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sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 12:53:10 PM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Italians fully stack every hex around Tobruk for over 6 months and do nothing with the troops (so Germans have to land in Tripoli and march). When Germans actually reach the front lines and start pushing the allies back to the Allies towards Alexandra they just invade and capture tobruk directly (17 hexes behind front lines) God knows if the Italians ever actually tried supplying their own troops as they always seem to be worth 1 point.

Then to top it off Germany declares war on USSR in 16 May when half their panzers and air force are still deploying to the Russian Front.

This isn't what I signed up for.
Post #: 1
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 2:39:57 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		vonpaul,
could you please explain it a little bit more?
Who is playing who for start?

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 7:32:10 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah, are humans controlling both the Italians, Germans, and British? Just sounds like some bad play, not that multiplayer is broken. If one of those powers is played by the AI, then look at the reports to see how or if shipping was interdicted on all sides, etc.

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Post #: 3
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 9:51:02 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Basically I agree with Gary, but there are some design considerations here as well Particularly in north africa. Primary is the total lack of control over events (and of course the events themselves are completely off the chart. I like poker but the ToF events are poker with many changing unknown wild cards. They introduce a luck element which is pretty extreme. PARTICULARLY if they are assigned randomly as in PBEM.

The main problem with invasions just about ALWAYS get thru even when enemy has naval superiority. (I had a nearly full strength inf division killed by a GE division landing out of in Alexandria with 4 CV UK CV and lots of ships in the sea zone plus 3 ftrs near (About as likely as driving a Toyota Camry across the Qattara depression ... oops a 200 meter vertical escarpment better shift to low gear) Even an unopposed landing is tricky, an opposed landing VERY dangerous with significant advantage to defenders, with enemy sea superiority SUICIDE. Not So in ToF treats this more like getting off a bus across gutter.

A bone to pick is the map for North Africa. No invasion beaches along the coast. (I have driven much of the coast and it is for all practical purposes one long invasion beach. Add to that the complete non representation of the Qattara Depression (tanks and units just drive right thru this in ToF. I have been there as well

For more North Africa fun how about the 'event' which materializes a 3rd level full strength panzer corps and calls it DAK sure the most powerful unit in the game by far just appears in Africa and of course you can just drive it thru the Qattara Depression(extremely strong even when out of supply although supply thru the Qattara depression hexes is no big deal LOL)


>> From Wikipedia (pretty accurate I can say from personal observation)
The depression has the form of a teardrop with the point of the drop facing east and the broad deep area facing the south west. The northern side of the depression is characterised by steep escarpments up to 280 meters high, marking the edge of the adjacent El Diffa plateau. To the south the depression slopes gently up to the Great Sand Sea.
Within the Depression there are salt marshes, under the northwestern and northern escarpment edges, and extensive dry lakes (dry lake beds) that flood occasionally. The marshes occupy approximately 300 square kilometres (120 sq mi), although wind blown sands are encroaching in some areas. About a quarter of the region is occupied by dry lakes composed of hard crust and sticky mud, and occasionally filled with water.
The depression was formed by salt weathering and wind erosion working together. First the salts crumble the depression floor and then the wind blows away the resulting sands.[4]
Its a joke to see the two fortfied hexes east of El Alamein with a completely open flank to the south NO ONE was going to flank those positions (was Rommel just to stupid to drive around them???)

< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 4/3/2012 9:55:08 PM >

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 10:05:11 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		VonPaul is playing the Germans with all Axis allies being controlled by the AI. I am playing the U.K. and the U.S.A., with all others controlled by the AI. It basically means that you have to put up with some less than stellar AI play by your allies. The way I looked at it though, is that in reality, when fighting a war with allies, you don't have control of what your allies will do, so you have to work around their behavior. Case in point, I believe that he had quite an easy time with France as they don't defend very well, and he was able to catch and eliminate a number of my B.E.F. corps on French soil because of it. Also, the French navy was completely useless to me. The early collapse of France also handed me a -200 PP penalty which was quite a shock and took me a long time to recover from, especially since his subs were running rampant at the time.

