RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 and balancing the game

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 and balancing the game

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/23/2012 6:10:19 PM

Aurelian

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I don't know why people think the best strategy for Russia is to run. In my first three games, I did exactly that. I lost all three.

Now, in my fourth game, I didn't run away. My opponent didn't do the Lvov, so I actually had units to fight with.

Running away gives the Axis lots of territory for nothing. Every hex Russia give away they have to fight to get back.

Running away does nothing to increase Russian experience.

It does nothing to help create Guards units.

But, if you have very little left after a Lvov, what choice do you have but to save what's left.

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Post #: 31

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/23/2012 9:31:18 PM

Rufus T. Firefly

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I am going to continue to beat the limited free setup drum.

The limited free setup can be thought of as a simulated reaction move as the Russians can place more units in the panzer's most likely lines of advance.

Of course this advantage needs to be offset by some house rules to limit running as well as the German limited free setup.

I think this gets us where we want to go without waiting for WITE 2.0 while at the same time allowing for more interesting variety in the game.

What's not to like??

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Chicolini: I've done it already. I've changed to the other side.
Firefly: What are you doing over here?
Chicolini: Well, the food is better

(in reply to Panzer Meyer)

Post #: 32

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 2:47:08 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufus T. Firefly
What's not to like??

I don't think it is as easy to define "running" as you think--what is "running" vs a "tactical withdrawal" vs "an advance in a rearward direction"? Tarhunnas' rules are too simplistic and don't work in my view. For instance to counter-attack or escape a pocket, Sov units would often have to move in directions other than East; it is hard enough to amass enough Sov units for a counter-attack as it is, if they have to pay double-MP to move any direction but east, forget it...

Plus, as others have pointed out, I'm not sure that the Germans should even complain if the Sovs run, it is not very clear if it is a winning Sov strategy in the first place.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 5/24/2012 2:49:55 AM >

(in reply to Rufus T. Firefly)

Post #: 33

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 3:20:54 AM

Aurelian

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Trading space for time was a valid, and historical, Russian tactic.

I'm sure Napoleon and Charles XII ranted about it too.

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Post #: 34

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 3:41:43 AM

Rufus T. Firefly

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Indeed, if you don't care about your citizens a strategic withdrawal is often an excellent strategy. Let the enemy wear himself out chasing you while his supply lines grow longer and ever more tenuous, while your army's supply chain gets shorter.

Unfortumately 20th century warfare is a lot harder on the populus than in Czar Alexander's time. Could it be politically tenible for even Stalin to pull a Kutusov and leave 10s of millions of citizens behind without trying to defend them?? I don't know.

Really, I'm personally not that upset about the Russian retreating issue. But I know others are, and by allowing the Russians a "better" setup, some balance has to be struck so to allow some significant possability of German outperformance in 1941. I agree that defining "Running" is very hard and not necessarily even desirable.

Personally, I would prefer some house rule to simulate Russian c&c chaos so that it is difficult for the Russians to put together a coherent defence for the first couple of turns.

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Post #: 35

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 4:00:01 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufus T. Firefly

Could it be politically tenible for even Stalin to pull a Kutusov and leave 10s of millions of citizens behind without trying to defend them?? I don't know.

As much as the destruction of the kulaks, forced collectivization, the purges, the number of those citizens in the gulags, the treatment of tens of thousands of returning POWs, the enactment of scorched earth, (yeah, like that benefited those citizens.) The deportation before, during, and after the war of about 3.3 million.

Yeah, I'm sure he was all broken up about them. He was far more brutal than any Tsar you know.

The Russians already suffer from the chaos of the first week. Why do you want to add to it.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 5/24/2012 4:08:45 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 4:22:29 AM

Rufus T. Firefly

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quote:

The Russians already suffer from the chaos of the first week. Why do you want to add to it.

Because a free setup will likely leave the Russians in a much better position at the end of the first German turn than they would be otherwise. I think this needs to be balanced out.

