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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please)

 
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RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/5/2012 11:07:03 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		In the south, some maneuvering and an attack on a Hungarian brigade breaks the pocket in two places, isolating the panzer spearhead. But my frontline is reduced to a weak screen. A breakthrough towards Kharkov is a distinct possibility, and I have not had time and/or rail cap to evacuate the place!

Map after Soviet moves.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/5/2012 11:08:37 PM >

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Post #: 151
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 1:38:40 PM   
Zonso

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 1/28/2011
Status: offline 		Michael T is a bloody machine, very impressive. He is clearly in a league of his own, making all average German players very humble indeed. I think the theory fostered by some that he stacks the deck is a hollow cry and doesn't negate how skilled a player he really is. Taking shots at Michael T here is a disservice to him and the community.

I'm curious now what the Red Army numbers are. I do agree with what you said earlier that certain play styles match up well and that you can fight forward against some opponents. I think that is an advantage of the game though I'm still of the opinion the tipping point for either side is too precarious and it seems once over there may be no coming back. We will see.

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Post #: 152
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 2:26:40 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 608
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		very strong turn by you Tarhunnas, you definetly made lemonade with that turn 7. That said I fear you may be making a mistake up north by defending to the west of the novgorod line.

Also this game totally has a Soviet bias.

< Message edited by notenome -- 6/6/2012 2:27:45 PM >

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Post #: 153
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 3:20:04 PM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

very strong turn by you Tarhunnas, you definetly made lemonade with that turn 7.



Thanks, but I think it is not enough. I have lost too much already!

quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

That said I fear you may be making a mistake up north by defending to the west of the novgorod line.



I think you are right. I won't be able to hold Leningrad anyway, so I should probably just cut my losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

Also this game totally has a Soviet bias.




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Post #: 154
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 4:43:34 PM   
Balou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think you are right. I won't be able to hold Leningrad anyway, so I should probably just cut my losses.



Am I right you think LGD definitively is lost ? If so, what arguments AGAINST GIVING IT UP NOW ? And I mean retire with everything that can move. We see a professional in pocketing who might grab Leningrad AND units. You can't move Leningrad, but units you can (of which you're short of everywhere else). Of course the Fins will be freed, but I am not so sure that any attempt to delay up north is worth the price.

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Post #: 155
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 4:45:54 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think you are right. I won't be able to hold Leningrad anyway, so I should probably just cut my losses.



Am I right you think LGD definitively is lost ? If so, what arguments AGAINST GIVING IT UP NOW ? And I mean retire with everything that can move. We see a professional in pocketing who might grab Leningrad AND units. You can't move Leningrad, but units you can (of which you're short of everywhere else). Of course the Fins will be freed, but I am not so sure that any attempt to delay up north is worth the price.


If I give it up too easily, that panzer group will go hunting somewhere else. So the trick is to strike a balance. Make him use as much force as possible while not losing too much.

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Post #: 156
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 4:57:25 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		I can't see anything covering the lower Volkhov river. If he's going for a LGD pocket, it could become a rather large one. And with low (?) fort levels, he's not going to need a lot of power from Pz/Mot Divs anyway.

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Post #: 157
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 5:16:37 PM   
hfarrish

 

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Is the industry out of Leningrad? One thing to consider is that trying to move a huge quantity of troops out now will drain the ability to evac industry - I tend to prefer doing a phased withdrawal rather than simply pulling up stakes and bugging out. This keeps him fighting to some extent up there, gets most of your men out and doesn't overtax the rails.

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Post #: 158
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 5:18:23 PM   
hfarrish

 

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Of course, it doesn't look like there is much up there period in terms of serious manpower...out of curiosity, Tarhunnas, why so many FZs on Leningrad? Seems like an awful lot of APs to give up for a city you would be unlikely to hold no matter who the opponent was...

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Post #: 159
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 5:20:38 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Both of you are probably right. And I have to correct myself, for Michael T is such a fox. He's very low on Pzs, so this whole LGD maneuver could easily be a feint in order to dislodge the Sovs from there almost for free.

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Post #: 160
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 5:52:26 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
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From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		The FZs in Leningrad are useful only to bring the fort level up to 3 and need other units with a high construction value (25+, check on the right hand side of the TOE screen) to get the job done. They do not do much by themselves.
Once an hex gets to Fort level 3 the FZ should be disbanded (it takes at least to Turn 14 to get to Level 4). A cheap way to save on evacuating troops would be to lower the max TOE to say 75%. That would prevent too many reinforcements to be sent to LGD but will keep the units in ready status. Also, refit only the LGD units with morale 45+. Merging depleted units is another option as space shrinks.

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Post #: 161
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 6:04:02 PM   
hfarrish

 

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Right...and unless you are really going to commit to defending the space I'm not sure they accomplish much, since they won't get far without units to be digging in tandem. That said I could be missing something.

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Post #: 162
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 6:09:32 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Of course, it doesn't look like there is much up there period in terms of serious manpower...out of curiosity, Tarhunnas, why so many FZs on Leningrad? Seems like an awful lot of APs to give up for a city you would be unlikely to hold no matter who the opponent was...


I usually try to hold the place, so I built them early, but in retrospect, they were probably a bad investment,

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Post #: 163
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 6:14:01 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Is the industry out of Leningrad? One thing to consider is that trying to move a huge quantity of troops out now will drain the ability to evac industry - I tend to prefer doing a phased withdrawal rather than simply pulling up stakes and bugging out. This keeps him fighting to some extent up there, gets most of your men out and doesn't overtax the rails.


