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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 7:53:48 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tullius, I have yet any see any real explanation about this this game Pelton talks about and regard it as an urban legend.

I truly wish he had bothered documenting it in a detailed AAR. But right now I can't take it very seriously. The precise circumstances involved remain a complete mystery. It has never happened in any other game. Handwaving and anecdote and theorycrafting aren't a substitute for a solid AAR. We have no screenshots, no contemporaneous evidence at all. The entire blizzard offensive in the AAR mentioned was skipped and then we get "oops, game over, Reds killed lotsa divisons!" I need a little more than that. The whole thing is fishy as hell.

I keep waiting for somebody else to duplicate this mythological Soviet blizzard destroying 30+ divisions and showing exactly how this happens but thus far, this is a one off.

Pelton's comments about "building" the right Red Army themselves show that he doesn't really know what happened. A Soviet player doesn't "build" anything at this stage of the game; he manages what he's received. The real building occurs later on.


Ah, but haven't you guys picked this up yet? Pelton only shows the good stuff, God forbid any "mistakes" he makes must certainly remain unmentioned
One must always think about ones reputation, euh...

Sorry Pelton, couldn't help myself

< Message edited by glvaca -- 6/20/2012 7:59:11 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:07:21 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tullius, I have yet any see any real explanation about this this game Pelton talks about and regard it as an urban legend.

I truly wish he had bothered documenting it in a detailed AAR. But right now I can't take it very seriously. The precise circumstances involved remain a complete mystery. It has never happened in any other game. Handwaving and anecdote and theorycrafting aren't a substitute for a solid AAR. We have no screenshots, no contemporaneous evidence at all. The entire blizzard offensive in the AAR mentioned was skipped and then we get "oops, game over, Reds killed lotsa divisons!" I need a little more than that. The whole thing is fishy as hell.


If he says x divisions were annihilated I believe him. As a matter of fact, I always try to trust people (even on the cyber space ).

If these divisions were annihilated he was not running away, at least in that particular game or just in some parts of the front. Again, not sure the broken down divisions (regiment 1:1 ants during the blizzard, let's not forget it) will make any difference to stop TDV's trick. It will not work always, but if it works let's say 20 times during the whole blizzard you might have destroyed let's say 20 divisions (or a mix of divisions and regiments).

TDV could help here and tell us exactly what he did.

Let me find that pic, somewhere in one of these [Pelton?] AARs

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:09:27 PM   
Flaviusx


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:37:43 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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I have just done it again. Right, this will NOT always work, but if it works, the victims are dead meat. RIP




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< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 6/20/2012 8:38:50 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:40:43 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Yes, yes, zoc lock.

This doesn't tell us anything, Tullius. It really doesn't. It falls under the "handwaving, anecdotes, and theorycraft" rubric.

Good Soviet players do this sort of thing as a matter of course. But translating that into 30+ dead divisions is another story.

WTB actual screenshots of an AAR.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/20/2012 8:43:22 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:45:51 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		In fact I suspect I had done this vs 2ndACR, without even knowing what I was doing But minimum I bagged a dozen German divisions + some weak allies.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:49:23 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Yes, yes, zoc lock.

This doesn't tell us anything, Tullius. It really doesn't. It falls under the "handwaving, anecdotes, and theorycraft" rubric.

Good Soviet players do this sort of thing as a matter of course. But translating that into 30+ dead divisions is another story.

WTB actual screenshots of an AAR.



It's clearly telling ME that if German units happen to be next to Soviet units they might be *destroyed* And IF you can do that one time, what will stop you from doing this 2, 3, 4... 10 times?

Withdrawing a little bit every turn. Ok... Just as the Germans did...

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 8:57:39 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It's not that simple, Tullius. If it were that simple everybody would be doing it in every game. Oftentimes the movement points just aren't there to pull this off consistently. Reserves will spoil it. So will exhaustion and the diminishing effects of the blizzard.

The devil is in the details.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 9:02:30 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The info is posted get your facts right before starting your standard personal attacks


Too bad you're back to your old habits of exaggeration and hyperbole. I'm not the one making strawman arguments; the fact that one person did it to you once in an AAR (which I read) hardly means that a Sov player should be able to pocket 30-50 units while the German is moving backwards as fast as possible.


I'm in Feb 44 in my pbem and have *yet* to pocket 5 divisions, let alone 30-50.