I did find the game quite interesting though, and VonPaul was kicking my butt on most fronts except for the Italian Navy. The AI doesn't do a great job at preserving the Italian Navy. His land-based air was making life for my navy quite miserable, such that I couldn't venture too close to where he had any air assets.

The amph landing in the Med was a gamble on my part. I wanted to hit his supply lines, and I gambled that the Italians were holding Tobruk, as the DAK and some other German units were pushing towards Alexandria, and the U.K. has nothing that can stop the DAK unless you can put them out of supply somehow. He had already taken Malta from me.

Maybe allowing units to unload in ports that are already surrounded by units would help. Not sure if this is possible though.

VonPaul, I would be interested in seeing what effect taking Tobruk has had on your supply situation. Are you now completely out of supply or are you still drawing some supply from nearby cities ?

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 10:13:25 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		This game makes a lot of sense for me

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 10:22:17 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		What about the forced declaration of war on the USSR though. Is that a scripted event ?

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 10:29:58 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Ouch Italy played by the AI... that not going to work very well. I would recommend not even trying to let the AI play a major power. Unfortunately the AI breaks down PARTICULARLY in complex situations like landings or situations where supply and extended penetration is an aspect. The Italians are just going to get in your way.

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/3/2012 11:19:27 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		Right. The Italians getting in your way, or not defending as well as the Germans, or breaking and running, etc... Sounds like a dose of reality to me. Having complete control of all aspects of every nation in your alliance sounds like the unrealistic scenario.

Besides, Italy played by the AI on one side, versus France and the USSR played by the AI on the other. Who does that favour ?

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Post #: 9
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 12:04:36 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		It wouldn't work for me, but to each his own...

Italy and France balance out (AI pretty dreadful for both). USSR has by far the best AI (plus it 'cheats' like mad getting way more units than a human) It is clear much more effort went into the USSR AI and it doesn't need to cope with Naval activity or invasions much. The problem with AI mixed into the game is that generates an idiots vrs geniuses situation. Humans with historical hindsight fighting the AI which for France and Italy pretty much stumbles about blindly. France's AI will abandon Maginot Line hexes and Italy will leave Tobruk undefended HUGE blunders, but of course the French did make some pretty huge blunders. IMO The AI in ToF is adequate for beginners to have something to play against and learn the game system, but breaks down against a human with any experience. This is OK most games of this genre have this issue and is not a problem if you have some live opponents.

Bottom line is is the game fun? If you are enjoying the game it is working, and on that score it sounds like it is.

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 12:13:15 AM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Just thought I would add a picture I took for some credibility (Saloum Egypt near the Libyan border) the whole coast looks like this you could come ashore easily anywhere you want... Total child's play compared to landing in Normandy
quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

Basically I agree with Gary, but there are some design considerations here as well Particularly in north africa. Primary is the total lack of control over events (and of course the events themselves are completely off the chart. I like poker but the ToF events are poker with many changing unknown wild cards. They introduce a luck element which is pretty extreme. PARTICULARLY if they are assigned randomly as in PBEM.

The main problem with invasions just about ALWAYS get thru even when enemy has naval superiority. (I had a nearly full strength inf division killed by a GE division landing out of in Alexandria with 4 CV UK CV and lots of ships in the sea zone plus 3 ftrs near (About as likely as driving a Toyota Camry across the Qattara depression ... oops a 200 meter vertical escarpment better shift to low gear) Even an unopposed landing is tricky, an opposed landing VERY dangerous with significant advantage to defenders, with enemy sea superiority SUICIDE. Not So in ToF treats this more like getting off a bus across gutter.

