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RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 5:47:02 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I hope you won't consider me contrarian or disagreeable in saying that I really don't like that movie.  The book is sublime; the movie...I give it very low marks.

The book may be the finest of its genre in the english language. Losing a conflict helps with introspection I suspect. I think the expectations set by the book would have been nearly impossible to meet, thus leading to disappointment.
Mike

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 61
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 5:49:40 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
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From: Austin / Brisbane
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 

Reading about Chickamauga always made me wonder how Bragg and Hood got the two largest bases in the U.S. Army (in terms of troops) named after them :-)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 62
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 6:03:02 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Hood did fine there, so I'm not sure what you mean.  Hood was an very good brigade and division commander.  His trouble came after he suffered grevious wounds to an arm and a leg two months apart (July 1863 at Gettsburg and September 1863 at Chickamauga).  Given command of an army in mid 1864, he was expected to attack and he did with disastrous results.  There is some speculation that his decison-making was impaired by laudanum used in the aftermath of his wounds.  But Hood served bravely and capably for most of the war and is man worthy of honor.

Bragg sincerlely served the South and he served honorably, but he was a complete and utter disaster.

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 63
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 7:00:23 PM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 586
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		Although I have long admired the military skills of some of the Confederate leaders when i think of Chickamauga I think
of George Thomas, himself a Southerner by birth, and the piece of work he put in there. A "Rock" indeed.
Sometimes when I ponder such things I question the responsibility of the Confederate military leadership.
When it became evident that the war was lost and the territorial integrity of the Confederacy could no longer be preserved
I wonder if they fought on as so many did before and after for reasons of pride alone.
The suffering visited upon their countrymen and their country on both sides was at its worst after the chance of Southern victory
had clearly passed. The fighting continued when some people with foresight might have packed it in for the greater good.
As happened in so many conflicts in the past and has simply been glossed over because it doesn't make for excitement
is the fact that a very large minority on both sides were emotionally uncommitted to either side and just wanted the war to be over.

_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 64
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 7:08:11 PM   
Skyros


Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline 		Antietem is a well preserved site that just needs a little more work. Especially on the battlefield signage. Very compact battlefield.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, Chckamauga, Shiloh, Bull Run and Appomattox Courthouse are peaceful and spectacular.



_____________________________


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Post #: 65
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 6/30/2012 7:48:39 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hood did fine there, so I'm not sure what you mean.  Hood was an very good brigade and division commander.  His trouble came after he suffered grevious wounds to an arm and a leg two months apart (July 1863 at Gettsburg and September 1863 at Chickamauga).  Given command of an army in mid 1864, he was expected to attack and he did with disastrous results.  There is some speculation that his decison-making was impaired by laudanum used in the aftermath of his wounds.  But Hood served bravely and capably for most of the war and is man worthy of honor.

Bragg sincerlely served the South and he served honorably, but he was a complete and utter disaster.

I was really just joking about Hood. He was, as you note, a superb bridade and division commander during the first two years of the war, and his late war performance was probably compromised for a variety of reasons. But Bragg? I also find it amusing how the leadership of the two bases both tell me they are the largest when I visit.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 66
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/1/2012 12:44:55 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 


The Maps of Chickamauga: An Atlas of the Chickamauga Campaign, Including the Tullahoma Operations, June 22 - September 23, 1863 by David Powell is supposed to be an excellent reference as well.

David is also a regular on the ACW sections of the ConSimWorld forums.



_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 67
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/1/2012 1:54:04 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 


The Maps of Chickamauga: An Atlas of the Chickamauga Campaign, Including the Tullahoma Operations, June 22 - September 23, 1863 by David Powell is supposed to be an excellent reference as well.

David is also a regular on the ACW sections of the ConSimWorld forums.





IIRC Powell was also one of the designers of The Gamers Civil War Brigade Series and the Regimental Sub Series.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 68
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/1/2012 1:56:13 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

IIRC Powell was also one of the designers of The Gamers Civil War Brigade Series and the Regimental Sub Series.


Indeed he is.

There is nothing like designing a simulation (computer, game, etc) to build up a very indepth knowledge of a topic.

Simulations have a very disconcerting habit of exposing deficiencies in your knowledge/assumptions (as they are intended to do) by producing unrealistic outputs. Books on the other hand merely have to withstand review by others who may or may not have greater knowledge and prejudices that are otherwise untested.





< Message edited by Reg -- 7/1/2012 2:07:09 AM >

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 69
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/1/2012 2:46:57 PM   
cplprice

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 7/8/2011
From: Chickamauga GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That's easy!  This Terrible Sound by Peter Cozzens is the second finest piece of non fiction that I have read.  Just a stunning piece of writing, especially for those who have visited Chickamauga battlefield. 


The Maps of Chickamauga: An Atlas of the Chickamauga Campaign, Including the Tullahoma Operations, June 22 - September 23, 1863 by David Powell is supposed to be an excellent reference as well.

