RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A)

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RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 3:52:00 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Interesting.....I think putting Aussies on Ceylon is a mistake. That sounds like not enough to hold it, more than you can afford to lose. If 2/3 of the Aussie Division is wiped-out, that division will take forever to rebuild, and never quite be the same. If he comes for Ceylon, he'll be able to bring enough to take it, whether you reinforce or not.

Other than that, sounds like you are well-prepared. Good move on Socotra. The Allies in India get stronger every day, so as Japan you need to really move fast. I couldnt' take it, yet by this time I was already ashore in Ceylon and Vizingapatam, and moving inland, with alot more than 4 divisions

I concur with the Q man here. If the Japanese player is not going for all of India and autovictory then then only real goal in India or Ceylon is to smash up key Allied units. A smashed British division just never will be rebuilt and a smashed Australian will take a year or more depending on how heavy the fighting is in OZ. It looks like Indian divisions can be rebuilt but the reality is that the need to flesh out exsisting divisions and expand them when the time comes puts a great demand on Indian squads even in 1945. I foolishly purchased back every Indian, Brit and Australian unit lost in the early days and the reality is that most are sitting at their home bases with no units in them. The most critical thing is that all Commonwealth units rely on the same device pool and the rate of replacements to that pool is horrible. The Indian army becomes a sledgehammer in 1944 but it needs to be carefully preserved in 42.

After seeing how easy it was for Q to take out Ceylon in your last game, I pretty much decided that it was better to lose Celyon than two or three Commonwealth divisions. However, in the Pacific I would not think twice about the loss of an American divison or two.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 841

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 5:10:56 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

.................

I concur with the Q man here. If the Japanese player is not going for all of India and autovictory then then only real goal in India or Ceylon is to smash up key Allied units. A smashed British division just never will be rebuilt and a smashed Australian will take a year or more depending on how heavy the fighting is in OZ. It looks like Indian divisions can be rebuilt but the reality is that the need to flesh out exsisting divisions and expand them when the time comes puts a great demand on Indian squads even in 1945. I foolishly purchased back every Indian, Brit and Australian unit lost in the early days and the reality is that most are sitting at their home bases with no units in them. The most critical thing is that all Commonwealth units rely on the same device pool and the rate of replacements to that pool is horrible. The Indian army becomes a sledgehammer in 1944 but it needs to be carefully preserved in 42.
...............

As far as India and replacements ... one thought ...Though it takes awhile, there is the benifit of the "bought out" unit itself and once built up enough that unit might garrrison a base and free up a unit with excess garrison coverage ..... For example, Bombay requires only 100 AV but 213 start there .. the 7th division is 160 AV .. so once bought out unit(s) achieve(s) 53 AV .. I can release 160 AV ... this situation exists all over India where as the buy out replacement units can subsitute the current unit(s) at a base. Just like a nickle here a quarter there seems like chump change I sense this could can up to real change .. Like 1000 AV or so ..In employing this strategy I shut off replacements once the target garrsion requirements are fulfilled ..

Just a thought ..

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 842

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 5:11:12 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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I totally understand where you and Q-Ball are coming from, but the circumstances may well be very different in this game, making a defense of Ceylon feasible.

This possibility exists chiefly because I know where many of Steve's divisions and carriers are. He cannot - at leat in the short term - run rough-shod over Ceylon, unlike the situation in my game with Q-Ball. Steve is running short on divisions he can allocate to Ceylon and he doesn't have totaly control of the skies and the seas. He can possibly alter this, but doing so will take quite some time.

At this present moment, the only way Steve can realistically hope to take Ceylon is if I concede it to him. So I don't want to do that. A few good American and Aussie units might well prevent Ceylon from falling, at least in the near term and absent a totaly commitment to the place by Steve.

On a separate but important note, now that Steve has committed all of his major forces, I think the Allies are in good position to counter his moves. The entire game may now come down to the contest near Lanchow. If the Chinese hold there - or lose there but hold successfully in the mountains between Lanchow and Sian - the Allies should be in really good shape. At that point, I can hold my own in China, I can hold my own in North America, and I think I can hold my own in India.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 843

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 6:25:29 PM

Canoerebel

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3/21/42

A very, very good day for the Allies thanks to the actions of a very, very unlikely asset.

