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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/3/2012 10:46:56 PM

sillyflower

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but he does not care.

What he dows is to maximise supply efficiency (his words) to speed up tempo. His AFV losses may be what you would expect for T9 but so are russuan losses. He will run his mobile forces into the ground to destroy soviet army utterly in '41 - and he's right to do so as he never has to face '42

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/3/2012 11:37:38 PM

Balou

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Good argument. But still, he can't fight his way with Inf Divs only. This Veterans-AAR will hopefully answer a question: can you burn your panzers like this and get away with it?

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 12:14:33 AM

Flaviusx

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Morale of the story: beware Australians bearing house rules. Make him play with the stock game and use every legitimate tactic available. Reserves, non cheesy paradrops, runaways, etc. And random weather.

Michael always tailors the house rules to his favor. Don't let him sucker you into fighting the war on his grounds. If he does, blame the guy you see in the mirror.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 12:52:22 AM

hfarrish

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Agreed - from my games and this AAR I find it pretty clear that a German player who really knows what he is doing can thrash the Soviet pretty thoroughly, and "no retreat" rules only serve to magnify this by 10. Glad Tarhunnas agreed to the rules though just because it will hopefully put a stop to all the "Soviet bias" whining.

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Post #: 124

RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 2:08:27 AM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

Agreed - from my games and this AAR I find it pretty clear that a German player who really knows what he is doing can thrash the Soviet pretty thoroughly, and "no retreat" rules only serve to magnify this by 10. Glad Tarhunnas agreed to the rules though just because it will hopefully put a stop to all the "Soviet bias" whining.

Yes, I suspect this game has finally proven a historical Soviet defence (at least until the Kiev disaster) will clearly lead the e-Red Army to the utter destruction. And that's what my guts were telling me. What the heck! Every single Soviet player knew this (even an intuition). They didn't run away without reason...

The question is what will Michael say when he will notice the nearest Soviet line (no rear-guards eh) is 15 hexes away his hordes. You're a chicken, Tarhunnas!

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 6/4/2012 2:10:33 AM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:02:04 AM

RCHarmon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Morale of the story: beware Australians bearing house rules. Make him play with the stock game and use every legitimate tactic available. Reserves, non cheesy paradrops, runaways, etc. And random weather.

Michael always tailors the house rules to his favor. Don't let him sucker you into fighting the war on his grounds. If he does, blame the guy you see in the mirror.

I think Michael T has the right to defend himself. A statement should not be made like this in a public forum that the accused doesn't have access to. This should be copied and presented to Michael T so he may provide a rebuttal. I think the author of this post should see to this. Or just edit the post and I will edit mine.

There has been a lot of discussion about a fight forward defense and I am sure many players are watching this to see how it plays out. The agreement is (to my understanding)that the Axis player will not withdraw during blizzard. Shouldn't we balance all the variables before coming to a conclusion?

I would prefer a Soviet fight forward defense, but I have wondered if it was possible without the troops usually lost in the Lvov pocket. Maybe this game will provide an answer.

< Message edited by RCH -- 6/4/2012 5:29:21 AM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:11:48 AM

gregorit

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Given the changes to MP costs for regimental units, does Michael T's opening even work any more? If not, it seems like a moot point to try to debate counters to his style. I'm also curious -- is his opening in the north DELIBERATELY below par? (It doesn't capture Riga nor does it breach the Divna.)

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 6:35:23 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Morale of the story: beware Australians bearing house rules. Make him play with the stock game and use every legitimate tactic available. Reserves, non cheesy paradrops, runaways, etc. And random weather.

Michael always tailors the house rules to his favor. Don't let him sucker you into fighting the war on his grounds. If he does, blame the guy you see in the mirror.

I think Michael T has the right to defend himself. A statement should not be made like this in a public forum that the accused doesn't have access to. This should be copied and presented to Michael T so he may provide a rebuttal. I think the author of this post should see to this. Or just edit the post and I will edit mine.

+1. And I have repeatedly said that I would have tried to fight forward even if there had been no "no runaway" agreement. I was not suckered, I simply overestimated the efficacy of a forward defense and found that a really good Axis player can demolish it.

It is unfair to slander Michael T in an AAR he cannot read. Read, the AAR, comment on game play, tactics and strategy, but do not cast doubts on the players.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 6:36:12 AM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gregorit

Given the changes to MP costs for regimental units, does Michael T's opening even work any more? If not, it seems like a moot point to try to debate counters to his style. I'm also curious -- is his opening in the north DELIBERATELY below par? (It doesn't capture Riga nor does it breach the Divna.)

