Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Ser Greyjoy, on those PTs and AM baits and pests, have you ever tried sending fighters in to strafe (100').  Pick the ones least likely to have LRCAP overhead and see if you can mow some of the little buggers down.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


May 25, 1943

Ok, the enemy landed something like 20,000 men at Tulagi, unopposed. Covered by Karaikira and Thousands Ships Bay's CAP, the allies used several APA/LST/AKs and landed something like a division. My garrison there has no hope of relief...out of supplies and completely isolated, those guys will fall at the very first attack. I won't engage...not now. Not there, where the allies have their dreaded PT/DDs swarms

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


May 25, 1943

Ok, the enemy landed something like 20,000 men at Tulagi, unopposed. Covered by Karaikira and Thousands Ships Bay's CAP, the allies used several APA/LST/AKs and landed something like a division. My garrison there has no hope of relief...out of supplies and completely isolated, those guys will fall at the very first attack. I won't engage...not now. Not there, where the allies have their dreaded PT/DDs swarms

As you know from your game with rader, the Allies can eventually move through here with close support from LBA on nearby bases and the PT/DD everywhere. But this is not where they want to be moving at this stage, so slowing and fighting them here helps a bit.

If he uses the PT alone I wonder if you could send those older DD or the faster E against them in the DEI. Four quick DD can do a lot of damage to PTs, but of course it helps if there is good moon and if there isn't a bombardment TF coming next. Sounds like it would be dicey in that area, but maybe worth a shot in spots.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Before you think she's not worth it, check out the AA numbers in early 44 (1500+). If you still have a KB then, that's a vey good ship to have with the slower CVs. The Shinano only gives 40 more planes and wouldn't get there until 44 anyway.

You're getting the Judy D4Y3 very early! Nice.

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Oh, that's cool! Never thought about the AA related with BBs... i still think them as an offensive weapon... dreamer me

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

I honestly would raise the PT issue at Babar and Saumlaki... Having PTs just cross 200 miles of openwater like that, to just go and park on your islands without local fuel dumps etc just sounds absurd to me...

I would raise it not because Qball is being dishonest or anything, the game engine let's it happen, but because with this mod that already emulates the Jap situation way better than in stock (supply and AS issue, resulting in closed AFs etc..) he doesn't need to use that and it gives him an advantage that is not in the spirit of the game you are playing.

There wouldn't be anything dishonourable about raising the issue at least.

my 2 cents anyway.

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ack with my defences here...there isn't that much i can do. The whole south pacif

quote:

ORIGINAL: goran007

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

I honestly would raise the PT issue at Babar and Saumlaki... Having PTs just cross 200 miles of openwater like that, to just go and park on your islands without local fuel dumps etc just sounds absurd to me...

I would raise it not because Qball is being dishonest or anything, the game engine let's it happen, but because with this mod that already emulates the Jap situation way better than in stock (supply and AS issue, resulting in closed AFs etc..) he doesn't need to use that and it gives him an advantage that is not in the spirit of the game you are playing.

There wouldn't be anything dishonourable about raising the issue at least.

my 2 cents anyway.

quote:

ack with my defences here...there isn't that much i can do. The whole south pacif

Whats the problem with PT boats anyway...
Could they cross 250 miles from Darwin to Saumlaki? OFC they could:

Fuel consumption of these engines was phenomenal; a PT boat carried 3,000 gallons (11,360 liters) of 100 octane avgas. A normal patrol for these boats would last a maximum of 12 hours. The consumption rate for each engine at a cruising speed of 23 knots was about 66 gallons (250 l) per hour (200 gallons [760 l] per hour for all 3 engines). However, at top speed, consumption increased to 166 gallons (628 l) per hour per engine (or 500 gallons [1,890 l] per hour for all 3 engines). Navy acceptance trials for every boat required it be able to demonstrate ability to achieve design speed of 41+ knots. Going at this speed, the 3,000 gallons of fuel would be used in only about 6 hours.

Could they be deadly?
Suragao strait:

On October 25, Abukuma met her fate in the Battle of Surigao Strait, part of the overall campaign of four naval battles collectively referred to as the Battle of Leyte Gulf. In the pre-dawn hours, as Shima's force entered the strait, the flotilla was attacked by a squadron of American PT boats. Lieutenant (jg) Mike Kovar's PT-137 fired a torpedo at a destroyer, but it ran deep and passed beneath the target to strike Abukuma at 3:25 AM in the No. 1 boiler room, killing 37 crewmen.