India: Blenheims escorted by a small group of RAF fighters strike the port of Chittagong, hoping to score some hits on the stricken enemy escort carriers. Despite being vastly outnumbered by the Japanese CAP, the raid works:

Morning Air attack on Chittagong , at 55,41

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 59

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 19
Hurricane IIa Trop x 1
Hurricane IIb Trop x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
Hurricane IIa Trop: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Hosho, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Brisbane Maru, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
3 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb
5 x Blenheim IV bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
Zuiho-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 19 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
Hosho-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 17000 , scrambling fighters to 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers

Fuel storage explosion on CVE Taiyo
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Taiyo

Impact: I think Steve is very, very mad about these turn of events. He hasn't said a thing, but his sudden change in how he handles the turns and engages in banter totally disappeared. Also, the info that Zuiho is present is important. That means the Allies can definitely outgon the Japanese carriers in NoPac, should they hang around, which I consider unlikely.

India (Continued): IJA paratroops took a vacant dot hex adjacent to Calcutta (this is about the tenth fragment paratroop assault by Japan in the past few weeks). An Indian division at Calcutta will push this unit aside. The two Aussie brigades will arrive at Colombo tonight. I've decided to reinforce. This may prove to be the wrong decision for the reasons spelled out by Brad and crsutton, but we'll see.

China: Here's where the war may be decided. Lots going on in the dance. The Allies have 1,650 AV in the rough hex adjacent to Lanchow. These units have good leaders and very high morale (85 to 99). The Japanese now have 30 units across the river, but 3rd Division is another hex back. I'm thinking (hoping) that STeve will wait for it to come up. The Allies have 1,000 AV at Lanchow and that contingent will join the main army in four days. Steve is also sending a unit through the mountains to try to get between Sian and Lanchow, but I think that's a fool's errand. The Allies can fight on very good terrain. One thing I do regret - I am pulling back from Nanyang on the chance that I might lose at Lanchow and will need to consolidate my lines. My 4,000 AV army, separated in two stacks, leaves their respective hexes tonight. This will get Steve's full attention. But I'll feel better having this army in mountain/rough terrain and more proximate to Sian and therefore the Lanchow sector.

North America: Quiet once again. Has Steve pulled out Akagi/Kaga? My gut says yes. I think they'll reinforce the KB in the Bay of Bengal. But I can't withdraw York/Sara/Hornet yet I need them to protect SoCal if the IJ carriers remain deployed here. Will Steve move on Coal Harbor before 3/31???

Oz: American 4EB are moving through Oz on the way to India with stopovers at Tjilitjap, which Steve hasn't been able to take yet. I think that base will remain open another week or so.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 844

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 6:32:13 PM

Canoerebel

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Also: Steve sent an artillery unit across the river to see what the Chinese have in the hex adjacent to Lanchow. So he knows exactly what's there.

Also, also: Steve has at least four divisions coming. The question is: how many more? My current force should be able to handle roughly six divisions. When my additional 1,000 AV arrive, I can probably handle ten divisions. Does he have that many? I dunno, but I'm about to find out how accurate or inaccurate all of my reconnaissance by bombing has been.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 845

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 8:06:42 PM

Alfred

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I don't understand why so many people continuously place such emphasis on Japan having to make invasions whilst the amphibious bonus period lasts. All that bonus does is provide a greatly speeded up disembarkation rate. Against atolls that is a real benefit, against any other location where an auto shock attack does not result, so what.

Japan needs only these conditions for a hazzle free seaborn invasion of a non atoll hex.

1. Relative safety from sea or air attacks whilst the disembarkation occurs.
2. A relatively weak Allied garrison which cannot push the partially landed japanese forces back into the sea.

Provided these two conditions exist, there is absolutely no reason why Japan cannot conduct major seaborne invasions after the bonus ends.

And for those who continuously ROFL because I know nothing about AE I direct readers attention to my posts of some months back which said that Japan did not need to have Singapore before launching invasions of Indian bases. As usual those posts were also ridiculed by the so called "experts".