David is also a regular on the ACW sections of the ConSimWorld forums.




Actually Hood's wounding at Chickamauga probably cost Bragg's army a stunning victory. Hood was coordinating the breakthrough and the Union Army was being systematically routed. On the ridge facing where Hood was shot, the confederates captured more Federal guns in a single action than in any other Civil War engagement. Sheridan had been driven from the field and didn't manage to rally until he was several miles from the battle. During this crucial moment Longstreet stops and picnics on sweet potatoes, but Hood's doing a fine job. Hood is wounded and goes down. The Confederate assaults then become piecemeal instead of coordinated. Thomas is trying to form a defensive line from the fragments of units on the Snodgrass Hill/Horseshoe Ridge area. If the confederates strike him with a coordinated assault it's over. There is no confederate General to coordinate it because Longstreet is MIA. They do launch a number of vicious assaults but with different brigades at different points, at different times, and they come very close to
finishing the job. When Longstreet returns to the action, Thomas has assembled sufficient strength that the window of opportunity has passed and now driving him from his position is a much tougher proposition.
As to overall victory for the south, if the Army of the Cumberland had been destroyed here, as very nearly happened, the North would have lost at least a years worth of gains. Sherman's Atlanta campaign would have been unfeasible and Sherman's capture of Atlanta insured Lincoln's re-election. If Lincoln had not been re-elected a negotiated peace is a real possibility.

The reason southern Generals continued to fight long after it was obvious that the war was lost is because of the United States long history of the military being subservient to the political leadership. Until the political leaders decide to cease hostilities it is an officers duty and obligation to continue to fight so long as they have the means to resist. Had the tables been turned the Union Generals would have done the same, it is what their duty requires.

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 70
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/2/2012 1:52:33 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Drats!  Your post requires thought.  Now that you mention it, Longstreet didn't seem to be too active during the breakthrough against the Union right on the battle's second day.  My first thought is this: Hood had immediate command of the divisions slated for the attack that broke through.  But didn't Longstreet command the entire left wing of the Confederate Army, which included not only Hood's spearhead, but also troops further to the left, which would have (I think) included Buckner's and some other diviions?  IE, wasn't it Longstreet's responsibility to hang further back and attend to the entire situation?  Had he gone forward to be in position to attend to Hood's attack, he might not have been in position to deal with his full responsibiility on the battlefield.  That's my first guess, but I'll have to look into it.

P.S.  The right wing was commanded by D.H. Hill. 

(in reply to cplprice)
Post #: 71
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/2/2012 2:02:11 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		He had the Wing.

Dan hooked me up to Cozzen's superb work. I heartily recommend the very balanced and illuminating Valley Campaign book he wrote recently. SUPERB!

Bragg was horrific. Wonder what Beauregard might have been able to do?


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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 72
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/2/2012 2:41:12 AM   
danlongman

 

Posts: 586
Joined: 3/27/2012
From: Over the hills and far away
Status: offline 		I do not doubt the United States military has a long tradition of subservience to the political leadership. I do not know just how
well it was established in the mid 19th century. The leadership on the Confederate side had very recently made some personal
political decisions as can be indicated by which side Thomas was on. They kinda abandoned the US Army for the Army of the Confederacy.
I was wondering along the lines of Lee's comment at Fredricksberg about enjoying war too much. At the end of the war some
fostered the lost cause sentiment while others were quite vocal about never having had a chance. Upon studying some of the history
a person may have cause to wonder just whose side Bragg or McClelland were really on....
cheers

_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 73
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/2/2012 3:02:53 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		If not for RE Lee's heroic decision to take a Loyalty Oath directly after the war who knows what might have happened with a form of guerilla Southern resistance.


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

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Post #: 74
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/10/2012 6:23:05 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cplprice
...During this crucial moment Longstreet stops and picnics on sweet potatoes, but Hood's doing a fine job. Hood is wounded and goes down. The Confederate assaults then become piecemeal instead of coordinated....



I've been following up on this line of thought, reading various accounts of the battle's second day. From what I've seen thus far, Longstreet performed well.

As we noted, Longstreet had command of the left wing of the Confederate army on Sept. 20. The right flank of his wing was the massive attack against the Union position at the Brotherton farm. In addition to his responsibilities there, Longstreet also had under his command Buckner's Corps further to the left.

After the Confederate attack pierced the Union MLR and wrought havoc on the Union center and right, Longstreet continued to command near the front lines. I read an account last night by an officer in an Alabama regiment that was in the Army of Tennessee, not Army of Northern Virginia, and he came across Longstreet near the front lines in conference with Buckner. The Alabamian noted that Longstreet didn't even seem to flinch as bullets and shells whizzed by.

I'm still looking into where Longstreet was on the 20th during the route of the Union right and the subsequent "last stand by Thomas" at Snodgrass Hill, but thus far it doesn't seem that Longstreet merited criticixm for his performance that day.

