RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 1:44:46 AM

Q-Ball

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I probably am among the minority, but I like the CS units as-is. They are very useful running with the CVs.

-They provide a cruiser's worth of AA, thereby saving a CA for surface duties
-They provide all the search planes you need; this allows you to use 100% of the VALS/KATES on Nav Attack (unlike USN CVs, which have to have 10% or so on Nav Search). Thus, they effectively increase your attack capability
-Later on, you can put some Zero Float Planes on them, and add to fighter CAP

I personally don't like to convert all of them; takes them off the board for too long. (MIZUHO is one that's worth converting, since she is too slow, and actually gains some speed on conversion)

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 7:51:14 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Depends on whether Kaga is part of the KB. If she is then 16 hexes max, otherwise 18 hexes max (both at full speed). At normal speed probably in the region of 11 or 12.

at normal speed I would say not more than 9-10 hexes as their mission speed (rounded) is four hexes with an additional hex now and then in the phases.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 8:22:38 AM

hkbhsi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I probably am among the minority, but I like the CS units as-is. They are very useful running with the CVs.

-They provide a cruiser's worth of AA, thereby saving a CA for surface duties
-They provide all the search planes you need; this allows you to use 100% of the VALS/KATES on Nav Attack (unlike USN CVs, which have to have 10% or so on Nav Search). Thus, they effectively increase your attack capability
-Later on, you can put some Zero Float Planes on them, and add to fighter CAP

I personally don't like to convert all of them; takes them off the board for too long. (MIZUHO is one that's worth converting, since she is too slow, and actually gains some speed on conversion)

I totally agree with you, the job they do as CS is priceless for all the reasons you stated.

If you plan to convert them you'll be without one of your best assets for the crucial part of the war, while when they are finally refitted as CVLs the allies are more powerful than the Empire regardless.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 2:36:05 PM

Canoerebel

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2/17/42

West Coast: Steve tries for the ambush we discussed in here yesterday. His CS TF retired and in its place is the KB, which sprinted SE, probably at regular speed. His Vals flew an unsuccessful missions against DD Russell, which I had detached from a separate ASW TF to serve as a flanking scout. My carriers were 17 hexes to the south of the IJN carriers and undetected, as best I can tell. Obviously, Steve has oilers somewhere to the north, but my carriers are out of position to try for them. The KB is smack in the way. So my carriers will retire to the south with several DDs screening well to their north.

NoPac: Steve flies his first meaningful raid. Zeroes from Alliford Bay fly a sweep mission over Vancouver and take the worst of things, tanngling with roughly 60 Kittyhawks, Warhawks and P-39s. Recon shows Alliford Bay suddenly has 80+ strike aircraft, so it seems that Steve is about ready to begin his bombing campaign. He has a multitude of targets. I can't cover them all, but I think he's going to have a tough time accomplishing anything at the distances he is flying.

Everywhere Else: Nothing happened today worth updating about.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 2:51:54 PM

Canoerebel

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That's odd. I updated the AAR and the update is on the screen, but it didn't "bump up" my AAR to the top of the list. It's still down where it was before I updated. That's a new one. :)

Edited to Add: But this update did bump it to the top. An anomaly that doesn't matter one whit, but I couldn't help but post about it as it helps me try to stay ahead of GreyJoy....

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/18/2012 2:53:31 PM >

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 5:00:23 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's odd. I updated the AAR and the update is on the screen, but it didn't "bump up" my AAR to the top of the list. It's still down where it was before I updated. That's a new one. :)

Edited to Add: But this update did bump it to the top. An anomaly that doesn't matter one whit, but I couldn't help but post about it as it helps me try to stay ahead of GreyJoy....

(so does this one!)

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 5:52:51 PM

Lecivius

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These boards are acting wonky (it's a technical term) over the last few days.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 6:11:08 PM

Canoerebel

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2/18/42

West Coast: The KB continues to slide south (she's now far to the east of the Hawaian Islands and far southwest of San Diego). Her Vals missed DD Russell again. Three American DDs are trying to keep tabs on the KB while my own carriers (plus a replenishment TF) remain out of harm's way further down the map. To the west, I had three damaged BBs in separate TFs that were making their way from Pearl towards the Canal Zone. They're very far to the southwest of the KB, but there is some danger here, so I'm trying to watch over everything carefully. To this point, though, the KB raid is probably accomplishing nothing except frustrating Steve.