So I just do it the old fashioned way. Grind grind grind some more. The infantry can't keep up with his where he retreats though.

But when I can, a massive avalanche of cav/mech/inf with an artillery storm makes big holes. But the tank armies are too exhausted to do much when that happens..



< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/20/2012 9:08:08 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 9:12:19 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's not that simple, Tullius. If it were that simple everybody would be doing it in every game. Oftentimes the movement points just aren't there to pull this off consistently. Reserves will spoil it. So will exhaustion and the diminishing effects of the blizzard.

The devil is in the details.


Hmm... Pelton clearly said TDV focused on this strategy. Although I have known this "trick" for months, I never think about it when I plan attacks. But if you 100% do it... The principle is simple, and the enemy... weak, really REALLY weak

Just imagine the january and february turns: 8 turns? Let's say you choose 2 victims per turn (you really concentrate all the evil in two places)... Not really ambitious if you ask me. That would make er, like 16 victims. Not too bad.

And if you really use a Taylorism approach (as TDV apparently did ), you might get better results... I don't want to think Pelton is utter incompetent eh...

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 9:21:49 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Tullius, we'll never know what happened or how. And therefore all of this is idle speculation. I want actual evidence. Nothing you've talked about here is news to me. But once again, taking these principles and translating them into destroying entire army groups is a big leap and requires much more information than has been given.

I've been begging for specifics on this for months and they haven't been forthcoming. Until they do, this is basically a nothingburger.

Moral of the story: if something seriously weird and bad happens to you in a game, for the love of God, document it. If you are too embarrassed to do so, then you have to live with the game as is.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 9:27:49 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I'm in Feb 44 in my pbem and have *yet* to pocket 5 divisions, let alone 30-50.

So I just do it the old fashioned way. Grind grind grind some more. The infantry can't keep up with his where he retreats though.

But when I can, a massive avalanche of cav/mech/inf with an artillery storm makes big holes. But the tank armies are too exhausted to do much when that happens..


Same here. I just hit 1943 () and no enemy divisions in my pockets. And I know there is *this* trick One thing is certain, it works best during the first blizzard and then later, when the Red Army is an über Killing-Machine

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 9:32:09 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tullius, we'll never know what happened or how. And therefore all of this is idle speculation. I want actual evidence. Nothing you've talked about here is news to me. But once again, taking these principles and translating them into destroying entire army groups is a big leap and requires much more information than has been given.

I've been begging for specifics on this for months and they haven't been forthcoming. Until they do, this is basically a nothingburger.

Moral of the story: if something seriously weird and bad happens to you in a game, for the love of God, document it. If you are too embarrassed to do so, then you have to live with the game as is.


We know at least lots of Pelton's divisions were annihilated (we're going to trust him, I guess). We also know he is an excellent player (at least offensively speaking)... And we also know TDV was some sort of psycho who was obsessed about these "special maneuvers", tricks or whatever

Fair enough

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/20/2012 10:19:18 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tullius, we'll never know what happened or how. And therefore all of this is idle speculation. I want actual evidence. Nothing you've talked about here is news to me. But once again, taking these principles and translating them into destroying entire army groups is a big leap and requires much more information than has been given.

I've been begging for specifics on this for months and they haven't been forthcoming. Until they do, this is basically a nothingburger.

Moral of the story: if something seriously weird and bad happens to you in a game, for the love of God, document it. If you are too embarrassed to do so, then you have to live with the game as is.


We know at least lots of Pelton's divisions were annihilated (we're going to trust him, I guess). We also know he is an excellent player (at least offensively speaking)... And we also know TDV was some sort of psycho who was obsessed about these "special maneuvers", tricks or whatever

Fair enough


From the few pieces of information available I "guess" this sort of happened:
1. Pelton moved his best infantry & most armoured back to Germany for the March offensive.
2. This left him with very few reserves in the front line.
3. He was not expecting to need them as he anticipated moving back a couple of hexes each turn.
4. Instead of leaving before the first blizzard turn, he left probably on the first blizzard turn.
5. As a result, he was not able to have enough distance between his units and the Cav, which using single divisions, penetrated his lines and ZOC locked per above, many divisions.
6. And it snowballed from there.

As pointed out, we all try to do this, but it only works well against a German with few reserves to counter attack if needed.
Anyway, that's my guess.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/21/2012 12:40:26 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

Ah, but haven't you guys picked this up yet? Pelton only shows the good stuff, God forbid any "mistakes" he makes must certainly remain unmentioned
One must always think about ones reputation, euh...