The important industry is out. IIRC a few ARM left and the veichle factory and the BA factory.

I never use rails to bring troops out, I use rails to move troops to the front!

Seriously, moving troops, infantry anyway, is so cheap it hardly affects the rail cap.

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Post #: 164
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 6:27:36 PM   
governato

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Seriously, moving troops, infantry anyway, is so cheap it hardly affects the rail cap.



True! But once he gets close to the 'backdoor' then moving units in/out by rail will be difficult.

Btw, A FZ alone has a construction value of 15/turn. It takes 200 'Unmodified' Construction Points (possibly spread over a few turns) to go from Level 2 to Level 3. So a FZ needs additional units and SUs to dig.
A FZ +3 sapper Rgmts + 2 good IDs together have about 120-140 CPs. Then it'd take another ~ 8 turns to get to a level 4 FZ as it need 5 times more CPs (15.3.2.1).

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Post #: 165
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 6:51:48 PM   
Encircled


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From: Northern England
Status: offline 		I'm not sure that this is the place to have a go at Michael T, but the criticisms levelled by Flaviusx and Tullius are very valid.

Tarhunnas knows what he is doing, and he's being destroyed. He's tied by house rules that are completely in favour of the Germans in '41.

At the very least, you have to play with non-random weather to give the Russians a chance, especially with the complete logistical fantasy that is being used.

_____________________________


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Post #: 166
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 7:11:35 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Don't you think Tarhunnas did know what he was doing when accepting the rules ? I think he knew. And he accepted.

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Post #: 167
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 7:32:45 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
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From: Northern England
Status: offline 		If he accepted to debunk once and for all the theory that the Germans are biased against in this game, then fair play to him.

I think he thought that they wouldn't affect the game that much.

This game proves that its a killer for the Russians.

Whatever floats peoples boats, but its supposed to be a contest between two players, not a total massacre.



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Post #: 168
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 8:15:03 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Don't you think Tarhunnas did know what he was doing when accepting the rules ? I think he knew. And he accepted.


He thought he knew... Now he knows For all I care this should help the game so fair play.

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Post #: 169
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 8:20:00 PM   
Balou


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quote:

I think he thought that they wouldn't affect the game that much.


Maybe Tarhunnas could answer to that. Because I consider this AAR as one of the most interesting I've ever seen. 2 vets, a set of rules that largely forces the Sovs to do as their historical counterparts (copyright TD), and the Axis which does what they should/could have done.

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Post #: 170
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 10:17:03 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Is it not ironic that some people who are the most vocal about parts of the game that seem to favor the Soviets win, as the Axis, again and again?

Maybe it's just from that they spend so much time playing and study everything.

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Post #: 171
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 10:18:54 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Oh, its a fascinating AAR

Its going to be a rather short one I fear though!

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Post #: 172
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/6/2012 10:42:12 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

a set of rules that largely forces the Sovs to do as their historical counterparts (copyright TD), and the Axis which does what they should/could have done.


Eh!!?? Not sure you are really interested in improving the game I guess Michael T should have been appointed as Boss-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht... "Herr Hitler, step aside. Danke..."

Really sorry to hijack the AAR, Tarhunnas

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Post #: 173
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/7/2012 11:04:31 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 8. Map before Soviet moves.

My front is falling apart. Panzers are crashing through the lines everywhere. Michael T seems to have switched to a raiding strategy, quite rightly I would say, as the bulk of the Red Army has been destroyed. Kharkov is taken, as I feared, and Leningrad cut off.




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Post #: 174
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/7/2012 11:07:46 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		The pockets are looser now, and I can break most of them, but I am afraid it will only bring temporary relief. I get an opportunity to try out the nifty paradrop pocket closer to isolate his panzers and break the pocket (west of Orel). Map after Soviet moves.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/7/2012 11:08:06 PM >

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Post #: 175
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/7/2012 11:08:59 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Losses turn 8.




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Post #: 176
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II (No Michael T please) - 6/7/2012 11:09:39 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		OOB turn 8.




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Post #: 177
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/7/2012 11:17:11 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 3152
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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Michael T has offered for me to surrender. I will accept. We did say no quitting, so I was prepared to continue to a computer generated end, but I am happy to accept his offer. I see no way to turn this around.

Michael T is really an outstanding player! Hat off to my opponent! It is extremely embarrassing to have been utterly crushed in 8 turns! I think I will give this up and pick up croquet or something.

I have invited Michael T to comment on the AAR.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 178
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/7/2012 11:50:41 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		All due congrats to Michael T for an efficient conquest by a highly skilled player. That said, a lesser Axis player would have accomplished the same thing, just in a longer span of time. The isolation rules of WiTE does not allow the Red Army to fight a forward defense stategy. Anything along those lines is suicide, plain and simple. I was surprised when Flavius said he would not accept the rules as the Axis player because of the winter rules/conditions. I never felt the Soviet player would stand a chance to make it that far, or if he had his army would have been so gutted as to make an effective blizzard offensive all but impossible.

In any case, this doesn't take away from the fact that you're an excellent player too, Tarhunnas. Hats off for accepting the offer to act as human sacrifice in this grand experiment.

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Post #: 179
RE: The Great Patriotic AAR II - 6/8/2012 12:03:03 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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