As to Canoerebel reinforcing Ceylon, there are certainly risks attached to that strategy but I'm not going to try to dissuade him from that course of action. The risks are not really so much those which have been outlined by others, real as they are, but rather that significant assets are being sent to a location which on balance (a legal concept for Canoerebel's assessment) will not be attacked and therefore those assets will be missing from where the real action is. For I would be surprised if Japan intends to land only 4 divisions in Assam and then dissipate its shwerpunckt by sending substantial forces to Ceylon. A landing on Ceylon in the short term is not consistent with Japan's actions to date.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 846

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 8:19:37 PM

zuluhour

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Dan, that was a fantastic port raid. As someone always "trolling" for a solid attack formula, I think this may have been due to: lack of radar or early warning? I'm sure the weather did not help at that altitude. Any insight how they scored so well against that "solid CAP"? I would also wonder what attribute you may have trained that group on. I may reconsider port attack training if this was a possible direct result.

sincerely,
Zulu HQ

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 847

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 8:22:45 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Also: Steve sent an artillery unit across the river to see what the Chinese have in the hex adjacent to Lanchow. So he knows exactly what's there.

Also, also: Steve has at least four divisions coming. The question is: how many more? My current force should be able to handle roughly six divisions. When my additional 1,000 AV arrive, I can probably handle ten divisions. Does he have that many? I dunno, but I'm about to find out how accurate or inaccurate all of my reconnaissance by bombing has been.

I fear you are falling into the trap of elevating AV too much in importance. Adjusted AV is really only important in determining whether a retreat/change of ownership occurs. It is however firepower which is criticial. Where one side has a far superior firepower it can so signifcantly destroy/damage the other sides devices the entire planning based on unadjusted AV being transferred to adjusted AV becomes a meaningless exercise.

In short, AV really only measures quantity. Firepower measures quality and can make a mockery of the raw quantity figures.

So will the Chinese defences hold. Perhaps yes if the firepower (=quality) disparity in favour of the Japanese forces is not too great. If the disparity is great then 6-8 grade A Japanese divisions, not to mention all the auxiliary forces which are being brought to the action, may very well prevail. Again perhaps not on the opening day of the battle, but soon after.

In addition to the quality factor, availability of supply will be a key factor. Here the Chinese forces will hold an initial advantage being closer to their supply depots than the japanese forces. However those Chinese supply depots will not be able to sustain the intensity and size of the approaching battle whereas distant Japanese supply depots will not be exhausted.

The Allies cannot rely on merely blunting on a frontal basis this Japanese offensive to ultimately prevail. Indierect operations which assist the Lanchow front will be necessary. Canoerebel's idea to march some units to cut the yellow road is sound but the speed of movement might be glacial. Additional indirect operations need to also be evaluated.

Alfred

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 848

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 9:19:44 PM

erstad

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

Dan, that was a fantastic port raid. As someone always "trolling" for a solid attack formula, I think this may have been due to: lack of radar or early warning? I'm sure the weather did not help at that altitude. Any insight how they scored so well against that "solid CAP"?

The combat report indicates only 6 minutes of warning, it took up to 11 minutes for the last of the "solid CAP" to arrive over target.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour
I may reconsider port attack training if this was a possible direct result.

There's a single ground skill that affects port, airfield, and LCU attacks. There is a need for ground trained bombers (on both sides) but they don't have to be explicitly port attack trained.

(in reply to zuluhour)

Post #: 849

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 9:20:23 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Wow, guess I have to eat crow about the Bleinheims.

quote:

I think Steve is very, very mad about these turn of events. He hasn't said a thing, but his sudden change in how he handles the turns and engages in banter totally disappeared.

No kidding. 19 Bleinheims with a paltry escort of only 5 Hurris get past 59 crack Zeroes and land 10 bomb hits. Ouch. That is one of those grumbling to yourself "*** **** lucky die rolls" moments. I wonder if he got the planes off.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 850

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 10:02:17 PM

Canoerebel

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3/22/42

China: No attack in China today. That means the Allied AV (unadjusted, of course) will be 1850. Alfred, we know that adjusted AV is the real deal, but I don't know what that is yet, so all I can use as a rough gauge of strength is gross AV. My two stacks moved up the road towards Sian. It also seems taht Steve is reinforcing his attack near Ankang, but I've reinforced ahead of him, so I'm hoping he's stymied there.