(in reply to cplprice)
Post #: 75
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/10/2012 6:26:39 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		On a separate note, have you ever thought of it from this perspective:  On July 3, 1863, Longstreet was (most reluctantly) in overall command of Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.  Just ten weeks later he's in command of a charge almost as massive at Chickamauga.  I've never read or heard that Longstreet exhibited any reluctance at Chickamauga, but I wonder exactly how he felt?*

*I suspect he was gung ho. He had lobbied hard to reinforce the "west" with troops from the "east," so I think Longstreet would have been anxious to attack Rosecrans that day. Still, he must've cringed at how many men would die, not knowing that Rosecrans had just pulled a division out of the line right where Longstreet's Chrage was going.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/10/2012 6:32:53 PM >

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Post #: 76
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/10/2012 8:00:30 PM   
US87891

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline 		-

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 77
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/14/2012 6:54:30 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Gents,

In the next three frames, I want to share with you three poems I've been working on about the Battle of Chickamauga. I'd appreciate your comments, but first a few notes of my own.

Until a few weeks ago, I was of the opinion that I was not born with the gift of poetry. (To me, poetry is the highest level of writing and, with some exceptions, cannot be learned. Ya either has it or ya don't.) During a remarkable tour of the battlefield in the company of an elderly poet, though, something prodded me to try my hand at writing some poems.

I think the poems are decent, but that may due to a case of myopia all of us AE players can relate to ("Hey, my plan to invade the Kuriles is magnificent. I'm going to blow the socks off my opponent. This is awesome....oops, what just went wrong?") It is possible that my best efforts are bad, insipid or (perhaps most damning) filled with trite phrases.

Before I go forth touting myself as a budding Civil War poet, I need some honest feedback from learned readers. So, with some apprehension, I herewith unrobe and reveal my works publicly.

Sincerely,

Canoerebel

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 78
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/14/2012 6:56:49 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		(By Dan Roper)

Home Again
 
A galling fire echoes long
through glade of oak and hickory.
A field of corn stands withered brown.
The home-place door and windows yawn.
 
When two years past he cast aside
a calling to his native soil
and with his comrades joined then,
to staunch as one the martial tide.
 
Then by chance he returns
to farm and field he calls home.
None step forth to welcome him,
except a foe by whom he falls.
 
He rests there in the shadows dim,
where even wren dares not sing;
‘Til battle’s end and silence falls
and comrades find and bury him.
 
 
The only known grave remaining on the Chickamauga battlefield is that of Confederate private John Ingraham.  After Ingraham was killed in action on the evening of 19 September 1863, his friends buried his remains where he fell.  (The other corpses were recovered and moved to various cemeteries.)  Ingraham served in the First Confederate Regiment, Georgia Reserves, and was a native of the Chickamauga area.  

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 79
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/14/2012 6:58:27 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		(By Dan Roper)

The Fatal Order of the Day
 
A line unbroken, long and grim
In blue upon a ridge crest strong
None could break the tri-cord strand
Until a fatal order penned
 
Leave the line and move along
To plug a gap (that wasn’t there)
So the errant missive read
The fatal order of the day
 
An officer in disbelief
Gripped the paper in his hand
He dared not leave to carry forth
This fateful order of the day.
 
Then bowing to obedience
He drew 3,000 from the line
And doom by chance found the place
The order fatal had bequeathed  
 
None stepped in to fill the breach
Before the gray came surging through
Fall back then route occasioned by
The fatal order of the day
 
 
Before noon, 20 September 1863, Brigadier General Thomas J. Wood received an order to pull his division from the Union line of battle.  Wood knew the move was ill advised as it would create a gaping, undefended hole in proximity to the Confederate line.  When handed the order to remove his division, Wood digested its significance and said, “I hold the fatal order of the day in my hand.” Despite his misgivings, he elected to carry out the order, in part because just that morning he had received a humiliating rebuke for failing to punctually comply with another order.
 
As fate would have it a massed Confederate assault hit that very point in the Union line right after most of Wood’s division vacated the line.  The Union position shattered.  In the ensuing route, only the determined stand at Snodgrass Hill by part of the Union army prevented complete disaster. 

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 80
RE: OT: Chickamauga Soujourn - 7/14/2012 7:00:34 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		(By Dan Roper)

York's Georgia Battery 1 Gun
 
Smoke and thunder
wreath the bronze
hilltop sentinel
York's single gun
 
Crouched to fire
against the foe
whose broken ranks
seek the sun
 
 
On September 20, 1863, York's Georgia Battery supported Longstreet's breakout through the center of the Union lines at the Battle of Chickamauga. The battery of four guns advanced with the gray infantry as it pursued shattered elements of the federal army and then fought off attacks against its own flank. One gun of the battery was detailed to occupy a small knoll to interdict enemy artillery retiring towards McFarland Gap and Chattanooga.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 81
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