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A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix

 
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A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/1/2012 2:44:08 PM   
Beag

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2012
Status: offline 		I´m talking about how peace deals are handled by the AI.

The classic example - suppose you have 5k military strength and they 15k (Let´s suppose the AI also has larger GDP, through that doesn´t really matter dor this example). Despite all the AI shortcomings it could probably crush the player easily (specially because from my experience, at least in early game if the AI has larger military score it means one thing - it got more abandoned ships than you, and we all know what happens when a cruiser with phaser lances or titan beams engages one of yours with crappy blasters).

What happens, however? If you declare war and get a colony ot two before the AI can react, if you ask peace, they will usually accept AND for a small amount of cash. It´s totally silly, it would be as if the US accepted peace with Japan after Pearl Harbour and conquering the Phillipines. Was the battle lost? Yes. Is the war lost? Definitedly NO. As it is, it´s too easy to dismantle an empire little by little, by doing blitz wars and a fast peace.

So, for considering peace costs (and as a matter of fact, even if it should accept peace), I suggest that military strength value and war weariness should be the critical factors, and not a recent victory for the player as it is now. Want peace? Kill some ships and make them tired of war until you got the upper hand. It would also be an incentive to play governments with lower war weariness (because honestly, despotism and feudalism only handicap the player/AI).
Post #: 1
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/1/2012 2:47:00 PM   
Data


Posts: 3909
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline 		Completly agree with this one

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...Igniting stellar cores....Recharging reactors...Recalibrating hyperdrives....

(in reply to Beag)
Post #: 2
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/1/2012 2:54:23 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline 		That's so weird. I never had less military strength than the AI, making repairs and finding the supply zones a priority. So I always had sufficient firepower to blast ALL the empires to ashes if so inclined. Hint : the firepower per unit area of the Death Ray is great for conquering spaceports, but not hordes of destroyers. For their miserable destroyer fleets what you want is missile armed carriers set to standoff, and keep an eye on the fight to always attack the closest ship to your carriers.

Lonnie Courtney Clay
p.s. current game year 7, my firepower 110k and greatest other military is guardians, with most empires under 5k.
hint : explorers with long range scanners or better yet ultra long range should check gas clouds and supernovas/black holes to find the supply zones and test sites. Alternatively, you can trade tech for cash and buy locations from pirates.

_____________________________

Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to Beag)
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RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/1/2012 3:50:29 PM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeeves
That's so weird. I never had less military strength than the AI, making repairs and finding the supply zones a priority.

Unfortunately, that's not really the problem. The point is that there appears to be a failing in the AI assessment of whether it should continue a war or not. It makes sense that the AI should weigh its war weariness, relative military strength, and the opposing empire's reputation in all its diplomatic relations, especially the question of warfare.

(in reply to Jeeves)
Post #: 4
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/1/2012 6:22:36 PM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		Well, on that note, the AI also has a problem with the opposite. I've had a stronger AI, in terms of his military power, continuously lose battles and planets and not give up because it "thinks" it can win.

So, I think this problem is a little more complex than it seems.

(in reply to Bebop Cola)
Post #: 5
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/2/2012 12:58:40 AM   
Beag

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2012
Status: offline 		Sure, there are few more thorny issues in AI programming than defining when it should keep fighting and when it should eat humble pie. If it´s too passive, then the issue of dismantling the enemy piece by piece is even worse, if it´s too agressive it can overextend itself and be wrecked by the player or even worse, a two-front war.

But my issue is with the particular issue of a undeniably superior AI folding to a player just because of a broken "war score" system. If it has better tech, more GDP, more military strength, it should press instead of accepting peace for 5000 credits. On the other hand I can attest that the AI can be vicious when winning. On my first game with Hard difficulty I was sandwiched between Boskara and another douchebag insect race, fought a 2 front war (they made an alliance) and was badly spanked (one of the key reasons: the bloody flies had THREE captured cruisers and twice my strength...). I´d gladly accept peace, if the price wasn´t 360 million credits... Had to resign on that one

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Post #: 6
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/2/2012 6:01:44 AM   
MartialDoctor


Posts: 388
Joined: 3/7/2011
Status: offline 		But how does the AI figure out when it is "undeniably superior"? Better tech, more GDP, and more military strength definitely does not if they are losing battles and losing planets.

You're particular scenario may be different, though, as you can probably just snuck in and took a couple of planets quickly. The AI shouldn't be fooled into that one hehe.

My point is just that it's more tricky since the AI needs to take more into account.

My problem concerning wars is that the AI can't seem to tell when it needs to start begging for peace (and it doesn't beg for peace either... by means of offering techs, money, or planets to soothe the player). It tends to be more suicidal. Which is the opposite of the problem you are having

(in reply to Beag)
Post #: 7
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/4/2012 3:58:43 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		I still think we need a 'hurl veiled insult' diplomatic option for when you want to goad an empire into declaring war on you without actually going out and attacking stuff.

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Post #: 8
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/4/2012 5:27:51 PM   
rogerbacon51

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 10/29/2009
Status: offline 		I'd like to be able to offer mining rights for mining rights. In other words, I'll give mining rights in my space if they give mining rights in their space. Currently the only option is to give mining rights-- unless its implied that they recipricate, which I am not assuming.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 9
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/5/2012 3:27:52 AM   
jpwrunyan


Posts: 558
Joined: 12/3/2011
From: Uranus
Status: offline 		What if you dont have enough money to offer the ai for peace? Just offer subjugation instead and they automatically accept.
There is no AI here. The game just automatically concedes to a cease fire.
How many times do we need to complain about this until something is done?
Why are low hanging fruit like this not fixed?
Arg! The rage! It burns!

(in reply to rogerbacon51)
Post #: 10
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/5/2012 2:41:24 PM   
Jeeves


Posts: 940
Joined: 9/28/2010
From: Arlington TN U.S.A
Status: offline
quote:

Arg! The rage! It burns!


Got that itching, burning sensation? Try Preparation H!

Lonnie Courtney Clay
p.s. Sorry, couldn't resist.

_____________________________

Live long and prosper!

Lonnie Courtney Clay

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 11
RE: A small but VERY needed diplomatic fix - 6/5/2012 4:53:56 PM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan
What if you dont have enough money to offer the ai for peace? Just offer subjugation instead and they automatically accept.

Personally, I'm not sure the problem is that the AI accepts the subjugation treaty, but that the subjugation status doesn't really have any teeth. Roleplaying aside, What does it matter if you, the player, are "subjugated" by an enemy empire? You can still pretty much do everything you normally can, right?

Now if the subjugation arrangement had some manner of teeth such that it was fairly undesirable to accept that arrangement it might be different. Maybe in addition to transferring all of your accumulated tech advances to the dominant empire you're required to maintain troop garrisons on all your planets. Should you elect to rebel, a certain percentage of those garrisons flip loyalties, resulting in an automatic invasion force on all your planets. On top of that, you have a cap on your overall military strength and a certain percentage of your fleet might flip loyalties as well.

In other words, you're paying to maintain a police and monitoring force loyal to the dominant empire. If you planned to break free of the subjugation you might be able to build up a relatively small force of troops loaded onto some transports, as well as either a small fleet of weaker ships or a few powerful ships. Assuming these ships aren't amongst those that flip loyalties, these would be the forces you would need to use to take back your empire should you rebel against the foreign power you previously surrendered to. You'd need to deploy these troops immediately on some planet(s) in order to reinforce your loyal garrisons and/or citizen militias in order to retain some colonies after your rebellion, or lose the game immediately as a result of losing all of your colonies.

(in reply to jpwrunyan)
Post #: 12
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