A bone to pick is the map for North Africa. No invasion beaches along the coast. (I have driven much of the coast and it is for all practical purposes one long invasion beach. Add to that the complete non representation of the Qattara Depression (tanks and units just drive right thru this in ToF. I have been there as well

For more North Africa fun how about the 'event' which materializes a 3rd level full strength panzer corps and calls it DAK sure the most powerful unit in the game by far just appears in Africa and of course you can just drive it thru the Qattara Depression(extremely strong even when out of supply although supply thru the Qattara depression hexes is no big deal LOL)


>> From Wikipedia (pretty accurate I can say from personal observation)
The depression has the form of a teardrop with the point of the drop facing east and the broad deep area facing the south west. The northern side of the depression is characterised by steep escarpments up to 280 meters high, marking the edge of the adjacent El Diffa plateau. To the south the depression slopes gently up to the Great Sand Sea.
Within the Depression there are salt marshes, under the northwestern and northern escarpment edges, and extensive dry lakes (dry lake beds) that flood occasionally. The marshes occupy approximately 300 square kilometres (120 sq mi), although wind blown sands are encroaching in some areas. About a quarter of the region is occupied by dry lakes composed of hard crust and sticky mud, and occasionally filled with water.
The depression was formed by salt weathering and wind erosion working together. First the salts crumble the depression floor and then the wind blows away the resulting sands.[4]
Its a joke to see the two fortfied hexes east of El Alamein with a completely open flank to the south NO ONE was going to flank those positions (was Rommel just to stupid to drive around them???)





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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 8:51:34 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		sorry for the late response, busy as hell at work :(

Yeah the real kicker isn't North Africa, but i'll start there. Invading Tobruk is borderline to a 'I win Africa' button, but well done to :). There are no ports in Libya except Tripoli & Tobruk so there is nowhere to ship supply to now. This is in itself pretty stupid, what about ports in the other cities, don't they exist in this reality? And of course Germany doesn't have any ships to sea supply there. Forget about the Italians.

The real kicker is the AI D/W on Russia 4 weeks earlier than historical and way earlier that what what I had planned for. Thus most of my armor is still in transit from Yugo/Hungry. Yugo was alot harder to take then I expected, surely there should be some collapse event for them? Easy to take from Romania/Hungry (in fact Romania captured most of the terrain). A lot harder to take from German controlled positions. That said i might have stuffed this up and not fully understood how capture from friendly hexes works.

To compound the issue, I only just clawed my way out of the -500PP that happened in early 41, I think i climbed back into positive territory in very late April/early May. This means my air force that is still badly worn down from trying to protect the Italians from throwing away N.Africa and is in out of position and in no real shape to contribute to the Russian campaign for a few turns.

Maybe I am being too harsh on the game, but it seems to be constantly screwing me over. I take people's point about AI France & AI Russia being weak compared to humans but both of those seem straightforward fights and the AI seems capable of fighting a ground war. It seems totally unable to fight anything more complicated. AI logic is to protect port = stack every space around the port with weak units and don't move them...ever Fantastic, why are we playing the Grand campaign again...why not just play Barbarossa if that is all the AI can handle?

< Message edited by vonpaul -- 4/4/2012 8:59:31 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 9:36:19 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Who declared the war?
Germany or Russia?

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 10:46:40 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Germany

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Post #: 14
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 11:14:44 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		It is 60% of chances for earlier attack on USSR

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 11:21:51 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		thanks so 60% chance of screwing your plans eh :)

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 6:13:33 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		I don't get this one. If a human is actually playing Germany, why would the game take over and declare war on the USSR ? I could see there being a chance of the USSR declaring war if Germany doesn't garrison appropriately...

Doom ?

< Message edited by johanssb -- 4/4/2012 6:14:04 PM >

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Post #: 17
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 6:16:22 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		Come on VonPaul. Admit it. Before Tobruk you must have been having fun using the DAK to beat the snot out of me...

