RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory?

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/5/2013 5:30:48 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Thanks for your comments guys, and for your constant support.
Unfortunately I agree with Mr Sutton here... my losses in terms of CAs and DDs are becoming a real problem.
However I do think that there wasn't much more I could do at this stage. His forces are simply growing too strong and, with the latest betas, the Japanese ability to produce large numbers of planes is becoming less and less significant. You simply can't hope to sink his ships at the rate we were used to in the stock. Also consider that, in DBB, allied flak really works, so even when his CAP is caught off guard (thing that happens very rarely) you're gonna have hard times in hitting something.

Anyway, war goes on. My perimeter is defenetly breached and more than 150,000 men are now left behind the enemy lines (30,000 at Rabaul, 45,000 at Vanimo, 30,000 at a bypassed Saumlaki, 33,000 between Taberfane and Dobo...not to talk about Timor....

Brad has chosen the best route: he never attacked a single atoll and avoided the pacific, going strong right where I was weaker (not because I didn't invest there, but because there are simply too many bases in southern DEI and you cannot defend them all).

Also the quality of my air army is now inferior to his. The zeros are really dead meat, even with crack pilots. Jills and Judy simply die like flies and the Frances seem to be almost impossible to coordinate.

The Frank remains a great plane but the IJA is too involved in Burma to give any real hand in the pacific.

Nothing unexpected, mind you. We all know how it was going to end... the only thing that frustrates me is the awfull performances of my KB so far

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 2791

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/5/2013 5:51:14 PM

paullus99

Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
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Ouch - after that, what does your surface fleet look like? I believe you lost more than what the Japanese lost at Leyte Gulf (minus the sacrificial carriers).

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(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2792

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/5/2013 6:00:53 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Ouch - after that, what does your surface fleet look like? I believe you lost more than what the Japanese lost at Leyte Gulf (minus the sacrificial carriers).

Yup, basically I have to detatch the Kongos from the KB in order to form a new SAG, but to be used only to protect the carriers. I still have the Yamato with Tanaka, but he's now in danger, being very exposed.

My surface fleet suffers, especially, from the lack of decent escort. My modern DDs are mainly gone and I have to create 2 overstacked CVTF (from 3 that were) in order to free some surface forces.

Really bad indeed.

However I do not complain. Japan has to lose his ships fighting. No point in keeping them at bay now that we're entering in 1944... by mid 1944 the allies will be so strong that any surface action will be a kamikaze one... so why not now, when I still had a chance?

Well...if I caught those APA/AKAs now i'd be really really happy with the result... without that prize, my operation can be called a failure.

(in reply to paullus99)

Post #: 2793

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/5/2013 6:10:33 PM

paullus99

Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
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Agreed - best to lose them fighting....it will be hard now, with those losses (combined with your losses in the air) to build up a critical mass of carrier air & LBA to seriously challenge his next invasion.

Though, I will say, he should be running out of easy targets (hopefully).

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Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2794

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/5/2013 6:44:02 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

GreyJoy,

You still downplaying the role of Kamikazes here? Any reconsideration in forcing an activation? Your surface fleet can use all the airborne anti-naval help it can get. After all, how else (other than the Peggy-Ts) do you intend your IJAAF to weigh in against his surface fleet?

Seems to me marshalling your strength by retraining carrier air, readying IJAAF and thinking about kamikaze activation as a positive is the way for you to go for your next major battle. You may have a couple months to sort it out too.

_____________________________

(in reply to paullus99)

Post #: 2795

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/5/2013 6:55:10 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

If I was Brad I would be pretty happy with that exchange. As crsutton says once the Fletchers arrive you don�t really need much else. BBs help but they are mostly useful in a bombardment role.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 2796

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/6/2013 4:37:38 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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You do deserve to be in better position. I have not see so many well planned KB missions end up so poorly. It is a Japanese nightmare. You are like the Confederate general Harry Heth (Canoerebel will know of him)Sometimes a good general is just unlucky.

This game just goes to reinforce my mantra. As long as the Allied player does not panic and lose his carriers, he can't really lose the game.

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(in reply to JocMeister)

Post #: 2797

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/6/2013 4:53:36 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Hey, it aint about who wins the war and whether the Allies are in Tokyo Bay in 1945 or the Japanese in Sydney in 1942. I say that any IJ player that still holds a solid MLR like GJ's and who has fought hard and bloodied and vexed his opponent to distraction deserves major plaudits. I say GJ has done unusually well. I also suspect that he'll still be fighting gamely as the game nears the end of 1944, thus costing Q-Ball additional hair and more anxious moments.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 2798

RE: Gods hate Yamamoto - 6/6/2013 5:03:33 AM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
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That was a serious shootin' match.