It was started after that change, so yes, it does work!

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 9:35:16 AM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH
There has been a lot of discussion about a fight forward defense and I am sure many players are watching this to see how it plays out. The agreement is (to my understanding)that the Axis player will not withdraw during blizzard. Shouldn't we balance all the variables before coming to a conclusion?

I would prefer a Soviet fight forward defense, but I have wondered if it was possible without the troops usually lost in the Lvov pocket. Maybe this game will provide an answer.

I think the answer is evolving, and as far as I can judge this, it is going to be a clear no. It is only one AAR, though. But Michael has also made some mistakes, among them the one that got his AGS Panzer shut down for a turn by Tarhunnas "bear hug". I think in the next game, Michael would be a little more careful and less reckless, while I don't see much room to improve on Tarhunnas side. Both have been using the whole toolbox outside of house rules.

I was also hoping that this AAR could prove that the Soviets can suffer worse, but survive intact until blizzard, and see how badly Michael could get thrashed in return if the only step back his Germans made would be one by force. With the current blizzard rules, and a semi-intact Red Army, this Axis no-retreat houserule could be as detrimental as the Soviet one here (or worse, as reinforcements are more scarce for Axis), but it will probably never come to that since Tarhunnas might be too weak. We will see.

Regarding Axis unready tanks: I noticed substantial oscillations in this in the various AARs, the dice gods are probably very active in that area. But in my own experience the readiness will come up quickly again if you give them a month rest. After winter the Panzers surely ought to be in shape again, and before then it won't matter as long as he keeps Tarhunnas off-guard and running.

< Message edited by janh -- 6/4/2012 9:36:30 AM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 10:50:42 AM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Morale of the story: beware Australians bearing house rules. Make him play with the stock game and use every legitimate tactic available. Reserves, non cheesy paradrops, runaways, etc. And random weather.

Michael always tailors the house rules to his favor. Don't let him sucker you into fighting the war on his grounds. If he does, blame the guy you see in the mirror.

I think Michael T has the right to defend himself. A statement should not be made like this in a public forum that the accused doesn't have access to. This should be copied and presented to Michael T so he may provide a rebuttal. I think the author of this post should see to this. Or just edit the post and I will edit mine.

I agree. I have not seen him tailor/use house rules before. I do, however , think for him to expect a russian to agree to any that help the germans as unreasonable/unnecessary ( delete to preference) given the way he exploits supply rules per rules but beyond historical plausability

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 10:53:07 AM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

quote:

ORIGINAL: gregorit

Given the changes to MP costs for regimental units, does Michael T's opening even work any more? If not, it seems like a moot point to try to debate counters to his style. I'm also curious -- is his opening in the north DELIBERATELY below par? (It doesn't capture Riga nor does it breach the Divna.)

It was started after that change, so yes, it does work!

Given that Michael says he spends more time practising than playing, I have no doubt that every MP he spends is deliberate

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 12:50:14 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
I think the answer is evolving, and as far as I can judge this, it is going to be a clear no. It is only one AAR, though. But Michael has also made some mistakes, among them the one that got his AGS Panzer shut down for a turn by Tarhunnas "bear hug". I think in the next game, Michael would be a little more careful and less reckless, while I don't see much room to improve on Tarhunnas side. Both have been using the whole toolbox outside of house rules.

Michel T makes almost no mistakes, and the few ones he does are mostly inconsequential. As the Soviet in 1941, you live on the mistakes the Axis player does, and Michael T makes almost none at all. Every move seems carefully considered. I suspect he spends far more time than the average player on his turns. I would not describe him as careless at all, rather the opposite, very deliberate. If there is one weakness in his play, it is might be his avoidance of risks.

On my side there is certainly room for improvement I would say. I simply haven't been up against a German player that is as good as Michael T, and I have to improve some things in my play. Above all I have learnt that forward defense works, if the Axis player allows you, otherwise it can be very dangerous.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 3:08:48 PM

Balou

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

On my side there is certainly room for improvement I would say. I simply haven't been up against a German player that is as good as Michael T, and I have to improve some things in my play. Above all I have learnt that forward defense works, if the Axis player allows you, otherwise it can be very dangerous.