Ceylon: Under the current condition, Ceylon is too important to not protect. Holding Ceylon, Diego and Socatra in strength, with the addition of the Allied carriers, makes it unlikely that Steve will penetrate to try a landing on India's west coast. That could change at some point, but I think that's good until he brings up Akagi and Kaga, if he does so. If, on the other hand, he lands in strength on the east coast, I can pull out the Ceylon troops and reposition them in the Bombay or Karachi sectors.

India: Another big KB air raid against Calcutta. No parra assaults today. Japan takes Cox's Bazaar against weak opposition. The rear bases protecting the routes of transit from east to west are mostly garrisoned now, with the others to get cover in the next day or two. IE, a blitzkrieg is unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised to see Steve land at Viz or the base to the south, nor would I be completely surprised to see a move on Ceylon, but I don't think he'll move on the west coast yet.

Port Blair: 38th Div. came ashore here. The Indian CD unit didn't do very much, but a Dutch sub claimed an xAK with tanks aboard. 38th was at Koepang 17 days ago.

Luzon: Two IJA divisons (16th and 33rd) arrived at Bataan. That's two more divisions accounted for.

NoPac: Quiet. I'm very tempted to move Hornet from Balboa to Capetown, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 851

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 11:05:59 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

India: Blenheims escorted by a small group of RAF fighters strike the port of Chittagong, hoping to score some hits on the stricken enemy escort carriers. Despite being vastly outnumbered by the Japanese CAP, the raid works:

Good on you CR. I've been playing for years against the AI and the only thing a Blenheim has ever hit is the ground. Sure it's only 2 CVE's but you are doing the only thing the Allies can do at this point, make his advances expensive. He's all over the place now and shuttling between the West coast of the US and NE India with Singapore still around is not exactly the interior line advantage the Japanese player usually has. Your opponent is good, I expect you may see a bit more focus going forward.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 852

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 11:09:15 PM

Cap Mandrake

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I'm very tempted to move Hornet from Balboa to Capetown, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Whoa! How long does that take?

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 853

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 11:35:48 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I'm very tempted to move Hornet from Balboa to Capetown, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Whoa! How long does that take?

Three weeks, if memory serves. It would take as long to go via the Pacific, with less danger involved (I'm a little concerned that Steve might have Soryu and Junyo astraddle the sea lanes between Oz and India).

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 854

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 11:40:31 PM

Cribtop

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I suspect the Blenheims benefitted from the fact that the CVEs were immobile in port and already heavily damaged. That said, Dan, that was good stuff!

_____________________________

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 855

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/4/2012 11:43:22 PM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
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Edited to say: Never mind!

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/5/2012 12:16:35 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 856

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 3:32:51 AM

Schlemiel

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Off map ships can actually go full speed without using fuel or damaging engines when transiting between off map bases. Hornet ought to be able to go from Balboa to Capetown in closer to 10 days than 3 weeks.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 857

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 12:48:34 PM

Canoerebel

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3/23/42

KB: Pulling back from the Calcutta region, the carrier's aircraft target Port Blair, as do alot of LBA bombers. I'm hopoing one of my choke-point subs will get a shot at his carriers in the coming days.

Allied Carriers: Stationed SW of Attu Atoll while awaiting their squadrons, currently at Bombay, to replace downed aircraft (and hopefully for the SBDs to upgrade to the -3 model).

Combat Ships: Prince of Wales, which spent 45 days in the yards, is ready to go and has joined Repulse at Colombo. Theyll remain there a few days to cover some important merchant shipping. Then they'll work in tandem with the carriers. Right now, my biggest concern is a snap IJ invasion of Socatra. Also possible, but not as "deadly," would be an invasion of Diego.

