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- 11/25/2002 4:12:54 AM

Kraut

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I just found a nice resource:

NAVAL, AVIATION AND MILITARY HISTORY
http://www.chuckhawks.com/index3.naval_military_history.htm

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Post #: 31

- 11/25/2002 4:14:50 AM

Kraut

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And another one:

http://www.periscope1.com/demo/weapons/ships/cruisers/

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Post #: 32

- 11/25/2002 4:45:12 AM

CCB

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraut
[B]The Arizona even served into the 80s.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think you meant another ship didn't you? Although the [I]Arizona[/I] is still listed on the books as an active ship, it hasn't been anywhere since Dec. 7, 1941.

The Argentinian battleship you keep making reference to ([I]Belgrado[/I] ?) was built by the US and served in the US Navy during WW2 as a heavy cruiser, named the USS [I]Phoenix[/I] (as in the city of Phoenix, Arizona). :)

The USS [I]Arizona[/I]'s two aft turrets were removed during the salvage operation and rebuilt as shore batteries in Hawii. They were test fired the last day of the Pacific war.

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Post #: 33

- 11/25/2002 4:53:56 AM

Kraut

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by CCB
[B]

I think you meant another ship didn't you? Although the [I]Arizona[/I] is still listed on the books as an active ship, it hasn't been anywhere since Dec. 7, 1941.

The Argentinian battleship you keep making reference to ([I]Belgrado[/I] ?) was built by the US and served in the US Navy during WW2 as a heavy cruiser, named the USS [I]Phoenix[/I] (as in the city of Phoenix, Arizona). :)

The USS [I]Arizona[/I]'s two aft turrets were removed during the salvage operation and rebuilt as shore batteries in Hawii. They were test fired the last day of the Pacific war. [/B][/QUOTE]

Alright then, which ship fired on the positions of Islamic terror�sts in Lebanon in the 80s?

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Post #: 34

- 11/25/2002 4:55:56 AM

Kraut

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Thanks for the info, btw. :)

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Post #: 35

- 11/25/2002 4:57:57 AM

Kraut

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Found it:

A mist swirled close to the wet, warped deck of the battleship USS New Jersey as the sun evaporated a cool morning rain.

http://www.southjerseynews.com/battleship/m043001d.htm

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Post #: 36

- 11/25/2002 5:53:54 AM

Splinterhead

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British battlecruisers destroyed Admiral von Spee's squadron near the Falkland Islands in 1914, perhaps the only time they were used as intended. They were as fast enough to chase down and destroy the German cruisers. Battleships were too slow.

Also, only British batttlecruisers tended to blow up. The German battlecruisers saw as much fighting and, although damaged, they all survived Jutland.

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Post #: 37

- 11/25/2002 6:11:48 AM

Splinterhead

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by CCB
[B]

....The Argentinian battleship you keep making reference to ([I]Belgrado[/I] ?) was built by the US and served in the US Navy during WW2 as a heavy cruiser, named the USS [I]Phoenix[/I] (as in the city of Phoenix, Arizona). :)....

[/B][/QUOTE]

Phoenix was a Brooklyn class light cruiser (6-inch guns), not a heavy cruiser (8-inch guns).

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Post #: 38

- 11/25/2002 11:45:19 PM

rockymtndoc

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The reason for the bad designs was the nature of naval warfare itself. All ship-to-ship exchanges had previously been relatively flat tajectory broadsides, and the ships were extremely well armored to withstand that. Even in WWII, the powerful primary batteries of capital ships, coupled with optical range finding and fire control, meant relatively flat trajectories hitting mainly the side armor. Long distance gunnery, involving high-arc fire, was relatively new on the scene and the naval designers had failed to take that factor well enough into account when designing.

There is also the matter of a ship's center of gravity. To prevent a battleship or cruiser from being too top heavy, and there is already an enormous weight of guns and armor above decks, you have to keep the weight down. One way was to reduce the overhead armor, which made sense in light of not appreciating what plunging fire would do.

This lack of understanding became critical during WWII with the advent of dive-bombers. The USS Arizona, heavily armored as she was, was sunk by a single relatively small bomb that penetrated her deck armor and detonated her forward magazine. Does this sound familar?