My primary objective is to add variety and the opportunity for greater creativity to game play, not to advance the fortunes of one side in preference to the other.

You could argue that the German free setup after seeing the Russian dispositions is enough to balance things, but I'm not so sure about that.

< Message edited by Rufus T. Firefly -- 5/24/2012 4:23:51 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 4:58:18 AM

randallw

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A free setup creates it's own problems, changing conditions from how things actually played out. It would give a free reign to the Soviets near the border, which they didn't have leading up to the first day of the war.

(in reply to Rufus T. Firefly)

Post #: 38

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 5:41:56 AM

Rufus T. Firefly

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quote:

A free setup creates it's own problems

Well, I guess any change is going to create other problems, its a matter of choosing you poison.

quote:

changing conditions from how things actually played out

Yes, that's exactly my point -why play the exact same opening over and over again? I like variety and a new challenge. Obviously if your preference is to try to recreate history as closely as possible this idea is not for you.

quote:

It would give a free reign to the Soviets near the border, which they didn't have leading up to the first day of the war.

Sorry, I'm not following you here. Is there some reason Stavka could not have stationed their army pretty much where they liked? Also don't forget that the Russians don't have any ability at all to react to the huge first turn German movement because of the nature of IGOUGO. A free set up partially makes up for that. "free reign" is a bit of an overstatement if you go back and look at the draft rules I offered up for this.

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Post #: 39

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 6:54:38 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufus T. Firefly
Personally, I would prefer some house rule to simulate Russian c&c chaos so that it is difficult for the Russians to put together a coherent defence for the first couple of turns.

I agree that the C&C chaos should be simulated, but think it would be very difficult to do with a house rule, it's got to be programmed...

(in reply to Rufus T. Firefly)

Post #: 40

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 7:06:14 AM

Don77

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What, programmed chaos?

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Post #: 41

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 7:10:40 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don77
What, programmed chaos?

Partially-randomly generated chaos as per appropriate computer code, if you prefer...

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Post #: 42

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 7:52:48 AM

Aurelian

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So how would one enforce this "runaway" house rule?

Especially as what one would call a runaway another would call a retreat.

The only runaways I see is when a unit routs.

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 10:24:59 AM

janh

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You guys are pretty much on the mark regarding the difference between retreats, withdrawals, tactical regrouping, or a true Sir Robin. There is plenty of grey space there, and plenty of room for a mud fight. The best thing is probably to pick PBEM opponents that will judge such issues within reason and not drag you into arguments. After all a game is supposed to be fun, no matter who wins, or whether a few units just escape a German pocket or a Soviet blizzard assault.

Nonetheless I am curious how Tarhunnas game will look like by summer 42; and especially see whether avoiding the Soviet Sir Robin is indeed allowing him to take Berlin in the end, or whether fighting forwards will only make his situation worse. It could be the latter, but maybe it will be offset by the rule disallowing the Germans to retreat in winter.

PS. The idea of a random setup turn for both sides is intriguing, I recall some older game that had it. I wouldn't underestimate the consequences for this freedom on the German side, some nasty ideas would come to mind. Technically, I don't think you can do it for both sides with the editor since the 2nd player would see the 1st ones setup. On the other hand, the German setup was only in part governed by the previous operations in Yugos and Greece, the preceding security mission to Ploesti and Hungary, and the tight rail schedule for deploying units just in time to the "alledged" new training grounds in Poland. The other part of the deployment was governed by the setup of the Russian units, which was to a good degree known to the Germans. For example they expected the toughest resistance in the fight for the Ukranian grain basin, knowing that some of the better formations were in the south.
So certainly the German should know a little bit about the Soviet dispositions when deploying, but how much? And also, how much did the Soviets know? Maybe this would be another good suggestion for the WitE2 wishlist, but perhaps allowing the Soviet a handful of short-legged redeployments by editor prior to start would be a fair offer as a short term solution against a standard Lvov?