India Defenses: I'll reveal the Marine presence tomorrow when one regiment attacks a para-fragment at Jamedspur. I want Steve to know that the Allies haven't been neglecting India. The two Aussie brigades unloaded at Colombo, but I don't think they'll stay. Both are 100% prepped for Karachi, so I think I'll err on the side of using that prep. I'm also inclined to send the US Army RCT due to arrive on map from Capetown in four days to Socotra. If Steve truly has grand designs on India, I must hold Socotra for the next two months while reinforcements are coming in. A Brit divison begins arriving at Aden in a month, so that's another important step. I've sent Hornet to Capetown from Balboa.

India Reinforcements: Also, most of 18th UK Div. just left Perth heading west. 27th/A and 27th/B USA Div. might follow. There is a very small chance Steve could switch up and now pull back all his troops to invade Oz. Very, very, very unlikely, but I won't strip Oz of the Americans for just a tad bit longer (and I need more transports at Perth anyhow).

Port Blair: 38th IJA Div. plus a tank brigade barely got 1:1 odds against the garrison - which is primarily two Indian brigades, and dropped forts one level to two. However, the Japanese suffered higher casulaties in the shock attack.

CA Dorsetshire: A couple of weeks ago this cruiser ate three trops from Kates when the KB popped up near Cocos. The ship stood down at the island for a few weeks, but is now enroute to Capteown and it looks like she might make it.

China: Summary of the three major scenes of action: (1) Lanchow: No enemy attack yet. Day after tomorrow the Allies will have 2600 AV present. Holding my fingers no attack tomorrow. (2) Ankang: The IJ army is retiring from the hex east of this base. This was a signal victory for outnumbered Chinese troops facing three good divisions. (3) Right now, four IJ divsions are across the river from Hengyang in agricutlural terrain. The Chinese have 4,400 AV split between two hexes across the river from the Japs. Should the Chinese attack? If successful in breaking the backs of these IJ divisions, some of the heat would be off in the east, freeing the Allies to attend to their MLR more securely.

Port Moresby: CA Houston led a big combat TF into PM, tanging first with a small combat TF anchored by two CLs. This little clash was inconclusive and with little damage, to my disappointment. Then the Allied ships roughed up part of a big transport TF.

North America: No sign of the Akagi carrier group. If I had to guess, I'd say those ships are making for the Indian Ocean. No enemy attacks whatsoever. I do look for an IJ attack on Coal Harbor "now or never," because the Allies have a good garrison plus tons of air proximate. If Steve isn't coming for Coal in the near future, then the threat from Japanese bombers begins to dimish considerably.

(in reply to Schlemiel)

Post #: 858

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 2:25:51 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't understand why so many people continuously place such emphasis on Japan having to make invasions whilst the amphibious bonus period lasts. All that bonus does is provide a greatly speeded up disembarkation rate. Against atolls that is a real benefit, against any other location where an auto shock attack does not result, so what.

Japan needs only these conditions for a hazzle free seaborn invasion of a non atoll hex.

1. Relative safety from sea or air attacks whilst the disembarkation occurs.
2. A relatively weak Allied garrison which cannot push the partially landed japanese forces back into the sea.

Provided these two conditions exist, there is absolutely no reason why Japan cannot conduct major seaborne invasions after the bonus ends.

Alfred

wonder if you know the difference between a fully unprepped invasion during the amphib bonus phase and after it. You know what happens to units that land somewhere uprepared after the amphib bonus? Probably not? THAT would be the real difference, I give a damn sh*t about the unloading speed, it's all about the one major factor of the amphib bonus and that sure isn't fast unloading.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/5/2012 2:26:56 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 859

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 3:10:01 PM

Q-Ball

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Castor is right, though he could have said it a little nicer.....the main thing on the amphib bonus isn't unload rates, it's the disruption you don't suffer when landing unprepped troops during that period. You can unload a completely unprepped land unit, and the only disruption it will suffer is from enemy fire; it lands almost intact. This means you can continuously pick up, move, conquer, etc.

On April 1, when the magic wears off, that goes away. This greatly slows down the Japanese tempo, because from that date, you have to actually prep forces in advance.

This also means the Japanese have to clear Singapore and the SRA by March 1 at the latest, in order to get to whatever phase 2 is and land by April 1.