NoPac: No Japan air raids this time. Anchorage holds, a siege that is becoming epic in its scope and duration.

Oz: I got a Coast Watcher report that CV Zuikaku is in port at Milne Bay. This is highly unlikley since Milne is a dot hex just occupied by Japan. Everything looks good right now in SoPac and in Oz. There is the incursion by a host of Japanese armor spreading south and east out of the Darwin vicinity, but nothing else of import. Three of the seven USAAF squadrons from USA have arrived at Adelaide.

DEI: IJ troops have arrived at Soerabaja, but not in large enough numbers to take the base quite yet.

Burma: The Allies are pulling the forward garrisons back to Meiktile in preparation for a retirement to Mandalay and then an effort to overwhelm the IJ force at Schwebo.

China: Lots of IJA units moving to the far north and west. This includes at least two divisions moving on the complex of bases in the mountains/desert west of Sian. I think I have sufficient troops to meet this threat. Supply should be a problem for Japanese units operating this far from home.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/18/2012 6:12:12 PM >

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 6:18:57 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's odd. I updated the AAR and the update is on the screen, but it didn't "bump up" my AAR to the top of the list. It's still down where it was before I updated. That's a new one. :)

Edited to Add: But this update did bump it to the top. An anomaly that doesn't matter one whit, but I couldn't help but post about it as it helps me try to stay ahead of GreyJoy....

You're still ahead my friend.... for now

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 8:46:11 PM

Canoerebel

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2/19/42

West Coast: No IJ aircraft raids and the KB vanishes, presumably retiring to the north into the vastness between Hawai and California. One of my damaged BB TFs is having problems with damage control - Oklahoma's FLT is up to 75. She'll return to Pearl Harbor.

China: It won't be too long before STeve's "wing play" in China comes into play. Chinese and Japanese units will soon be in contact in the NW and the crazy-far NW. I'm pretty surprised he would commit division level units way, way, way out here. It's a long way home and fighting defenders on good defensive terrain while you're low on supply seems like a good way to fritter away divisions at a time when you could be using them elsewhere.

Elsewhere: The Allies continue to work on defensive (and mildly offensive) operations.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 8:54:02 PM

Encircled

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So he's still hanging around?

I'm assuming he can conquer the DEI under the umbrella of LBA, and the amphib bonus ends in April (is that start of, or end of?).

If he's coming for anywhere outside CONUS, then he's got to do it soon surely?

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 9:09:10 PM

Canoerebel

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Yes, the clock is ticking.

He can probably handle Oz (and New Zealand) without the invasion bonus since both have many bases that will be lightly garrisoned.

India is another proposition altogether. To come for India in a sensible way, IMO, he's got to also take Port Blair, Diego Garcia and probably Addu Atoll and Socatra. Under most circumstances these would be taken before invading India proper, or at least some of them, to clear an LOC. Invading defended islands wihtout the invasion bonus would be a recipe for more problems for Steve. So he would have to start moving fast.

I think Steve is taking too long to effectively invade India or North America (and event o effectively engage in a strat warfare cmpaign). His moves are much slower than they should have been and missed chances to hit the Allies when they were most vulnerable.

But Steve still has plenty of time and the capabiilty to deal with China and, if he wishes, Oz. So that's where my money is.

Oh, and abuot Hawaii. Obviously he'd need the invasion bonus to take on Pearl Harbor.

My overall impression is that Steve is moving too slowly.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 9:16:53 PM

GreyJoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Yes, the clock is ticking.

My overall impression is that Steve is moving too slowly.

yup...too slow...he cannot go for India without taking China first imho

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/18/2012 9:24:46 PM

Canoerebel

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China isn't a prerequisite to move on India, at least if the Allied player dallies a bit in preparing for the invasion (as I did in my game vs. Q-Ball).

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/19/2012 4:22:17 AM

Cribtop

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Well, I'll admit I was wrong as he tried for the ambush. Are you sure he was as far away as you thought he was? Or was it a case of him moving mission speed and ending at 7 hexes from your picket, which would have been 7 more hexes from your CVs had you taken the bait? Just curious.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 7/19/2012 4:47:16 AM >

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/19/2012 4:29:47 AM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

China isn't a prerequisite to move on India, at least if the Allied player dallies a bit in preparing for the invasion (as I did in my game vs. Q-Ball).

Didn't know you dallied......now I know.

