and bred (and very extremely distantly related to Dan Sickles of all people) ...



Wasn't Sickles the only Union Corps commander not to have a monument on the battlefield?

I think Georgia and Virginia wanted to put one up back in 1875, or so.

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Post #: 162
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/29/2012 7:49:22 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

I am a Northerner born and bred (and very extremely distantly related to Dan Sickles of all people) ...



Wasn't Sickles the only Union Corps commander not to have a monument on the battlefield?

I think Georgia and Virginia wanted to put one up back in 1875, or so.


That's almost as unflattering as Ridley Scott's recent portrayal of Sickles in his 2-hour depiction of the battle for the History Channel.

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Post #: 163
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/30/2012 2:41:47 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
Wasn't Sickles the only Union Corps commander not to have a monument on the battlefield?


I especially like this, from Wikipedia:

Of the principal senior generals who fought at Gettysburg, virtually all, with the conspicuous exception of Sickles, have been memorialized with statues at Gettysburg. When asked why there was no memorial to him, Sickles supposedly said, "The entire battlefield is a memorial to Dan Sickles." However, there was, in fact, a memorial commissioned to include a bust of Sickles, the monument to the New York Excelsior Brigade. It was rumored that the money appropriated for the bust was stolen by Sickles himself; the monument is displayed in the Peach Orchard with a figure of an eagle instead of Sickles' likeness.

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Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 164
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/30/2012 6:02:11 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
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Status: offline 		CRAZY!

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Post #: 165
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 4:40:28 AM   
PizzaMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FDRLincoln

I am a Northerner born and bred (and very extremely distantly related to Dan Sickles of all people) ...



Wasn't Sickles the only Union Corps commander not to have a monument on the battlefield?


Sykes (V Corps) to my knowledge doesn't have a statue. Although Sickles doesn't have a statue, he does have a monument:

http://www.gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/Individuals/Sickles.php

< Message edited by PizzaMan -- 3/31/2012 4:43:15 AM >

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Post #: 166
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 4:56:18 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
If we make it, we're going to walk Pickett's Charge. 


I have today been informed by a friend here who toured the battlefield last week with his sons that the official Park Service materials, signs, new visitor's center presentations, etc. now call it "Longstreet's Charge." He said that in a few places it is referred to as "formerly known as Pickett's Charge."

News to me. If we're going that way it should be "Lee's Charge" and be done with the vertical accountability.


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Post #: 167
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 5:22:33 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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Status: offline 		How would McLaws and Hood feel about calling it "Longstreet's" Charge?

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Post #: 168
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 5:26:50 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
If we make it, we're going to walk Pickett's Charge. 


I have today been informed by a friend here who toured the battlefield last week with his sons that the official Park Service materials, signs, new visitor's center presentations, etc. now call it "Longstreet's Charge." He said that in a few places it is referred to as "formerly known as Pickett's Charge."

News to me. If we're going that way it should be "Lee's Charge" and be done with the vertical accountability.


Wouldn't that make it Jefferson Davis' charge?

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Post #: 169
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 9:41:59 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Tinkering with Gettysburg history seems to be en vogue - there is a brand-new game called "Gettysburg: Armored Warfare" where modern weapons are being sent back in time in order to change history (link). Alternate history ok, but this seems a bit exagerated...


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Post #: 170
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 4:35:18 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Wouldn't that make it Jefferson Davis' charge?


I thought of that too, but maybe there's a corollary for telegraphic availability. Going to the Nth degree, maybe it should be "Lincoln's Charge" since the whole war was "his fault."

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Post #: 171
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 3/31/2012 4:36:52 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Tinkering with Gettysburg history seems to be en vogue - there is a brand-new game called "Gettysburg: Armored Warfare" where modern weapons are being sent back in time in order to change history (link). Alternate history ok, but this seems a bit exagerated...


I saw the preview trailer on Steam and I wasn't even interested enough to watch the whole thing. Yuck and so forth.

(Zeppelins?!!!!)


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The Moose

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Post #: 172
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 4/1/2012 12:29:13 AM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
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From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Tinkering with Gettysburg history seems to be en vogue - there is a brand-new game called "Gettysburg: Armored Warfare" where modern weapons are being sent back in time in order to change history (link). Alternate history ok, but this seems a bit exagerated...




Largeslowtarget, how can you possibly expect us to concentrate on your posts with that totally awesome picture of 4 goddesses in your sig?

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Post #: 173
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 4/1/2012 12:42:35 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Tinkering with Gettysburg history seems to be en vogue - there is a brand-new game called "Gettysburg: Armored Warfare" where modern weapons are being sent back in time in order to change history (link). Alternate history ok, but this seems a bit exagerated...


I saw the preview trailer on Steam and I wasn't even interested enough to watch the whole thing. Yuck and so forth.

(Zeppelins?!!!!)


Boo-yah! Steampunk meets Longstreet! With Zeppelins! And exclamation marks! Who needs history when you've got shiny graphics in MMORPG?

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Post #: 174
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 4/1/2012 12:43:56 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Wouldn't that make it Jefferson Davis' charge?


I thought of that too, but maybe there's a corollary for telegraphic availability. Going to the Nth degree, maybe it should be "Lincoln's Charge" since the whole war was "his fault."

No. If you're going down that path of telegraphic availability, perhaps we should blame it on Morse.


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Post #: 175
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 4/24/2012 11:01:48 PM   
tocaff


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Status: offline 		After all of the mention of various games played in the past I now would like to know does anyone have 1st hand knowledge of the following games.

Scourge of War: Gettysburg Norb Development Software, Inc

Gettysburg HPS

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Post #: 176
RE: OT: Blame for the Battle of Gettysburg - 4/25/2012 3:01:17 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		I have Gettysburg HPS.

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Post #: 177
RE: Sumter and the continuation of politics by other means - 4/25/2012 4:30:30 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

CR mentioned Peter Cozzen's works earlier. My esteemed Southern Friend, who put me on to this magnificent author, neglected to mention his recent work on the the Valley Campaign. This book just arrived here and has a nice round 700 pages of reading within it. Cannot wait..

The discussion here has been delightful and quite well toned as well as reasoned.




Just finished this book and it is excellent. Really provides a much better balanced view of Jackson, Shields, Banks, and Fremont. Nice read and highly recommend it.

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Post #: 178
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