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Post #: 18
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 6:23:32 PM   
johanssb

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 1/2/2012
Status: offline 		In this case though, Italy didn't leave Tobruk undefended. It was occupied by and surrounded by Italian units. It makes sense in some respects to have the weaker Italians as garrison troops behind the lines while the stronger Germans are fighting on the front line. I guess you can't really do this when you don't have naval superiority though.

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 6:31:11 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Events system is hopelessly broken in PBEM and pretty damaged anyway...

Not too hard to fix IMO Here are three suggestions

1. Get rid of 90% of events (or allow players to disable them from a menu) most of the events are complete nonsense. If you want this game to be perceived as a simulation not a fantasy role playing game dump the wackadoodle events.

Random @$%@# falls from the sky either surprise crap which can knock a country out of the game or aliens drop a UBER PANZER in Africa gifting you the strongest unit in the game (more powerful than any units deployed in USSR REALLY???) Pretty much a Mario Brothers magic mushroom powerup only more random.

Economically crippling triggers buried in xml files with arbitrary unit build limits.

Prize Money for conquest; what is this AD 1500 ransoming captured nobles? GET rid of the dungeon treasure unless your trying to compete with World of Warcraft When you capture a country you get income from the cities pretty much all that needed to simulate economic effects of conquest not enough $ tweak the amount you get from captured cities this random lotto $$ is just plain silly I expect Albert Speer knew about how much production to expect moving forward unless someone bombed some factories, and even then had a pretty good idea of what to expect week to week.

Don't even get me started on the USSR collapse events now appropriately set at 4/1/41 .... April Fools funny but sad... mostly sad.


2. DOCUMENT the events Write up a list how hard can this be put it in a readme file (start by putting descriptive comments in the all the events xml files then convert the comments into a readme file If you MUST have Economically crippling triggers buried in xml files with arbitrary unit build limits. at least let the players know what they are.

3. Grant event control in PBEM to the player. Here is an idea lets let the player controlling Germany DECIDE if its a good idea to attack the USSR. It just might have an impact on game play. Again not to tough to implement delay implementation of events where needed by a turn if a response is needed. Present the choice and if a response is needed present that choice to the other player then implement on the following turn




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< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 4/4/2012 6:46:11 PM >

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 7:46:14 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Document all those events is a tremendous work.

JLPOWELL, where are your roots are? In any of the countries captured by Germans, or maybe also liberated by soviets?
When the Germans came, they took everything with any value, they left no more than one horse for a farm, IIRC one cow and two pigs. Then they came Ruskies, and took everything whats left.

I know those stories directly from the people I met in my life. I know the stories about trains with whole factories moved.
Just read this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold
there is a lot of truth in that (ever heard about gold teeth fr example?)

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen



At last I need to say that most of those values are adapted to keep the gambalance on satisfactory level.

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 8:23:06 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		Doom,

I get that the Germans and Russians (for that the US army was no slouch when it came to looting either) grabbed everything they could get their hands on but from a industrial level economic view local looting does not have a significant effect on large scale military production. Functioning factories; when they are captured and perhaps moved or operated in place significant effort was required (actual investment) bring the capacity back online (this was variable depending on battle damage inflected during conquest) Giant instant cash prizes simply don't make sense. Capture mines or factories and they can be (with effort) be brought back into production. Huge piles of usable resources were not lying around unused waiting to be picked up. Read Albert Spear's book, he new a thing or two about German production as he ran effectively ran the economy and describes it in detail.

Also I note that no prizes for Russia or anyone else when they capture territory so at the least this bad idea is implemented inconsistently.

Grab all the cows pigs you want the immediate LARGE scale military impact is negligible. ToF allows this prize $$ to be IMMEDIATELY turned into tanks and planes (Only if pigs could fly we could determine how many to make a FTR unit) Its just a design crutch 'momentum money' if you will. Most of the events are an attempt (misguided IMO) to force a historical track. This essentially defeats the whole purpose of allowing the players to alter history by their actions. Look at the events and you see over 2000 PP of treasure, this has a HUGE distorting impact on the game.