India is a very tough nut, but there are a couple options I think to a full-scale invasion.

One is cutting-off the NE corner (as the compass goes, though really the area between Calcutta and Ledo). This will also isolate Burma if the British are still there, which is useful, and will temporarily occupy industry. It's pretty takeable once you are ashore; the beginning troops there are really terrible.

Another is taking Ceylon; this will net a bunch of points as the units on it will surrender eventually, and clearing the British out of their base is useful. It's untenable in the long-run; once the Allies get 4Es, they can bomb it so bad from the mainland you'll have to just leave.

Either way, you can beat-up the British/Indians a bit, and keep them back for awhile anyway.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/19/2012 5:32:48 AM

CaptBeefheart

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"I got a Coast Watcher report that CV Zuikaku is in port at Milne Bay."

I sometimes wonder if those coastwatchers have been partaking a bit much in local psychotropics.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/19/2012 4:19:57 PM

Canoerebel

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2/20/42 and 2/21/42

Carriers: The KB slides north, ending up just seven or eight hexes west of LA. The IJN CS TF is to the NW, closer to San Fran. Sar and York are trailling behind, moving slowly north, very far south of San Diego. The carrier fighters are my "strategic reserve" for West Coast, right now, so I'll keep them not too far from base.

West Coast: A pretty tought IJ sweep at Vancouver. My Air Loss table shows the Japanese lost 16 Zeros (13 a-2-a) while the Allies lost a total of 35 P-39, P-40E and Kittyhawks (26 a-2-a). I had two pilots on the day KIA. This was a rather sobering performance for the Allies, but it is necessary for the Allies to put up a fight, both to gain the necessary experience to wage war and to bleed the Japanese under the most favorable circumstances. Japan is flying at long range. I still think it will be very tough for Steve to maintain a campaign from Alliford Bay. I'm tyring to suppress the base building at Walla Walla, but thus far my bombers haven't flown a single mission. Most of the squadrons are devoted to flying supply to Coal Harbor, which is of utmost importance (that base would be very beneficial to Steve if he could claim it). A few days ago, I stripped from Pearl Harbor the remaining fighters. leaving behind only a single P-26a and a small detachment of Buffaloes that just flew in from Midway. The rest of the fighters are enroute to San Diego aboard ship.

Oz: Japan has rolled up NW Oz, taking Darwin a few days ago.

DEI: Steve landed an entire IJA division (33rd) at Koepang in one phase of unloading! That's pretty impressive. It'll be interesting to see if 450 AV can handle the 250 AV that the Allies have. With forts, jungle and decent supply, I hope the Allies will hold for awhile and tie down this division.

IJ Divisions: I haven't yet accounted for the divsiions recently at Clark Field, but it's interesting to find that Steve has committed 2nd at Anchroage and 33rd at Koepang. I just don't think he would tie up good divisions if India was his objective, which reinforces my hunch in that regard. I'm still thinking Oz and China are Steve's objectives.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/19/2012 6:25:34 PM

crsutton

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It depends of the Allied players preparation but what can be done in India in March or April of 42 almost becomes impossible in May or June. However, like QBall says Celyon can be taken and I think it can even be taken at a later date if the Japanese player uses a lot of force. Baring a shot at autovictory I think taking Celyon is a better option vs a good Allied player. You will kill lots of troops and the Brits and Indians rebuild at a pitifully slow rate and I think it is worth a sizeable sacrifical garrison as the Allies will "need" to take it back. Yes, the 4Es will pound it but they will be pounding somewhere and I would prefer they were pounding as far away from Japan as possible. Plus the repair shipyard is the only thing the Allies have in that theater.

A stout garrison loaded up with supplies will hold Celyon for a long time because the Allies just do not get and suitable ships in that theater for a counter invasion. I think it may be worth 100,000 men to hold Celyon well into 1943. Of course a cautious Japanese player can take it, do the damage and then withdraw at a safe time. This works as well.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/19/2012 9:24:29 PM

Canoerebel

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2/22/42 and 2/23/42

KB: KB remains parked off the southwestern coast and commits the first IJ strategic bombing raid of the war (and the first strat points I've ever los in an AE game). Kates in big numbers hit the oil facilitiy at Bakersfield, scoring 30 hits, which reduced production by 92 units, which resulted in 192 points (I'm not sure how the math works). I'm not coing to CAP Bakersfield yet - my CAP will remain at San Fran and LA. Meanwhile, the American carriers continue steaming north, wondering how the KB is doing for sorties right now. Steve can't stick around indefinately.