Sorry Pelton, couldn't help myself


I have 3 loses and they have AAR's

I have 15 AAR's up including the loses. The 5 not included are wins heheh very early wins.

I have posted all my disasters along with most of my wins.

You could help yourself by reading

Good game skills poor furom skills


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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/21/2012 12:51:57 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tullius, we'll never know what happened or how. And therefore all of this is idle speculation. I want actual evidence. Nothing you've talked about here is news to me. But once again, taking these principles and translating them into destroying entire army groups is a big leap and requires much more information than has been given.

I've been begging for specifics on this for months and they haven't been forthcoming. Until they do, this is basically a nothingburger.

Moral of the story: if something seriously weird and bad happens to you in a game, for the love of God, document it. If you are too embarrassed to do so, then you have to live with the game as is.


We know at least lots of Pelton's divisions were annihilated (we're going to trust him, I guess). We also know he is an excellent player (at least offensively speaking)... And we also know TDV was some sort of psycho who was obsessed about these "special maneuvers", tricks or whatever

Fair enough


From the few pieces of information available I "guess" this sort of happened:
1. Pelton moved his best infantry & most armoured back to Germany for the March offensive.
2. This left him with very few reserves in the front line.
3. He was not expecting to need them as he anticipated moving back a couple of hexes each turn.
4. Instead of leaving before the first blizzard turn, he left probably on the first blizzard turn.
5. As a result, he was not able to have enough distance between his units and the Cav, which using single divisions, penetrated his lines and ZOC locked per above, many divisions.
6. And it snowballed from there.

As pointed out, we all try to do this, but it only works well against a German with few reserves to counter attack if needed.
Anyway, that's my guess.


1. I started retreating before the first blizzard turn as is my standard move the last turn of snow.
2. I had the reserves close to front, but did not receact fast enough as I had never seen the use of cav and tank units.
3. This blizzard army Flaviusx knows the basic make-up-allot of small cav and tank units. Its impossible to retreat fast enough vs this mobil army
4. Basicly a snowball effect yes.

If I was able to only lose less then 20 units I would have had a feild day come 42 as the SHC had basicly zero trucks and was losing an amazing amount of men the first 2 months of summer. I was unable to mount an offensive because of really low moral in 75% of my infantry units.

This blizzard O is a huge gamble for the SHC. The 2 keys for SHC is German losses and weakening German morale.

This tactic will never work again vs myself because I have seen it and have a counter now.

That is the one good thing about this game there are still things to try and play against even after 20+ games.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/21/2012 12:54:19 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/21/2012 5:22:41 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Pelton, I think the key to defeating this sort of thing is to make use of regimental reserves as Bob explained a while back. A single German mobile regiment reacting can usually shut down a hasty attack, even in blizzard. Reserves, and I'm not sure why this is so, are disproportionately strong in defense reactions. This is equally true on the Soviet side; a single rifle division reacting in reserve mode is stronger than that same division actually defending the hex directly. Reserves seem to get some kind of surprise bonus. (True also I think for offensive reserves, and if both sides get reserve activations, they can cancel each other out.) I'm not sure what's going on here exactly, the code is a mystery, but that's what I see happening.





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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/21/2012 6:47:47 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

quote:

Ah, but haven't you guys picked this up yet? Pelton only shows the good stuff, God forbid any "mistakes" he makes must certainly remain unmentioned
One must always think about ones reputation, euh...

Sorry Pelton, couldn't help myself


I have 3 loses and they have AAR's

I have 15 AAR's up including the loses. The 5 not included are wins heheh very early wins.

I have posted all my disasters along with most of my wins.

You could help yourself by reading

Good game skills poor furom skills



My problem is I have a good memory. In that specific AAR you refuse to tell what happened and quite clearly state something in the order that the other guy needs to make his own AAR to brag of his own achievements.

In combination with a good memory I detest bias. Either side.

Cough, right, poor forum skill. Hmmm, isn't that sort of the story of the pot blaming the cettle?