< Message edited by janh -- 5/24/2012 10:34:52 AM >

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Post #: 44

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 1:04:35 PM

Encircled

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As a Soviet player, you fight where you can

You only run away when its close to disaster

Judging when to hang around and when to go is the real test of a Soviet player in '41

And you only run to the limit of German infantry movement. You want to fight Panzers all the time if you can.

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 1:22:27 PM

Tarhunnas

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Another possible idea to encourage forward fighting by the Sovs would be to increase the Stalin Line fortifications to level 3. Level 2 is too flimsy after the fort nerf. I must admit though, I have little idea how extensive the Stalin Line was.

BTW the Stalin Line at level 2 will melt away if not occupied, and realistically that seems odd, since some forts are unoccupied and have presumably been so for a year or so, so why haven't they melted away before the game even starts? Perhaps all the fortified hexes that are the Stalin line should have a (weak understrength?) FZ on them?

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Post #: 46

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 1:35:42 PM

76mm

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As far as I know based on limited reading on the topic, the Stalin line had been largely stripped of weapons, etc. before Barbarossa; from what I recall, it did not sound like much of an obatacle.

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Post #: 47

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 1:41:27 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don77
What, programmed chaos?

Partially-randomly generated chaos as per appropriate computer code, if you prefer...

A nice way of simulating Soviet confusion on turn 1 would be to give all German units the lowest possible spotting level, and prohibit all Soviet Air Recon. Without Air Recon, you would tend to bump into things completely unexpectedly as the Soviet, which would probably be eminently realistic. I guess this wouldn't be too hard to implement.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 48

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 1:46:19 PM

Klydon

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@ Tarhunnas: I like the idea of a FZ on the Stalin line forts. They are sort of push overs, but will hold the exisiting fortifications in place. Overall, the Stalin line was not a serious obstical to the advance.

I think if you give both sides free setup, it should benefit the Russians the most from the standpoint that their initial setup was so bad. However, with the first turn surprise rules, etc I don't know that it matters a lot. In addition, I would assume most German players will assign some AGC panzer units to the south to give them more punch on the opening turn while possibly reassigning some of the frozen PG1 units to act as follow up units in AGC. As usual, the devil is in the details in terms of what are the rules with "free setup" for both sides. Most important is how far back do you go and how far back do you let the Russians set up from the border areas?

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 4:35:58 PM

Panzer Meyer

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Perhaps a change to the way that industrial evacuations are handled could give the Russian player an incentive to fight forward more often. For example a rule could be instituted that industry cannot be evacuated from a city until Axis forces are within 'X' hexes. As mentioned by other posters the difference between tactical and strategic withdrawals can be murky. I think this would be a more elegant solution than further hampering Soviet movement capabilities.

EDIT: If such a rule already exists, please forgive my ignorance as I have not studied the manual as closely as many on these forums undoubtedly have.

< Message edited by Panzer Meyer -- 5/24/2012 4:40:18 PM >

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 5:37:32 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer
For example a rule could be instituted that industry cannot be evacuated from a city until Axis forces are within 'X' hexes. As mentioned by other posters the difference between tactical and strategic withdrawals can be murky. I think this would be a more elegant solution than further hampering Soviet movement capabilities.

I appreciate your efforts to think of a creative solution to this thorny issue, but this one doesn't work unless the x > 20, in which case it would be sort of useless. I think we've had enough panzer raiding in this game, this proposal would lead to a panzer raid frenzy.

(in reply to Panzer Meyer)

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 7:11:39 PM

Rufus T. Firefly

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@janh

quote:

I don't think you can do it for both sides with the editor since the 2nd player would see the 1st ones setup

True, but this is no different from the current situation. It could be an interesting thing if it was programmed into WITE 2 to allow for a no peak setup.

@ Tarhunnas

quote:

A nice way of simulating Soviet confusion on turn 1 would be to give all German units the lowest possible spotting level, and prohibit all Soviet Air Recon

I like this idea. It sounds simple to implement. The no air recon could be a house rule.

@Klydon

quote:

As usual, the devil is in the details in terms of what are the rules with "free setup" for both sides. Most important is how far back do you go and how far back do you let the Russians set up from the border areas?