West Coast: Another big sweep from Alliford Bay, this one targeting Tacoma. The Allied fighters from Seattle responded and did pretty well.

NoPac: Anchorage finally succumbed.

SWPac: The Japanese have taken Merauke and may be moving on Port Moresby.

DEI: 33rd Div. fails to take Koepang via deliberate attack, but drops forts by one and gets a 1:1 attack. So the Dutch may not be up to holding out long term.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 11:02:20 AM

HansBolter

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Don't forget that you have sources of fuel at the East Coast and Britain. I set up CS convoys for fuel from both those bases to Cristobal. Losing Oil to IJN raids on the West Coast is not gonna run you dry. In fact you can supply as much fuel as you need to Auckland, Sydney and SoPac entirely from Cristobal.

PJH is wasting his time on the West Coast and it can't be anything more than a distraction.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 12:15:48 PM

Canoerebel

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I'm not really worried about the oil. Really I'm not worried about any industry on the West Coast, with one exception, though I admit my lack of worry may be due to ignorance of what I'm facing. I think I can repair whatever damage he does and draw what I need from East Coast, etc. (I already have a big network of supply and fuel convoys running from East Coast to Capetown.)

The one exception is aircraft factories. That's the one thing I don't want to see damaged right now - at least in a way that would affect production of the planes I need the most.

However, Steve can rack up tremendous Victory Points by Strat Bombing (Alfred posted on this at length near the start of the AAR).

On the other hand, Steve probably can't rack them up under the current conditions. He can't efficiently attack using only LBA from Alliford Bay, due to the distance and my ability to CAP in big numbers my Washington bases. So he has to use the KB stationed south to force me to divide my air forces. But it obviously costs him fuel and opportunities to park the KB here. (I can act further forward around Oz and in the Indian Ocean as long as the KB is far away; anothe strategy I can consider is bringing in my carriers to contest the KB, parking close to LA to benefit from massed LRCAP, though that's a risky proposition).

There will be lots of thinking going on for both of us in the coming weeks.

It's fun to be involved in a game like this.

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 3:24:41 PM

Lomri

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I'm no where near qualified to make this speculation. But I wonder if attritting your air frames up north might eventually tempt you to draw down your CAP over your aircraft factories to the point that KB could be used to hit them. I imagine PJH isn't going to bet the bank on this ONE thing, but it could be something he is keeping an eye on. Are you getting any Glen sightings over your southern cities?

I'm not looking at a map and I've never really bothered to look at where oil is generated in the States, but it seems like assuming you'll be fine on oil/fuel might be a bad idea if PJH has done his homework. I could be way off base here of course, the East Coast hex might generate plenty (seems to in my game!).

< Message edited by Lomri -- 7/20/2012 4:17:37 PM >

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 4:04:21 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

KB: KB remains parked off the southwestern coast and commits the first IJ strategic bombing raid of the war (and the first strat points I've ever los in an AE game). Kates in big numbers hit the oil facilitiy at Bakersfield, scoring 30 hits, which reduced production by 92 units, which resulted in 192 points (I'm not sure how the math works)...

Each damaged centre yields 2 strategic VPs. Destroying an undamaged centre yields 20 strategic VPs. Destroying an already damaged centre yields 18 strategic VPs.

Alfred

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 4:14:36 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm not really worried about the oil.� Really I'm not worried about any industry on the West Coast, with one exception, though I admit�my lack of worry may be due to ignorance of what I'm facing.� I think I can repair whatever damage he does and draw what I need from�East Coast, etc.� (I already have a big network of supply and fuel convoys running from East�Coast to Capetown.)�

The one exception is aircraft factories.� That's the one thing I don't want to see damaged right now - at least in a way that would affect production of the planes I need the most.

However, Steve can rack up tremendous Victory Points by Strat Bombing (Alfred posted on this at length near the start of the AAR).

On the other hand, Steve probably can't rack them up under the current conditions.� He can't efficiently attack using only LBA from Alliford Bay, due to the distance and my ability to CAP in big numbers my Washington bases.� So he has to use the KB stationed south to force me to divide my air forces.� But it obviously costs him fuel and opportunities to park the KB here.� (I can act further forward around Oz and in the Indian Ocean as long as the KB is far away; anothe strategy I can consider is bringing in my carriers to contest the KB, parking close to LA to benefit from massed LRCAP, though that's a risky proposition).