Japanese players have to make max use of that bonus period. That's why time is so critical to the Japanese in first 3 months (among other factors).

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 8/5/2012 3:11:58 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 860

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 4:26:14 PM

modrow

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Castor,

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't understand why so many people continuously place such emphasis on Japan having to make invasions whilst the amphibious bonus period lasts. All that bonus does is provide a greatly speeded up disembarkation rate. Against atolls that is a real benefit, against any other location where an auto shock attack does not result, so what.

Japan needs only these conditions for a hazzle free seaborn invasion of a non atoll hex.

1. Relative safety from sea or air attacks whilst the disembarkation occurs.
2. A relatively weak Allied garrison which cannot push the partially landed japanese forces back into the sea.

Provided these two conditions exist, there is absolutely no reason why Japan cannot conduct major seaborne invasions after the bonus ends.

Alfred

wonder if you know the difference between a fully unprepped invasion during the amphib bonus phase and after it. You know what happens to units that land somewhere uprepared after the amphib bonus? Probably not? THAT would be the real difference, I give a damn sh*t about the unloading speed, it's all about the one major factor of the amphib bonus and that sure isn't fast unloading.

wonder if you know that Alfred belongs to the people who insist knowing where want to be in 6 months time (and actually beyond that) is a must. For that reason, this difference most likely is no real difference to him, for that's ample of time to prep.

Of course, the amazing ability to do impromptu invasions vanishes with the amphib bonus. Of course, said bonus is a crutch that is really really not ideal (and actually tends to make your gameplay sloppy). But IMHO Alfred is totally correct when he states that Japan can conduct invasions at a later point of time if certain conditions are met and the issue you mention is unsuited to render this statement incorrect.

Just my 2cts

Hartwig

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 861

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 4:57:28 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Wow, someone skipped finishing school.

In essence, after the amphbious bonus disappears, JJ simply has to do what the Arries have to do, which is prep. JJ has the disadvantage that their prep orders may show up in Arried intel but this can be partly offset by "spoof-prepping" idle units for bases at which JJ does not intend to land.

Also, being less equipment-heavy, IJA units are easier to load. Not till '43 does the Arries start to get LST's and not till march 43 do they get APA's.

Quite possibly, JJ has units prepped already for follow-on landings..or they bring an army ashore at Chittagong and advance overland.

(in reply to modrow)

Post #: 862

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/5/2012 9:25:44 PM

Canoerebel

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3/24/42

China: (1) Lanchow Sector - the Japanese didn't cross the river. That means the Chinese reinforcmeent will reach the hex, bringing to gross AV to about 2,600. Judging by the "movement dot" in the Japanese hex, Steve may be moving all or part of his stack off the road and into the mountains. I'm not sure I understand that move, if that's actually what's happing, as the Allies have interior lines and a good road to work with. (2) Hengyang Sector: I've set both Chinese units to advance - I want to see if, in combat mode, the stack in the woods hex advances at the same rate as the stack in the clear hex. If not, I'll have to calculate whether I can make the attack simultaneously.

Bay of Bengal: KB pulls back into the Andman Sea. Several weeks ago, Steve pulled out part of his Johore Bharu stack and sent it to Georgetown, where he now picks them up for ready insertion into the India theater.

India: A Marine regiment destroys the Japanese paratroops at Jamedspur, so Steve knows the cavalry - in unknown strenth - is present. Could Steve truly be going for Bombay and Karachi? It seems so unlikely, but so did an invasion of Chittagong seem unlikely ten days ago.

North America: Nothing. BB Maryland is in the East Coast yards and will be ready for action in two months. BB Arizona will arrive at the yards in a couple of weeks. Tennessee and Nevada are ready to depart Pearl. I'm not yet sure whether they'll follow the first two or if, instead, they'll head to SoCal. Warpsite, currently at LA, will be ready for action within a week. The Allies have four BBs on the West Coast.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 863

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 1:21:41 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't understand why so many people continuously place such emphasis on Japan having to make invasions whilst the amphibious bonus period lasts. All that bonus does is provide a greatly speeded up disembarkation rate. Against atolls that is a real benefit, against any other location where an auto shock attack does not result, so what.