Economically there is way too much $$ in any case particularly for Germany adding prizes to this detracts from the game. If you lower the money by setting to Hard for example the distorting effect of all that dungeon treasure is magnified.

Economics is pretty easy to handle by placing appropriate resources on the map. Prizes have no place in this kind of simulation the best example is the HUGE and instant prize granted for taking UK. If they just used those resources they could have built MANY units to defend. Looking at history there are few examples (France in WW2 is one but even in that case captured resources took months to assimilate) where the defeated side had not completely utilized ALL available resources. (In ToF the Germany is granted a cash prize and some armor units 'instantly')

< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 4/4/2012 8:26:25 PM >

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 8:39:32 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5321
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline 		JL, I do agree that the Polish peasants doesn't own many flying pigs, however every four horses means one truck less for the German Army.

If you have got good proposition how to put it into pieces, we can see what can/should be done

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RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 8:41:40 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		No amount of gold 'makes' a tank if the existing manufacturing capacity is fully utilized. You can 'buy' resources (iron from Sweden) and there will be an economic benefit from looted gold. BUT the damage to the economy CAUSED by the looting and general mistreatment exceeded the value of what was looted. A (non repressed) cooperative population would have generated economic output VASTLY exceeding anything which could have been looted. in the game a 'harsh' policy generates more 'loot' and a few essentially ineffective partisans (ineffective in the game). The underlying logic for this is IMO flawed as well a harsh policy is LESS effective in generating production from a occupied nation. Slave labor is about as inefficient a system as exists. No small wonder the Germans had one of the LEAST productive economies of any major power during the war.



quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Document all those events is a tremendous work.

JLPOWELL, where are your roots are? In any of the countries captured by Germans, or maybe also liberated by soviets?
When the Germans came, they took everything with any value, they left no more than one horse for a farm, IIRC one cow and two pigs. Then they came Ruskies, and took everything whats left.

I know those stories directly from the people I met in my life. I know the stories about trains with whole factories moved.
Just read this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold
there is a lot of truth in that (ever heard about gold teeth fr example?)

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen



At last I need to say that most of those values are adapted to keep the gambalance on satisfactory level.

quote:

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen


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Post #: 24
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/4/2012 8:43:09 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 411
Joined: 5/5/2011
From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

No amount of gold 'makes' a tank if the existing manufacturing capacity is fully utilized. You can 'buy' resources (iron from Sweden) and there will be an economic benefit from looted gold. BUT the damage to the economy CAUSED by the looting and general mistreatment exceeded the value of what was looted. A (non repressed) cooperative population would have generated economic output VASTLY exceeding anything which could have been looted. in the game a 'harsh' policy generates more 'loot' and a few essentially ineffective partisans (ineffective in the game). The underlying logic for this is IMO flawed as well a harsh policy is LESS effective in generating production from a occupied nation. Slave labor is about as inefficient a system as exists. No small wonder the Germans had one of the LEAST productive (from an efficiency, labor utilization standpoint) economies of any major power during the war.



quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Document all those events is a tremendous work.

JLPOWELL, where are your roots are? In any of the countries captured by Germans, or maybe also liberated by soviets?
When the Germans came, they took everything with any value, they left no more than one horse for a farm, IIRC one cow and two pigs. Then they came Ruskies, and took everything whats left.

I know those stories directly from the people I met in my life. I know the stories about trains with whole factories moved.
Just read this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gold
there is a lot of truth in that (ever heard about gold teeth fr example?)