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Post #: 39

Re: Hood - 11/26/2002 3:23:26 AM

CCB

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waylander
[B]Regardless of who did the dirty deed, both got there come-uppance, Bismark shortly after, and Eugen in Atom bomb tests after the war.[/B][/QUOTE]

[I]Prinz Eugen[/I] survived two atomic bomb tests - one airburst, the other an underwater denotation. Since [I]Eugen[/I] was a target ship, it didn't have anything like a crew aboard. Slight damage received from the tests, damage that would have been quickly repaired by a crew, lead to the ship capsizing in a shallow lagoon. [I]Eugen[/I] is still there to this day, the ship's underside of the stern above water, much like the [I]Oklahoma[/I]'s after Dec. 7. The US Navy cut off one of the propellers and sent it to the West German government in Bonn.

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Post #: 40

- 11/27/2002 11:28:37 PM

rockymtndoc

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A propellor? Sounds like ritual circumcision to me.:D

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Post #: 41

- 11/28/2002 6:49:17 AM

CCB

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The Brits took the two 8" guns out of the first turret before turning the [I]Eugen[/I] over to us.

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Post #: 42

- 11/29/2002 9:19:46 AM

showboat1

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New Jersey fired on Lebanon as did, I think, Iowa.

The General Belgrano was sunk in the Falklands War by Submarine Attack.

It is doubtful that anyone on the Prinz Eugen would have escaped serious injury or death, but the survival of the PE bore testimony to good old fashioned German engineering.

And not all of the German battlecruisers survived Jutland. The Derfflinger was sunk and Seydlitz returned to port with decks awash. The German ships were better built though because their priorities were different. The German ships were not designed to spend much time at sea so they did not have much in the way of crew accomodations or berthings. The weight saved allowed the Germans to put more armor into their designs.

The Arizona was not destroyed by a small bomb from a dive bomber. She was destroyed by high level bombers dropping converted 15 and 16 inch armor piercing projectiles, one of which penetrated into her magazine storing powder charges for her aircraft catapults which detonated. The explosion then in turn set off her forward main magazine, destroying the ship.

The Americans took another two 8 inchers off of PE for study. My grandfather was asked to sail with the PE to Bikini Atoll, but he declined as he would have had to re-up for another 2 years.

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Post #: 43

- 11/29/2002 9:24:14 AM

showboat1

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[url]www.history.navy.mil[/url]

This is a good one too. LOTS of pictures.

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Post #: 44

- 11/29/2002 11:50:14 AM

rockymtndoc

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Thank you, showboat. That was enlightening.

Too bad your father wopuld have had to re-up - his story afterwards would have been even more interesting.

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Post #: 45

More on Prince Eugen - 11/29/2002 12:58:42 PM

chief

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Adding to showboats' account of non-creature comforts aboard the PE (and some other German ships) the PE had no bulkhead hatches (fore or aft, port to starboard) in order for a crewmen to get from one side of the ship to the other (below the main deck) he had to climb UP to the main deck and cross to the side he wanted and go down to the level desired. A similiar experience was required when going fore to aft and vice versa. This structural inovation prevented adjacent compartments to flood as easily as US, UK etc ships. Even with watertight doors on our vessels they could warp and leak through the bulkhead accesses (doors to Army and Marines). By having hatches only in the top of compartments, the Germans, could climb up and hopefully beat the water to the top of the compartment and seal the hatch(s).
It took them longer to get to battle stations in an emergency but the system worked. I believe the Graf Spee was configure that way also.
PS: got to see the Prince Eugen, from the air, in 1957 during one of the tests, belly up on an atoll near Eniwetok. Its a sad shame to see a ship of any nationality in that position. Just a little more info for the fodder mill.:) :cool:

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Post #: 46

- 11/29/2002 11:07:17 PM

showboat1

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rockymtndoc
[B]Thank you, showboat. That was enlightening.

Too bad your father wopuld have had to re-up - his story afterwards would have been even more interesting. [/B][/QUOTE]

After all that radiation exposure I might not have been around to make these posts.

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Post #: 47

- 11/29/2002 11:13:31 PM

showboat1

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I wish someone would go down and locate the rest of the IJN carriers off of Midway. I heard a company found some debris off of the Kaga but never heard anything else about it. Info anyone?

Be nice if someone would locate the Lexington down in the Coral Sea.

Wasn't someone leading an expedition to recover debris from the Yamato a few years back?

The US has done the best at preserving historic ships, particularly from the World War II generation. I think it just shows our nature to hate to throw anything away.

Not alot left over from the World War I generation though, the Texas and that's about it.

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Post #: 48

- 11/29/2002 11:31:59 PM

rockymtndoc

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YAMATO was located, dived on and mapped many years ago.

