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RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 9:42:13 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Denniss, right now the only fighter bombers that will automatically upgrade are the relatively few Yak-1 regiments you receive in 41. Getting all the biplanes, Migs and Laggs into newer models is a huge AP sink, probably close to 200 APs.

So far as the tank battalions go, I think this latest change makes them not worth building at all.


Heresy i know, but I find the Red Air Force composition essentially irrelevant - it is what it is - a huge blunt instrument. For all I care they can kamikaze themselves into the Panzers - is there setting for that ? Just kidding. I leave it on auto upgrade, take what I get and pound the LW and Ost Heer mercilessly. I only expend AP to manually control the upgrade of Transport aircraft - now there is something to think about before I am pilloried.

I am very grateful for the volunteer work to make the technical aircraft abilities as accurate as possible. Thank you Denniss :)

Now, the tank battalion bit is going to force a rethink, especially as my Axis opponent ( our 3rd GC together) is kicking my too agggressive Red ar*e, and I have become lazy in my SU selection.


The point here is that autoupgrade won't work. By mid 1943 at the latest you'll be stuck with literally hundreds of air regiments flying obsolete aircraft in single digits as the pools run dry. They will never transition over to modern airframes unless you spend a fortune to shift them over to the Yak and La upgrade paths.

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RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 9:45:20 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

The Tank Battalion change came around because there were still independant tank battalions fielded by the Soviets during Bagration. Originally, the game started automatically upgrading the Tank Battalions into Regiments in 1942 which meant the Tank Battalions completely disappeared and couldn't be used in any scenarios in 43 & 44 because they would automatically start upgrading. In researching this further, I found no examples of Tank Battalion expanding into their own Tank Regiments.


Upon further review, it appears most Tank Bns were absorbed into or used to form Tank Bdes. However, many Tank Bdes were then later converted to Tank Regts. By having Tank Bns upgrade to Regts was a very clever way of replicating this complicated evolution. Unfourtunately, we are now left with the time consuming and awkward process of building dozens of Tank Bns, disbanding them, building Tank Bdes, disbanding them, building dozens of Tank Regts...

For those of us wanting an historical OOB, it is a perplexing pain in the butt to create one.

If the intention of this change was to allow for the use to a handful of Tank Bns in 1944, why not create a "B" TOE Tank Bn for optional use (ie: scenario design) that doesn't upgrade to a Regt?


Don't build the battalions, imo. It's just not worth the bother now.

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RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 11:03:34 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

The point here is that autoupgrade won't work...


It works if you low on stock. Use your AF and you won't have such problem.

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Post #: 33
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 11:07:17 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

Upon further review, it appears most Tank Bns were absorbed into or used to form Tank Bdes. However, many Tank Bdes were then later converted to Tank Regts. By having Tank Bns upgrade to Regts was a very clever way of replicating this complicated evolution. Unfourtunately, we are now left with the time consuming and awkward process of building dozens of Tank Bns, disbanding them, building Tank Bdes, disbanding them, building dozens of Tank Regts...


I agree. It was good compromise. Big chuck on STBn were converted to the Regiments. Add another TOE(OB) or using locked GD can be a solution here.

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Post #: 34
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 2:01:04 PM   
Denniss

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The point here is that autoupgrade won't work. By mid 1943 at the latest you'll be stuck with literally hundreds of air regiments flying obsolete aircraft in single digits as the pools run dry. They will never transition over to modern airframes unless you spend a fortune to shift them over to the Yak and La upgrade paths.
What may also be misleading is the size upgrade for many/most soviet airgroups, this eats up available pilot/aircraft slots so the engine starts to empty and then disband airgroups flying old equipment.

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Post #: 35
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 4:11:06 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

The point here is that autoupgrade won't work...


It works if you low on stock. Use your AF and you won't have such problem.


I have never seen it happen, Pavel, and I make a point of running to the ground the regiments with I-class fighters in particular.

They linger forever even with pools down to single digits. Only by manually upgrading can you force them off these frames.

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Post #: 36
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 7:04:12 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Don't build the battalions, imo. It's just not worth the bother now.


I'll still build them, I just won't upgrade to the latest beta :P Eventually I'll have to upgrade and at that point I'll just edit the GC scenario data to add a Tank Bn upgrade path for my own games :)

In all seriousness, it is a shame that building a historical Russian army is "just not worth the bother" in regards to many units and formations.

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Post #: 37
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 10:46:29 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		I find the whole air war a disappointment, but that ground has been marched over thousands of times now. The Red Air Force can grow to 5x the size of the Luftwaffe and the only thing that changes is a similar loss of airframes on the Soviet side.
Re: replacements, the situation with the IL-2 is typical, you go from IL-2 to IL-2M to IL-2M3 with replacement aircraft piled up in the pools and few if any older regiments get swapped out for newer models. So the player has to spend APs to do it.