To my mind it confirms the value of layered SCTF's to guard amphibious forces.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2799

RE: Gods hate Yamamoto - 6/6/2013 9:07:44 AM

MrBlizzard

Posts: 636
Joined: 4/16/2012
From: Italy
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Hi GJ, I'm starting to believe that here there isn't only a problem of luck but also a problem of air assets: KB planes and pilots can't compete with Navy ones. A6M5 is too much inferior than Hellcat and Corsair, they can't match at all. USN pilots were very experienced after the last slaughters, if you add than KB pilots had many losses I'm guessing that also for pilots there was no match. If you add that CAP is always superior to escorts I come to believe that you probably couldn't win this battle.
Your tactics could have surely worked before the last patch, when a mass of planes could pass anyway the CAP. Now it seems impossible, all attacks are made in few numbers so are easily overwelmed by strong CAP.
I really don't know if Japan can still use KB as an effective attack weapon (not only as a deterrent) under these conditions.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 2800

RE: Gods hate Yamamoto - 6/6/2013 10:31:11 PM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
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I would add to this a question about why KB's strikes are coming in so piecemeal. I understand why the LBA is chopped up as the mod restricts the number of air support squads in Japanese base forces. But KB is never overstacked, so to speak. Why is it launching in dribs and drabs? Combine that with Mr. Blizzard's point about fighter quality, and it is hurting your odds.

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Post #: 2801

RE: Gods hate Yamamoto - 6/6/2013 10:50:13 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Dear Readers, another very harsh 14 hours working day... just got back... and did the turn... Well...

.... KB moved back North of Ambon, while our BBs got back to Boela and Ambon, under an heavy umbrella of CAP...

The allied CVs advanced North of Molu... and positioned exactly at 8 hexes South of my KB... guess what?...we didn't launch!!!

The Americans swept Ambon with their embedded corsairs...doing a lot of damage... than they came with an heavy strike that basically sunk the Yamashiro with 3 torps.

In the afternoon several P-47/P-38s swept Ambon, Killing 150 of my fighters... and then 2 more CLs...

The damaged Mutsu was also attacked with 17 1000lb bombs...

Two more BBs are downed...

The allied lost 300 planes against my 170... but we are on the recieving end once again...

Also 50 Liberators from Assam attacked the HI at Chetgtu, destroying 60 points of HI.... my Nicks were overwhelmed....

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 04, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Ambon , at 76,109

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 95
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 1
Ki-84a Frank x 21

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 5 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 6 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 31000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 20th/C Division, at 81,115 (Kai-eilanden)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 6
N1K2-J George x 10

Allied aircraft
Vengeance I x 25
B-25D1 Mitchell x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Vengeance I: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 5 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chengtu , at 75,41

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 2 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 0 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 36

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chengtu , at 75,41

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 36

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 3 destroyed, 18 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Boela , at 80,110

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 28
N1K1-J George x 42
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 94
Ki-84a Frank x 25
Ki-84r Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 9
F6F-3 Hellcat x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 2 destroyed, 6 damaged
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Runway hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Boela at 80,110

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 24
N1K1-J George x 40
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 92
Ki-84a Frank x 24
Ki-84r Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 134
SBD-5 Dauntless x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 17 destroyed
SBD-5 Dauntless: 9 destroyed, 1 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CA Myoko

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ambon at 76,109

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 77
Ki-84a Frank x 17

Allied aircraft
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 29
SBD-5 Dauntless x 36
TBF-1 Avenger x 10
TBM-1C Avenger x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 13 destroyed
SBD-5 Dauntless: 22 destroyed
TBM-1C Avenger: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Ambon at 74,109

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Allied aircraft
TBF-1 Avenger x 17

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CL Jintsu, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Abukuma, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CL Natori, Bomb hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 10000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

Jintsu dead in the water ...

Abukuma dead in the water ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Ambon , at 76,109

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 79
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 1
Ki-84a Frank x 20

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Ambon , at 76,109

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 13 NM, estimated altitude 43,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 70
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 1
Ki-84a Frank x 14

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 4 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Ambon , at 76,109

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 45,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 58
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 1
Ki-84a Frank x 7

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 7 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Ambon at 76,109

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 37
Ki-84a Frank x 6

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 84
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 28
SBD-5 Dauntless x 11
TBF-1 Avenger x 29
TBM-1C Avenger x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 13 destroyed
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 5 destroyed
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Kirishima
DD Yunagi
CL Kitakami
CA Furutaka
CA Kumano, Bomb hits 1
BB Nagato, Torpedo hits 3, heavy damage

BB Kongo, Bomb hits 1
CA Aoba
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Gorong at 81,112

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 5
N1K2-J George x 9

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 12
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 34

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 13, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Ambon , at 76,109

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 45,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 21
Ki-84a Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Kai-eilanden (81,115)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22491 troops, 347 guns, 302 vehicles, Assault Value = 692

Defending force 7265 troops, 79 guns, 13 vehicles, Assault Value = 200

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Allied adjusted assault: 952

Japanese adjusted defense: 265

Allied assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 1)

Allied forces CAPTURE Kai-eilanden !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
924 casualties reported
Squads: 44 destroyed, 56 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 7 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 44 (26 destroyed, 18 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (10 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
178 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Vehicles lost 10 (1 destroyed, 9 disabled)

Assaulting units:
754th Tank Battalion
Americal Infantry Division
II Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
9th Australian/A Division
9th Australian/B Division
I Australian Corps

Defending units:
15th Garrison Unit
32nd Nav Gsn Unit
20th/C Division
1st Indpt SNLF Coy

So....