Although in the Pacific they didn't sink bigger IJN ships that doesn't mean they weren't capable doing so.
During World War II, S-boats sank 101 merchant ships totalling 214,728 tons.[6] In addition, they sank 12 destroyers, 11 minesweepers, eight landing ships, six MTBs, a torpedo boat, a minelayer, one submarine and a number of small merchant craft. They also damaged two cruisers, five destroyers, three landing ships, a repair ship, a naval tug and numerous merchant vessels. Sea mines laid by the S-boats were responsible for the loss of 37 merchant ships totalling 148,535 tons, a destroyer, two minesweepers and four landing ships.
(all taken from wiki)

In archipelago 1944 during the night, one TF composed of Fletchers and one TF of PT's should be able to deal with anything IJN had regardless of size. IJN didn't like to mess with US PT boats either on one hand they were cheap and numerous on other hand only one torpedo could sink any ship. PT's should be 'free kill' only for 100feet planes but for other ships not so. PT boats + night= good chance of lost destroyer (not to mention bigger ships)

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1


I get your point but there is a difference between "how far could a PT boat sail straight into the ocean with its fuel supplies" and whether it was practical in times of war to cross 250 miles of sea to be in an archipelago of which you have no control, far away from your supply dumps.

My point is that now that he has a foothold in the SOlomons, I have no problem at all with him flooding the area with PT boats. But in Saumlaki or Babar it just stretches the imagination and uses what I would qualify as a game engine issue.

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ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As goran007 notes above, I don't have a problem with the PT's being used in the DEI and being re-fueled by other ships.  They had the range and they were designed to work in this area in that manner.  Most CL's had AvGas tanks for FP's and even without those 7 skids of AvGas (9x55 gal per skid) or 15 pallets (4x55 gal per pallet) re-fuels a PT and again, that ain't that much space on a DD.  That they are also a deadly pest is also accurate. 

My biggest issue is that they are NOT as susceptible to strafing as they should be.  Fighter strafing a quite accurate and nimble and even 50cal would punch a lot of holes in a PT.  Yes strafing will get them, but I've never gotten more than 2 PT's per attack phase even when using a full group of high exp piloted A6M's.  36 A6M's catching 6 PT's on open water in daylight should be far more deadly than just 2PT's.  And that's the best I've done ... generally I would only get one.  Just feels low.

Hard to hit with bombs? Yes. Strafing though should be quite deadly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

As goran007 notes above, I don't have a problem with the PT's being used in the DEI and being re-fueled by other ships.  They had the range and they were designed to work in this area in that manner.  Most CL's had AvGas tanks for FP's and even without those 7 skids of AvGas (9x55 gal per skid) or 15 pallets (4x55 gal per pallet) re-fuels a PT and again, that ain't that much space on a DD.  That they are also a deadly pest is also accurate. 

My biggest issue is that they are NOT as susceptible to strafing as they should be.  Fighter strafing a quite accurate and nimble and even 50cal would punch a lot of holes in a PT.  Yes strafing will get them, but I've never gotten more than 2 PT's per attack phase even when using a full group of high exp piloted A6M's.  36 A6M's catching 6 PT's on open water in daylight should be far more deadly than just 2PT's.  And that's the best I've done ... generally I would only get one.  Just feels low.

Hard to hit with bombs? Yes. Strafing though should be quite deadly.

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ORIGINAL: obvert

Found this. Interesting. Not many lost to strafing in the war either. In fact, just one boat!

PT BOAT LOSSES IN WWII

Out of 531 PTs placed in US Navy service, 69 were lost: 5 - destroyed by enemy surface ship gunfire; 1 - rammed by enemy ship; 1 - rammed enemy ship; 1 - enemy aircraft strafing; 4 - enemy bombings; 2 - kamikaze attacks; 5 - enemy shore batteries; 4 - enemy mines; 1 - damaged by enemy fire then destroyed; 2 - lost in transit, tanker torpedoed by enemy. Total: 26 lost by enemy action.

Additional losses: 18 - grounded in enemy waters and destroyed to prevent capture; 3 - destroyed to prevent capture; 3 - destroyed by US aircraft; 2 - destroyed by Australian aircraft; 2 - destroyed by US ships; 1 - destroyed by enemy shore fire or wild shot from US warship; 5 - grounded/destroyed outside enemy waters or in storms; 6 - fire or explosion in port; 3 - collisions. Total: 43 lost by accidents, friendly fire or sea conditions.

http://www.ptboats.org/09-0-05-facts.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

I agree with Obvert. He's doing this to degrade your LBA. Turn off the bombers (go to nav search to keep up spotting), or shut down entirely.

Let him think he's ready to go when he isn't. Then turn them back on for the real show.