Japan needs only these conditions for a hazzle free seaborn invasion of a non atoll hex.

1. Relative safety from sea or air attacks whilst the disembarkation occurs.
2. A relatively weak Allied garrison which cannot push the partially landed japanese forces back into the sea.

Provided these two conditions exist, there is absolutely no reason why Japan cannot conduct major seaborne invasions after the bonus ends.

Alfred

wonder if you know the difference between a fully unprepped invasion during the amphib bonus phase and after it. You know what happens to units that land somewhere uprepared after the amphib bonus? Probably not? THAT would be the real difference, I give a damn sh*t about the unloading speed, it's all about the one major factor of the amphib bonus and that sure isn't fast unloading.

I recall loading the wrong division by accident and putting the 1st Marine ashore unprepped at an undefended Lunga. I had about 2/3rds of my total squads disrupted. Using AP and AK class ships which were the best I had at the time. Perhaps it is also a die roll but I certainly felt the pain there.

I will say that it seems that using small landing craft types ships result in far less disruption to units that are poorly prepped.

This eventually works to the Allies advantage.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/6/2012 1:24:12 AM >

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(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 864

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 2:34:42 AM

princep01

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Just for the record, Q-ball mentioned that the Japanese Naval Amphibious Bonus lasts 3 months. This is not correct, but I know that others suffer from this preception. Unless the bonus has changed since the manual was written, the special bonus lasts, "the first four months of the war" (p 127). Taken literally, than means it ends after April 6, 1942. Obviously, it is still in play in this game.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 865

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 3:32:16 AM

Canoerebel

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I think the invasion bonus expires at the end of March, but I also thought until about four days ago that desert/rough terrain gave a 3x defensive bonus (it's actually 2x). So I could be wrong.

The invasion bonus is largely irrelevant for remote and lightly defended invasion targets. This means it's largely irrelevant for big land masses with plenty of targets, meaning that defenses are likely to be non existent or dispersed. So the lack of the bonus won't matter much if Steve wants to invade parts of India or Australia.

But it does complicate invasions of well defended single-based islands or atolls. In particular, I think it's significant for Coal Harbor on Vancouver Island. That beach is within range of alot of Allied air at Vancouver, Victoria, Prince Rupert and Seattle. I would think Steve would want every advantage in invading there, or else he'd have to bring overwhelming force, which I don't think he has available any more since so many of his divisions are committed across the globe.

So for Coal Harbor the invasion bonus is key. It might also be a signficant factor at Diego Garcia, Cocos Island and Socatra, which are well defended but certainly not insurmountable. Invade before the bonus expires and the task should be much easier and quicker.

I'm also interested in whether the loss of the two CVEs might affect Steve's decision making. Obviously, he felt more comfortable invading deep into hostile territory with those ships present to provide air cover. Their loss might make him less likely to go deep.

If Steve brings Akagi and Kaga the equation will change again. I wonder if that's what he's doing. I think so.

(in reply to princep01)

Post #: 866

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 7:29:00 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Castor is right, though he could have said it a little nicer.....the main thing on the amphib bonus isn't unload rates, it's the disruption you don't suffer when landing unprepped troops during that period. You can unload a completely unprepped land unit, and the only disruption it will suffer is from enemy fire; it lands almost intact. This means you can continuously pick up, move, conquer, etc.

On April 1, when the magic wears off, that goes away. This greatly slows down the Japanese tempo, because from that date, you have to actually prep forces in advance.

This also means the Japanese have to clear Singapore and the SRA by March 1 at the latest, in order to get to whatever phase 2 is and land by April 1.

Japanese players have to make max use of that bonus period. That's why time is so critical to the Japanese in first 3 months (among other factors).

And disablements! Land an unprepped unit without the amphib bonus (or as the Allied) and see it getting up to 70-80% disabled troops/equipment from landing only. That is what the amphib bonus is about for me.