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen



At last I need to say that most of those values are adapted to keep the gambalance on satisfactory level.

quote:

So compare it with the cost of manufacturing a tank

Also AFAIK price of Sherman was circa 50k USD and price of Panther was about 130k RM (1USD = 2,5RM)

so you can see how many tanks were stolen




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Post #: 25
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/5/2012 12:52:39 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

No amount of gold 'makes' a tank if the existing manufacturing capacity is fully utilized. You can 'buy' resources (iron from Sweden) and there will be an economic benefit from looted gold. BUT the damage to the economy CAUSED by the looting and general mistreatment exceeded the value of what was looted. A (non repressed) cooperative population would have generated economic output VASTLY exceeding anything which could have been looted. in the game a 'harsh' policy generates more 'loot' and a few essentially ineffective partisans (ineffective in the game). The underlying logic for this is IMO flawed as well a harsh policy is LESS effective in generating production from a occupied nation. Slave labor is about as inefficient a system as exists. No small wonder the Germans had one of the LEAST productive economies of any major power during the war.


A series of related points I have been making all along.

German industry was fully committed in 1939 ... there really wasn't a whole lot of slack in the system. They could fiddle around the edges by, say, forex, working expensive capital equipment two shifts a day rather than one (but, as I understand it, working it three shifts a day is counterproductive for several reasons), but that simply runs head on into the resource limitations the Germans faced ... you can't produce fighters with pigs, you need, amongst other things, aluminium, and what the Germans had was already fully committed ... even the allies had issues there (Mosquitos anyone?) ...

The only real way for the Germans to expand things is, as you indicated, steal factories and resources ... other than pigs, of course , from their neighbours.

The Nazi war economy was, basically, a giant looting operation, and, when the loot had been squeezed completely out of the conquered countries, their economy started to go down the gurgler at an every increasing speed, Speer's massaged figures notwithstanding.

See Tooze, "Wages of Destruction" for the details of the situation the Germans faced and how they (failed) to deal with it/solve it.

Looting pigs, cows, and horses really only released manpower from the largely unmechanised German agricultural sector to serve in the armed forces ... in fact, the Germans did their sums in 1939 ... if they mobilised to invade Poland, they would massively reduce their own harvest for 1939, creating a famine in Germany ... unless they stripped the food out of Poland, which is why the death rate in Poland 1939-44 was so high, "Final Solution" notwithstanding.

Further, the initial planning for Barbarossa was to *starve to death* 60% of the Russian population in the planned conquered territories over the next decade ... starting by simply surrounding large urban areas during the advance and preventing ingress/egress to starve the inhabitants to death.

Only military reality intervened ... cities have other uses, as the German military realised even if the Nazi Party planners didn't.

With "economic planning" of this sort the basis for the Nazi Economy, well, it's no real wonder it lost ... decisively.

Phil

_____________________________

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
Post #: 26
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/5/2012 3:59:33 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		1. This wak a doodle is your opinion only. Events control the game to follow history.
If events weren't required, the Paradox would never use them.

PP's are not money, they are Production Points. Why do you insist this game has money. It does not.

There are not too many PP's. Stop complaining about it. If you don't like it, Set the game to hard and play it.

You don't know how to read scripts correctly. Russia does not fall apart on 4/1/1941.

2) The events are self explanatory. If you don't understand them ask, or read up on history.

You were asked which events do you not understand months ago. All you do is complain.
What you don't understand, does not mean others don't understand it.

Did you not ask for Unit limits?

3. Stop complaining. It has already been mentioned PBEM is being worked on. Again you cry like a baby.
Besides that the game decision was to implement it that way. Best you can do is ask to address it. Others also agree and that is why it is being looked at. I myself agree with your dissatisfaction with PBEM.

Do you see me cry every other post?

Being positive and proactive goes allot farther than crying.

There is a translation problem. What is not understood by you may be understood by the developer but lost in translation.

This is not an English game. So please look at it from that perspective and point out what you don't understand so other members can help you or the developers. If not, then perhaps it needs to be explained better.

PS: I know some events you may wish to know more, but the developer may not want to reveal details to the player.