If he allows you. But you were forced to do so by the house rule you agreed to. Has your forward defense been really that deliberate ? I am curious to know about what improvements you think of.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 3:22:19 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

On my side there is certainly room for improvement I would say. I simply haven't been up against a German player that is as good as Michael T, and I have to improve some things in my play. Above all I have learnt that forward defense works, if the Axis player allows you, otherwise it can be very dangerous.

If he allows you. But you were forced to do so by the house rule you agreed to. Has your forward defense been really that deliberate ? I am curious to know about what improvements you think of.

What I mean is that forward defense works well against some Axis players and not against others. If the Axis player makes some mistakes or is just a little bit sloppy in pocketing or so, it gives the Soviet player the openings he needs. With no mistakes, a forward defense is much more difficult and outright dangerous, a little like playing with fire.

Overall, while I still believe in a forward defense, I might adapt it to be a little less forward than before, and as I noted above, less dependent on checkerboard and more on picket and MLR. I am not sure about the improvements yet, I am trying out some modifications in my other game against glvaca.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 3:51:43 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Morale of the story: beware Australians bearing house rules. Make him play with the stock game and use every legitimate tactic available. Reserves, non cheesy paradrops, runaways, etc. And random weather.

Michael always tailors the house rules to his favor. Don't let him sucker you into fighting the war on his grounds. If he does, blame the guy you see in the mirror.

I think Michael T has the right to defend himself. A statement should not be made like this in a public forum that the accused doesn't have access to. This should be copied and presented to Michael T so he may provide a rebuttal. I think the author of this post should see to this. Or just edit the post and I will edit mine.

I agree. I have not seen him tailor/use house rules before. I do, however , think for him to expect a russian to agree to any that help the germans as unreasonable/unnecessary ( delete to preference) given the way he exploits supply rules per rules but beyond historical plausability

Sillyflower...virtually every game I've seen him post opponents for has conditions which I regard as traps and unacceptable. He never plays it straight up, ever.

People need to stop being naive about this. If you're going to play him, insist on stock rules and random weather. Stop giving him handicaps...he hardly needs them, he ought to be handicapping his opponents. And this is what I don't get about him, he hardly seems interested at all in a competitive game, and particularly one that lasts into 1942.

Poor Tarhunnas here is playing with both hands tied behind his back. It's painful to watch, especially since half the things I'd do in his place cannot be done due to the game's baroque restrictions. So I'm reduced here to pleading players to stop being played for suckers. It's not just the runaway thing, either. Look at the way use of reserves has been neutered in this game. If you limit the amount of units that can be placed in a reserve to a low number, this will necessarily favor the German, due to leadership. The Soviet has to put lots of units in reserve in order to get any reactions at all.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/4/2012 4:13:53 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:06:23 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCH

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Morale of the story: beware Australians bearing house rules. Make him play with the stock game and use every legitimate tactic available. Reserves, non cheesy paradrops, runaways, etc. And random weather.

Michael always tailors the house rules to his favor. Don't let him sucker you into fighting the war on his grounds. If he does, blame the guy you see in the mirror.

I think Michael T has the right to defend himself. A statement should not be made like this in a public forum that the accused doesn't have access to. This should be copied and presented to Michael T so he may provide a rebuttal. I think the author of this post should see to this. Or just edit the post and I will edit mine.

I agree. I have not seen him tailor/use house rules before. I do, however , think for him to expect a russian to agree to any that help the germans as unreasonable/unnecessary ( delete to preference) given the way he exploits supply rules per rules but beyond historical plausability

I have seen it. What do you call it when a person says how you can use your paratroopers but will use muling in all its forms? IOWs, I can exploit the rules and you can't.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 6/4/2012 4:10:45 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:11:57 PM

Tarhunnas

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You are of course free to criticize Michael T, but it is manifestly unfair to do so in an AAR he shouldn't read! Please, this is my AAR! If you want to discuss Michael T and his house rules, it is my wish that you don't do it here, but in a thread he can read and respond to!