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Post #: 867

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 7:30:15 AM

castor troy

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double post

< Message edited by castor troy -- 8/6/2012 7:34:11 AM >

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Post #: 868

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 4:11:14 PM

Canoerebel

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3/25/42

Sub Wars: One small consequence of Steve not taking Signapore rang out today. When it became clear Steve was moving into the Bay of Bengal, the Allies redeployed there 15 or 20 subs from the South China Sea and environs. These subs stopped at Singers (and a few from further east at Tjilitjap) to refuel. Those subs knocked out an IJ CL early in the campaign. Today, a Dutch sub put a torp into BB Haruna. (That's the first successful sub strike against an IJ capital ship in the war, following on two misses against BBs earlier in the game. The campaign against merchant shipping has been much more fruitful, though whether it's had any real impact I don't know. Steve's probably addressed that in his AAR.)

Bay of Bengal: Most of the carriers and transports have retired close to Georgetown, probably in the process of bringing up the second wave. Here's hoping the subs strike again. Steve may have to reinforce to take Port Blair any time soon. He has one division that was pretty beat up in the first attack, plus a small tank unit. So Port Blair is serving it's function - acting as a speed bump that ties up one division for awhile (though some might argue that losing two Indian brigades makes it a wash). Allied patrol aircraft at Sabang are giving me good looks at all the Japanese shipipng in the region.

American Carriers: One SBD-2 squadron upgraded to the -3 model at Bombay. I hope I can restore my carrier aircraft to the carrier within two or three days. The carriers are SW of North Male Island, trying to lay low but in position to cover Socatra in the event Steve tries a surreptitious deep strike.

India: The Allies have been digging at important bases on the west coast for months now - Goa, Surat, Bhamgart (spelling?) in particular. The latter two have decent garrisons, of which Bham has 310 AV (it's the port closest to Karachi). The Allies also have 300 AV at Viz, though Japan can simply land at the adjacent base to the south.

Reinforcements: An American RCT is on transports that just clear out of the Capetown channel and is making for Bombay, ETA five days. This unit is 100% prepped for Bombay. The second US RCT just left Capetown and is making for Socatra. 18th UK Div. is aboard transports that departed Perth three days ago. (I'm worried that Steve has the sea lanes between Oz and India covered, so I'm using five DDs as pickets and flankers.) Another UK divisions arrives at Aden over the next two to four weeks. Three American fighter squadrons are aboard transports enroute from Melbourne and are probably two weeks away. American 4EB continue to hop from USA to Pearl to Pago Pago to Oz to Tjilitjap (but Cocos Island airfield just went to level one, so now it can serve as a way-base) and finally to Colombo.

China: Still no crossing of the river above Lanchow. The movement-indicating dot still suggests some (all???) of the Japanese units are moving cross country into the mountain region between Lanchow and the base to the east. (What the heck? Given good terrain and plenty of time, the Chinese can probably stand better in that area than they could in the rough terrain near Lanchow.) This is a too good to be true scenario. So I'm still apprehensive about a massive attack near Lanchow. Down near Hengyang, the two Chinese stacks both moved 15 miles (one in forested hex, the other in Hengyang). This means that 4,000+ AV will shock attack across river against four IJA divisions in four days unless something happens in the meantime.

North America: Placid.

Port Moresby: CA Houston TF returned to this base and savaged several more transports and escorts.

(in reply to castor troy)

Post #: 869

RE: War and Peas - Hortlund (J) vs. Canoe (A) - 8/6/2012 4:25:52 PM

Canoerebel

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Here's an important debate I'm having with myself right now. Input is welcome.

It would be fantastic to have a complete list of all the IJA units across the river from the Chinese army near Lanchow. Steve has already sent a solo arty unit across the river to get complete roster info on my troops. I don't particularly like that tactic; never have, so I never do it unless I sacrifice a real unit that has firepower. Since he's done it here and has used paratroops to do the same thing, I'm inclined to wave my objections and reciprocate, using a headquarters unit for the job.

Thoughts?

Edited to Add: On further thought, I'll do it. I can't see any meanginful difference between sending an artillery unit across the river (as Steve did) and sending a headquarters unit (something like the Allies did on Guadalcanal after getting word that a contingent of Japanese soldiers was willing to surrender, which led to an awful debacle for the American troops and intel men that went forward to investigate).

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/6/2012 4:47:08 PM >

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