< Message edited by Razz -- 4/5/2012 4:07:47 AM >

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 27
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/5/2012 4:02:42 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		This has gotten a little offtopic. Back on-topic...to my game :)

Firstly let me say the potential of the multiplayer game is severely restricted with the way events have been implemented. If you don't mind going along for a ride and just doing the best you can and pretend your like Kietel who is blindly following whatever your leader tells you, then you will be in the right frame of mind for this game. If you want to actually fight WW2 with control over your Nation, you will be constantly annoyed. It is most definitively not a grand strategy game as you have little influence over the strategy (As opposed to tactics). Aka You will fight a war in Russia so god help you if you wanted invade England in 41 instead.

Secondly, the AI is hopeless at anything but a land war. In my present game, France did defend competently and never abandoned the Maginot like I have heard elsewhere. Also, the BEF did mostly escape even though they were defending near the Maginot instead of the north (i think i killed like 3 units but beat them all up a bit). However DO NOT play this game as the Italians as the AI (against a Human British).IMO There is NOTHING you can do to stop them dominating the Mederterain by early 41. I heavily committed the German airforce (thus why mid-May Soviet invasion hurts so much) in a vain attempt to try to save them and it failed miserably. In principle a incompetent Italians would be great, however it is far too easy for the human British to invade the only 2 ports in Libya. Now that this trick is out of the bag North Africa is done in 2 attacks. Why would you bother doing anything else? I haven't continued the game but I'd be very interested to hear an opposing view here. I might be wrong and maybe unsupplied germans can clear the beachhead? Either way there will be no pressure on the Brits as if you moved to attack into Eygpt, they hit the WIN button. I'm happy to hear opposing views but if you only way to supply North Africa relies on 2 ports that WILL always be defended by poor (most probably out of supply) italians whatever you put into North Africa will be out of supply. I wonder if strong non-moveable units should be place into the port locations to fix this in the short term? (similiar to what happens in Germany)

And was i having fun with the DAK before my only supply port was liberated by 6 point Britsh unit? It barely reached the front and things were just starting to get interesting and shaping up to be a stand up fight near El-Alamein. We'll never know now.

Like i said in previous posts, if it wasn't for the Soviet situation i would probably would have just posted a crap can we fix this post. But this isn't anything like the SP game, it just shares the same game mechanics :(

(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 28
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/5/2012 4:28:54 AM   
Razz1


Posts: 2560
Joined: 10/21/2007
From: CaLiForNia
Status: offline 		I have a few posts with pictures where the Italians are kicking Ass in Africa. There is nothing wrong with the AI.

This is the result of patch 1.01 and changing supply.

The constriction of supply is preventing the Italians from moving forward.

The restriction of supply is so bad that units can never move their full number of hexes unless they start in a city with supply ratio of 30 or in the hex next to it.

There are several reports where the German player can only move along a rail line do to supply constraints. So how do you expect to move where you want, and encircle the enemy when the restrictions are too tight? If you can not do it... How do you expect the AI to do it?

This is why the supply constraints have been relieved in the Third Reich Mod. In fact they could even be tweaked some more.

The problem is less supply should equal less effectiveness not massive reduction in movement. True, there may be some reduction in movement but NOT massive amounts.

Wait until you hit weather conditions. Rain, snow, mud, and you are completely crippled and can only move one hex out of 3 or one hex out of 4 or one hex out of 6 or more.

I'm surprised Vonpaul quit the game just because his opponent out witted him and captured a supply point.

That condition has been fixed in the Third Reich Mod along with Malta and a few other key points.

I'm not disagreeing that MP broke. I pointed that out along time ago that others would agree with me on that point.

I'm glad everyone agrees on that point because it is being addressed. :)

< Message edited by Razz -- 4/5/2012 4:29:51 AM >

(in reply to vonpaul)
Post #: 29
RE: sorry multiplayer in this game is busted - 4/5/2012 4:54:59 AM   
vonpaul


Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		maybe i'm a sore loser, maybe you can't read posts, maybe your trolling, who knows what goes on in peoples minds. Thanks though.

(in reply to Razz1)
Post #: 30
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