The draft rules I'm working with (see link to my earlier post farther back in this thread) allow only extremely limited redeployment farther from the border than the default setup. Mostly movement is only allowed at the same distance or moving closer to the border (for the Russians, opposite for the Germans). Even movement parallel to the border has limits on it. Interestingly, when I experimented with the Russian depolyment I actually ended up moving quite a few units closer to the border in my enthusiasm to see if I could plug all the holes. This will probably be a mistake.

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/24/2012 10:02:05 PM

Panzer Meyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer Meyer
For example a rule could be instituted that industry cannot be evacuated from a city until Axis forces are within 'X' hexes. As mentioned by other posters the difference between tactical and strategic withdrawals can be murky. I think this would be a more elegant solution than further hampering Soviet movement capabilities.

I appreciate your efforts to think of a creative solution to this thorny issue, but this one doesn't work unless the x > 20, in which case it would be sort of useless. I think we've had enough panzer raiding in this game, this proposal would lead to a panzer raid frenzy.

I think we can all agree that a panzer division driving into and out of a city hex in one turn should not result in all of its factories being destroyed. It's definitely a gamey move. If anything they should remain intact, and the Russians should be able to evacuate them if they recapture the city.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 53

RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/25/2012 8:43:30 AM

cpt flam

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even with that you will face another problem
if i'm right during 41 Russia can nt repair rail closer then 5 hexes from ennemy
so a raid by a panzer/moto will creeple the city even if industry is not destroyed immediatly

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/27/2012 8:32:41 AM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

So, you can imagine an axis player winning (not a 1945 draw) without Lvov ?

Surely a 1945 'draw' IS a win for the Axis...? If you keep the Soviet army out of Germany I would count that as a huge achievement in any east front game that's been designed to match the historical conditions.

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/27/2012 9:26:10 AM

vinnie71

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But correct me if I'm wrong. Don't the Soviets get back all the destroyed units in November '41? Frankly that is the most crucial time in the game, when the Germans are at the last gasp, with the Soviets looking forward to their blizzard offensive. Frankly, the Axis side does not gain much by destroying the Soviet Southern forces because they still have to roll over the (sometimes) empty expanses and that costs time, fatigue and losses all the same. Also by penetrating deep in the south the Axis are essentially exposing themselves for the inevitable counterattack.

Furthermore, most Soviet players would try to adopt a good strategy in the sense that they would opt to defend coherent lines and I would guess use the Dniepr as a final stop line. This would not be totally historical either since the many counterattacks were local in nature happening either through chance or because the commanders, both local and high up, thought that they percieved a good chance. So basically it is a trade off.

Frankly by defending close to the Pripet Marshes, any soviet player can slow down the German juggernaut. And there are suffiecient forces outside the Lvov pocket that can be used to slow down the Germans

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/27/2012 6:37:09 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

So, you can imagine an axis player winning (not a 1945 draw) without Lvov ?

Surely a 1945 'draw' IS a win for the Axis...? If you keep the Soviet army out of Germany I would count that as a huge achievement in any east front game that's been designed to match the historical conditions.

Certainly they do better than history if they do that. Something the disgruntled few don't consider.

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/27/2012 6:49:42 PM

Tarhunnas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

But correct me if I'm wrong. Don't the Soviets get back all the destroyed units in November '41?

Yes you are wrong!

Units destroyed prior to november come back, but 4-27 turns after being destroyed, not necessarily in november. And only the units, not the men and guns in them.

(in reply to vinnie71)

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RE: Stopping the Lvov pocket, getting a better turn 1 a... - 5/28/2012 1:16:54 AM

Hermann

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The key weakness of the german player is the armor, in the initial phases most german players toss em around like gangbusters without realising the soviet player can use the soft symbol function to track supply status. Air resupply defaults to fuel unless its done manually. Their key role is using movement to create movement paths for infantry and when used in an attack role they run out of ammo very fast. its critical to engage them constanly when theyre unsupported.

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