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Post #: 38
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/28/2012 11:28:11 PM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		While checking soviet aircraft data and production I stumbled onto a collection of soviet aircraft factories with locations, post-evacuation locations, aircraft type and number produced.
http://www.jetjournal.net/content/view/3443/88888895/
What I have been able to track down from this list seems valid but it's a lot of data to check.

I'm not really satisfied with those many dead ends in soviet aircraft, this list does suggest some possible upgrade changes.
I-15 could be upgrade to MiG-3, MiG-3 will stay a dead end as factory 1 in Moscow (later Kuybyshev (Samara))
I-16 could switch to LaGG-3 (factory 21 in Gorky)
LaGG-3 should be only produced in Gorky (1660 in 6 months of 1941 out of 2150 total in this timeframe) upgrades to La-5, La-5F, La-5FN and to La-7 although this would require a lot of factories to be (re)moved. Build limits have to be increased to cover the non-inclusion of factory 31 in Taganrog (later Tbilisi) and the removal of the wrong Saratov factory (was building Yaks)

LaGG-3 29th series and 66th series factory will be kept for historical production purposes and upgrades to Yak-3. Taganrog location is wrong as well as it was relocated to Tbilisi by January 1942 as latest, Yak-3 factory in Tbilisi would then be re-used for LaGG-3 29.
The SB-2 dead ends may get upgrades to Pe-2 equivalents.

I still have to work through the Yak hell of production/subtypes

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Post #: 39
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 12:24:15 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I'd like to see an upgrade path for the Mig 3, too. That's 40 odd regiments right there by the end of 1941 (although it takes a while to go through that inventory, the Mig 3 production is fairly high.)

Modest proposal: make airplane upgrades AP free. This is the real problem. Stop making the Soviet player waste APs on this nonsense and waiting for the fickle and unreliable upgrade routines to do the job.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 3/29/2012 12:27:05 AM >

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RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 7:48:20 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

What I have been able to track down from this list seems valid but it's a lot of data to check.


Don't waste your time. I've spent months to translate this data to what we have in game.

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Pavel Zagzin
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Post #: 41
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 7:48:50 AM   
Helpless


Posts: 15793
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Status: offline 		Factory upgrade paths has its meaning and are set up intentionally as they are. It is not related to the swapping out problem.

quote:

Modest proposal: make airplane upgrades AP free. This is the real problem. Stop making the Soviet player waste APs on this nonsense and waiting for the fickle and unreliable upgrade routines to do the job.


I think I've done it free at one point, but it didn't end up in the official code. Personally I see no point in AP cost here as well. You hit by experience drop.



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Pavel Zagzin
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Post #: 42
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 8:01:02 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

I have never seen it happen, Pavel, and I make a point of running to the ground the regiments with I-class fighters in particular.


Can you send me a save Flavio? I could take a look what can be done to improve the swap-out routine.

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Post #: 43
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 10:46:52 AM   
Denniss

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Don't waste your time. I've spent months to translate this data to what we have in game.


No offense but if something does not sound right it should be investigated and fixed if necessary. Especially if you want to re-use this as data base for future games.

Saratov production for LaGG-3 sounds really wrong as this was Yak land, as already said the LaGG-3 29 and newer were built in Tbilisi, the former Taganrog factory had been moved over there, the Yak-3 factory in Tbilisi is superfluous as the LaGG factory there switched to Yak-3.

I'm still trying to find out what happened to factory 135 (Kharkov) after relocation to Molotov/Perm - they must have built something after Su-2 was stopped. Maybe they changed to produce ASh-82 engines as factory 19 nearby was obviously reaching limits.

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Post #: 44
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 10:53:06 AM   
Helpless


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Status: offline 		The data in game is correct.

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Post #: 45
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 3/29/2012 2:21:09 PM   
Farfarer61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

The point here is that autoupgrade won't work...


It works if you low on stock. Use your AF and you won't have such problem.


"using" would imply talent on my part, I will "expend" the air force instead :)

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Post #: 46
RE: War in the East v1.06.05 Public Beta - 4/2/2012 8:34:12 PM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		Suggestions to improve the aircraft autoupgrade function:
1) If an aircraft type is marked as obsolete and has no upgrade path, increase changes for an upgrade upgrade to an aircraft type of the same class.
2) If an aircraft type is marked as obsolete and has an upgrade path but not sufficient aircraft of the new aircraft type on hand, increase chances for an upgrade upgrade to an aircraft type of the same class (although the chance for an upgrade should be lower than in option 1).

With these improvements I could set some old aircraft as obsolete and the upgrade function should do its work.

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Post #: 47
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