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:15:24 PM

Flaviusx

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Fair enough. I'm not saying anything here I haven't told him in public threads, however.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:50:08 PM

juret

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flaviux go play michael T, gets boring couse u always brings up the same points.

tarhunnas and MT made rules and agreed on em. the rules they agreed on are fair and between them.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 4:57:06 PM

Flaviusx

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I'd happily play him if he accepted my conditions as stated above. He will never do this. I refuse to play with his.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 5:00:26 PM

glvaca

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I'm not sure about the non-random weather. Certainly, the Sovs are really stressed without it. On the other hand, with 3 turns of mud in 1941, I think they have it too easy.
Something in between would carry my preference.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 5:12:50 PM

Flaviusx

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It doesn't necessarily mean 3 mud turns, Glvaca. Oddly enough, you can get multiple weather zones with mud in a single turn. I've had two zones hit with mud in the past at once, presumably all 3 at once is possible.

Also, timing is important. An early mud turn in the North zone is essentially a freebie for the Axis. Then again, a mud turn in south and central early on is pretty nasty.

Sometimes, the weather Gods hate you and refuse to cough up mud at all. That happened to me last time I played James.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 6:18:52 PM

notenome

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Prsonally I believe a forward defense is always possible, but it depends how you define it. If you create a scale, where on one side you have running to the dnepr with everything on turn 1, and sending everything to the frontline as the other extreme, both are stupid tactics. A forward defense to me means contesting the Axis advance and that is altogether a different proposition in each sector of the front.

For example: In the South the Soviets have three strong mechanized formations, one in Southern Front, one by the Dnepr and one near the Prypiat Marshes. Individual divisions of these formations have CV values of 6, which is something the Soviets aren't going to see again for the better part of a year. The problem is that most forward defending Soviet players use these formations to plug holes in the lines, where they inevitably get pocketed and can't bring their offensive potential to bear. In my mind the correct application of these formations is to be held in reserve, behind the MLR, being brought up to punch holes in pockets and then pulled back again. Once a hole is punched divisions in pockets should have their TOEs reduced and HQs stripped of their support assets, to reduce losses when the pocket is closed again.

Another example: A lot of divisions wind up in the swamps, where most players rail them out to feed western front. To me these units should be kept in the swamp, creating long flanks for the Axis. I actually feed units into the swamps and let the German player figure out how he's going to deal with them. Aside from favouring defense, swamps also burn through attacking mps at a prodigious rate, and because of the railroads the supply situation greatly favors the Soviets. Historically this strong northern flank forced the Axis advance southwards, forming the Uman pocket.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/4/2012 7:16:09 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome
Prsonally I believe a forward defense is always possible, but it depends how you define it.

Given that Michael has demanded this rule, I guess what matters is the definition accepted by him, don't you think? Well, as everyone knows Michael wrote many times about this issue (therefore this is no secret). What he clearly wants is the Soviet player doing what Red Army did in the real thing: bring forces forward and fight, in that order. If you don't do that you are avoiding the fight, and this, the Red Army never did it (millions were taken prisoners)...

Now if you want to play with words, definitions...

I don't give a flying f*** about the rules of this game. It's their problem, not mine. But I don't want people to reach the wrong conclusions

This would harm more than help.

I'm pretty certain the game (as it is) simply has failed at simulating the Blitzkrieg IF the Soviet player does what their counterparts did. So Michael is demanding the moon. The sooner this fact is accepted the better.

And by the way, I honestly think he is right to demand this suicide fight (as per history). If only he was not that selective...

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/5/2012 10:53:43 PM

Tarhunnas

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Turn 7

Things are getting worse and worse. I can't imagine how he can keep on pocketing turn after turn!

I certainly could never match it as the German! Really Michael T is an amazingly talented player. And all the pockets are perfectly planned with each unit in the optimum position to take advantage of terrain or protected by a standoff zone of axis-controlled hexes.

Map before Soviet moves.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/5/2012 10:54:01 PM >

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/5/2012 10:56:49 PM

Tarhunnas

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Here is an example of the mid-size pocket near Roslavl. Perfectly planned with the easternmost units protected by the river or in woods, and the axis-control-glacis in the southeast! Amazing! Note though that the CVs of the panzers are not really healthy.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/5/2012 10:59:32 PM

Tarhunnas

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Something which the heroic 4th Army under the inspired commad of Rodion Malinovski takes advantage of. A fierce attack from the northeast, the only weak spot, displaces not one but two panzer divisions in succession to bring relief to the trapped comrades in the pocket!

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/5/2012 11:01:38 PM

Tarhunnas

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In the north, another counterattack against a regiment breaks the pocket southwest of the Luga.

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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/5/2012 11:04:13 PM

Tarhunnas

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Here is the center after Soviet moves. The front I can scrape up is a sorry sight. I am staring utter defeat in the face.

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