Anyway, I should not have made a joke about it.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 12:02:33 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, I think the key to defeating this sort of thing is to make use of regimental reserves as Bob explained a while back. A single German mobile regiment reacting can usually shut down a hasty attack, even in blizzard. Reserves, and I'm not sure why this is so, are disproportionately strong in defense reactions. This is equally true on the Soviet side; a single rifle division reacting in reserve mode is stronger than that same division actually defending the hex directly. Reserves seem to get some kind of surprise bonus. (True also I think for offensive reserves, and if both sides get reserve activations, they can cancel each other out.) I'm not sure what's going on here exactly, the code is a mystery, but that's what I see happening.






Great point, personally I never even used reserves until I played M60 and the few games after. I have used them crossing major rivers with great effect also.

After getting some great advice from other players reserves work amazing good defending. Atleast winning and extra 36% of battle and more. Someone posted some great info from there game vs computer over time and the results were huge over 20 turns.

I have yet to use them during blizzard.

Defending I am yet a newbie, but learning quickly.

MT is green like I was back in the day from 42-45, but he has many great AAR's to read in advance of his first 42 offensive.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 12:05:18 AM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		glvaca I have eaten some humble pie in the past hehehe and probably will again.



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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 8:08:14 AM   
randallw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, I think the key to defeating this sort of thing is to make use of regimental reserves as Bob explained a while back. A single German mobile regiment reacting can usually shut down a hasty attack, even in blizzard. Reserves, and I'm not sure why this is so, are disproportionately strong in defense reactions. This is equally true on the Soviet side; a single rifle division reacting in reserve mode is stronger than that same division actually defending the hex directly. Reserves seem to get some kind of surprise bonus. (True also I think for offensive reserves, and if both sides get reserve activations, they can cancel each other out.) I'm not sure what's going on here exactly, the code is a mystery, but that's what I see happening.






Reserves, by the rules, have no enemy unit adjacent to them, thusly no fatigue from attrition.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 8:18:10 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
After getting some great advice from other players reserves work amazing good defending. Atleast winning and extra 36% of battle and more.


I've seen defensive reserves in action and they seem pretty effective in forcing the Sovs to commit large forces to virtually every attack. That said, when reserves are committed and the battle is lost anyway, from what I've seen the reserve units take a beating, thus increasing the rate of attrition, which I am not sure is a good thing for the Germans. Have any German players done any cost/benefit analysis on this?

The tricky thing is that if the Sovs commit too much strength to a battle, reserves are not committed; at some point Sov players should try to figure out how many forces to attack with to trigger reserve commitment but still achieve a victory.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 1:26:48 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		I think there is a period in the game where German reserves are very effective, but only up to a certain point in time for the reasons 76mm mentioned. At some point, most Russian attacks are going to succeed anyway with extra heavy losses to the reserve unit. The decision to stop using reserves as much will be a tricky one for the German and likely depend on time, map position, and state of forces. It is also a shell game as well between the two sides with the Russians likely forced to do fewer attacks, etc when they think the Germans have loaded the front with a lot of reserve units. If the Russians don't believe there is much in the way of reserves, there will be just that many more attacks.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 2:05:06 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

glvaca I have eaten some humble pie in the past hehehe and probably will again.




Don't we all?

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/22/2012 5:53:27 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
After getting some great advice from other players reserves work amazing good defending. Atleast winning and extra 36% of battle and more.


I've seen defensive reserves in action and they seem pretty effective in forcing the Sovs to commit large forces to virtually every attack. That said, when reserves are committed and the battle is lost anyway, from what I've seen the reserve units take a beating, thus increasing the rate of attrition, which I am not sure is a good thing for the Germans. Have any German players done any cost/benefit analysis on this?

The tricky thing is that if the Sovs commit too much strength to a battle, reserves are not committed; at some point Sov players should try to figure out how many forces to attack with to trigger reserve commitment but still achieve a victory.


The reserve tactic is good from late 42 to late 43/early 44. The time frame depends on how good the german player did during 41/42 summers. It basicly can buy the GHC 6 to 12 months

Some games the German army in 43 is huge an can take allot of losses. Its another one of the knifes edge things.

The game basicly centers around Moscow now, which it should. The manpower hit from its lose is huge.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/23/2012 2:35:18 AM   
Phanatikk


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Status: offline 		I'm considering getting the game.

So, what's a "mule" or "muling." I assume muling is a verb. heh hee

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/23/2012 2:58:35 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Doesn't matter since the rules have eliminated it. Had to do with a supply build up mechanism that could be abused by convoluted HQ shifting...

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/23/2012 1:49:59 PM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		Its nerfed not totaly gone.

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