There will be lots of thinking going on for both of us in the coming weeks.

It's fun to be involved in a game like this.

It is much harder for Japan to engage in a strategic bombing campaign against Allied industrial targets than it is conversely for the Allies to engage in one against Japan.

However, if Japan does get into position to threaten Allied industry, either by aerial bombardment or by terrestrial capture, the devastation on Allied capabilities to wage war is much greater. That is because destroyed Allied industrial centres cannot be rebuilt.

That is why a terrestrial advance from Prince Rupert is so devasting. Japan merely has to occupy the inland Canadian industrial bases for a single turn and the Allied industry is transmogrified as per s.13.6 of the manual.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 685

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 4:19:08 PM

Canoerebel

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2/24/42

KB: Kates armed with bombs damage two transports at Alameda. The CAP from San Fran did a decent job considering a surprising paucity of numbers (I would have expected alot more coverage from the 200 fighters based there, though two squadrons had just switched from P-40B to P-40E and may not have been ready to contribute; now they are). Overall, nothing major today today. (The American carriers continue to move north and are now NW of the Canal Zone channel).

West Coast: No sweeps or raids by enemy LBA today. For some reason, my bombers refuse to fly against Bella Bella. I have targeted the base by 4EB at a number of bases, plus Marauders at Prince Rupert, but not one mission has flown over several weeks. The squadrons have commanders with decent aggression levels, so I'm not sure what the problem is. I's not critical yet, as most of my bombers are busy flying supply to Coal Harbor. Until Steve gets his hand on that base, the threat from enemy LBA is relatively small.

DEI: An Aussie brigade will reinforce Cocos Island. I may send even more there, short term. IN Allied hands, Cocos would be a perpetual threat to Japan, and I don't think Steve can mount a good campaign to take the island without the KB, as long as the Allies maintain a good carrier presence. So I intend to build Cocos large if the KB remains committed to the West Coast. Koepang and Soerabaja will likely fall to Japan in the next week or two or three. Still no concerted move on Sabang or Port Blair, nor or Singapore.

Burma: An intricate dance is underway as the Allies pull back towards Schwebo, hoping ot overwhelm the enemy garrison there (one unit strong). There is some risk the Allied army, which is pretty weak, might get hung up and destroyed, but we'll see.

China: The Japanese are still moving along the extreme wings - down near Kunming and way up and over in the Lanchow sector. Neither move will bear fruit, I think. Steve is also positioning some units to perhaps sever the rail line from Hengyang/Changsha to Kweilin, though I'm moving to counter the threat.

Synopsis: Lots going on in this game. Steve is a good player. This is fun. :)

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 4:22:07 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks, Alfred, for the insight. The Allies have each of the bases from Prince Rupert inland garrisoned. That will prevent Steve from using paratroops to seize distant bases followed by strategic movement to break into the interior rapidly. Steve can take Prince Rupert, but from there all bets would be off as he would face a march through forest and mountains while the American divisions moved in to block the way.

I'm also guarding against a similar threat by sea to such bases as Vancouver, Los Angeles and San Diego. Such a move is unlikely, but not impossible if Steve is desperate or very bold or I am very bad.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 687

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 4:31:36 PM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

Bella Bella is in the Cold Zone. it is currently winter up there.

Check the weather forecast for the Bella Bella hex itself.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 688

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 4:49:50 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

If you are still trying to get more troops to Coal Harbour, an overland march is possible. Road is available for 3 of the six hexes distance. The remaining three can be traversed in a few weeks march with no supply drop-off nor malaria.

I have marched the base force from Coal Harbour out to Victoria during my games against the AI. I haven't looked to see if there were any issues moving equipment like vehicles or guns during the march - I just wanted the engineers at Victoria.
At this stage the overland march would take too long to help with reducing the threat but once that situation is stabilized it may help build up CH for a counteroffensive to neutralize the AFs further north.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 689

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 7/20/2012 5:55:34 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

2/25/42

North America: The KB moved further NW and didn't launch any strikes. No LBA raids either. Fairbanks falls. York and Sara might refuel at LA or SD within the week. I am evaluating whether revealing their presence might have any benefits. Probably not, but I'm looking at it.

Elsewhere: Same report as yesterday.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 690

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