When Ballard found TITANIC, I wrote him and suggested he try some day to locate the SHINANO, Japan's super carrier built on a YAMATO class hull. It fits all his criteria, huge, 'unsinkable', sunk on it's maiden voyage and sunk under circumstances that shouldn't have managed to do so. Sucker is pretty deep, though. However, that gold hunter located and surveyed a Japanese sub in something like 19,000 feet of water, so it gets more and more possible each day.

Also be interesting to see the remains of the third ship of that class, the MUSHASHI.

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Post #: 49

- 11/29/2002 11:32:21 PM

CCB

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by showboat1
[B]Wasn't someone leading an expedition to recover debris from the Yamato a few years back?[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, the Japanese found the [I]Yamato[/I] and made several exploratory dives on the wreck. Unfortunately timing wasn't on their side. They found the ship a scant week before Ballard found the Titanic.

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Post #: 50

- 11/29/2002 11:33:39 PM

rockymtndoc

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I knew Ballard didn't find it. There was no National Geographic special and no coffee table book for sale.:D

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Post #: 51

- 11/30/2002 9:46:39 AM

Sgt.Striker

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Anyone found Prince of Wales and Repulse?

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Post #: 52

- 12/3/2002 12:39:38 AM

jnier

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraut
[B]

Aegis is in size between a destroyer and a cruiser, a weapons plattform with very advanced sensor arrays.

[/B][/QUOTE]

The Cruiser versus destroyer designation in the USN has always confused me.

The Ticonderoga class CGN and Spruance class DDs are identical in size (both being similar to a WW2 cruisers). Why is one classified as a destroyer and one a cruiser?

In fact, I don't think there is any currently active major US surface warship has dimensions similar to a ww2 destroyer.

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Post #: 53

- 12/3/2002 1:02:29 AM

Kraut

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The Spruance class is fitted for launching cruise missiles, so it's designation as a cruised could be justified as it being similar to an oldfashioned missile cruiser.

Warships are by now all weapons-plattforms anyway, so differences in size are less important than before, except with carriers.

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Post #: 54

- 12/3/2002 10:19:06 PM

showboat1

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The Spruance tincans are destroyers because their primary role was, and I believe still is, anti-submarine. Since they are sub hunters they are destroyers. Aegis cruisers are "long shooters" designed to screen carriers against missile attacks from aircraft or surface ships, hence cruisers. However, what about the Arleigh Burke class which can fulfill both roles in a somewhat diminished capacity? I know they are classed as guided missile destroyers, DDG's, but maybe the title of destroying-cruiser, DDCG, would be more appropriate. ;)

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Post #: 55

- 12/3/2002 10:21:32 PM

Kraut

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by showboat1
[B]The Spruance tincans are destroyers because their primary role was, and I believe still is, anti-submarine. Since they are sub hunters they are destroyers. Aegis cruisers are "long shooters" designed to screen carriers against missile attacks from aircraft or surface ships, hence cruisers. However, what about the Arleigh Burke class which can fulfill both roles in a somewhat diminished capacity? I know they are classed as guided missile destroyers, DDG's, but maybe the title of destroying-cruiser, DDCG, would be more appropriate. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

These classifications really are arbitrary.

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Post #: 56

- 12/3/2002 11:54:39 PM

showboat1

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And it used to be so simple, just check out the size of the main battery and thickness of the armor. Back in the good old days.

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Post #: 57

- 12/4/2002 5:14:44 AM

showboat1

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Does anyone have any good sites or info on the Yamato recovery effort. Info is scant and I haven't found much on the subject. Found this one site and that is it.

http://www.tulloch.net/work/rmstitanic/yamato/index.htm

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Post #: 58

- 12/4/2002 7:08:09 AM

CCB

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At one time I did find pics of a model of the wreck of the Yamato but have since lost the link and can no longer find it.

A Google search shows a lot (and I mean a lot!) of StarBlazer websites. Though it was a good anima series, I would rather see pics of the Yamato!

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Post #: 59

Prince of Wales - 12/4/2002 8:33:12 PM

Noodleboy

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sgt.Striker
[B]Anyone found Prince of Wales and Repulse? [/B][/QUOTE]

I think they've both but only the Prince of Wales' Bell has been returned to the Admiralty. There's quite a bit of concern about thieving b'stds and scavengers looting from these War Graves.

At the time of the Falklands, one of my mates (told me this years later) was trained up on the old Kelly Class Destroyers they had mothballed because the RN were losing so many ships. I wonder how the Russians viewed that?

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Post #: 60