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 2802

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/6/2013 11:01:27 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

GreyJoy,

You still downplaying the role of Kamikazes here?� Any reconsideration in forcing an activation?� Your surface fleet can use all the airborne anti-naval help it can get.� After all, how else (other than the Peggy-Ts) do you intend your IJAAF to weigh in against his surface fleet?

Seems to me marshalling your strength by�retraining carrier air, readying IJAAF and thinking about kamikaze activation as a positive is the way for you to go for your next major battle.� You may have a couple months to sort it out too.

Well, the army bombers will be ALL converted to the Peggy-T, starting from this month (december 1943) and used in that role.
The army fighters will be divided in two groups: escort/Kamikaze (the Oscars) and CAP (Frank-r and KI-44c).

I don't believe it's a viable strategy to let Brad advance so close to activate the Kamis...at least not on will!

Now that i've lost more than 2000 planes in less than a week (from Darwin raid, to Kai-Enlanden battle) i need time to recover.

Gotta say that numbers isn't my problem. not for the moment at least. Pilots are a problem, obviously, but i managed to stockpile enough of them in the last 2 years.

Problem isn't the KB pilots quality. They are still very good, i can assure you. The problem is the damned zero and the coordination.
The zero isn't able to escort my bombers and protect them. On CAP it rarely penetrates the escort shield (made by way superior fighters).
Then, the coordination. The penalties seem to affect the CV based bombers more than the LBA...

But the allies got the very same problem, so i guess it's balanced. Problem is that now, the advancer is in a better position than the defender... you simply have to move your CVs with their HUGE CAP and you're gonna be sure that nothing will penetrate towards the amphib TFs....

Sorry now...i should comment a lot more...i'd have many things to say but tonight i'm tired to Death and i need to sleep...

Night guys

< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 6/6/2013 11:02:16 PM >

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 2803

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 6:53:37 AM

Cribtop

Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline

Gotta say, if co-ordination effects KB that badly on such a consistent basis I think the mod needs a tweak. That said, I don't see why the game mechanics would cause this for KB - I thought CVs always provided enough "magic" aviation support for their air groups. However, the number of times this has happened is worrying. This is going past the realm of bad luck.

Still, you are fighting fiercely, GJ. Keep heart!

_____________________________

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Post #: 2804

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 7:40:25 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Gotta say, if co-ordination effects KB that badly on such a consistent basis I think the mod needs a tweak. That said, I don't see why the game mechanics would cause this for KB - I thought CVs always provided enough "magic" aviation support for their air groups. However, the number of times this has happened is worrying. This is going past the realm of bad luck.

Still, you are fighting fiercely, GJ. Keep heart!

I don�t think stuff like that is mod related? I thought stuff like that was hard coded and beyond what modders can fiddle with?

I have seen the KB launching some very diluted and scattered strikes in my game too and its unmodded.

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 2805

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 8:13:49 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Gotta say, if co-ordination effects KB that badly on such a consistent basis I think the mod needs a tweak. That said, I don't see why the game mechanics would cause this for KB - I thought CVs always provided enough "magic" aviation support for their air groups. However, the number of times this has happened is worrying. This is going past the realm of bad luck.

Still, you are fighting fiercely, GJ. Keep heart!

Don't think it's a mod related problem, nor a KB related problem. It affects also the allied CVs. look at the allied raids of the last combat report i've attached... they were not "perfect" as they could have been... we're talking about the allied late 1943 DS, uh!?
the difference is that the allied planes are more durable and armoured so they manage to penetrate the CAP screen no matter what...but those, to my eyes, are uncoordinated strikes too!

I don't dislike this behaviour... it gives to the game a much more unpredictable feeling... and, in another sense, add much more challenge and risks to every operation you plan.

So will Brad do now? Will he advance even further with his CVs, looking for a decisive battle? Will he get back to safety and lick his wounds?

Interesting days....

I got another Emergency today. Gotta fly to Valencia (Spain) to help a client signing a contract Tomorrow morning...
Not exactly the relaxing week end i was hoping for...but at least i'll have a free shot in Valencia saturday night and i will sunbath on Sunday

...if everything does go fine with that contract, obviously

Ok, packing my bags... see u soon guys

(in reply to Cribtop)

Post #: 2806

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 8:54:04 AM

koniu

Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

...and i will sunbath on Sunday...if everything does go fine with that contract, obviously

Ok, packing my bags... see u soon guys

With You luck i will worry more about weather

_____________________________

"Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War"

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2807

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 8:54:50 AM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, it aint about who wins the war and whether the Allies are in Tokyo Bay in 1945 or the Japanese in Sydney in 1942. I say that any IJ player that still holds a solid MLR like GJ's and who has fought hard and bloodied and vexed his opponent to distraction deserves major plaudits. I say GJ has done unusually well. I also suspect that he'll still be fighting gamely as the game nears the end of 1944, thus costing Q-Ball additional hair and more anxious moments.

I hope so Dan, To be honest tough i think Brad has broken into my weakest spot and my inner perimeter isn't that strong once he pass the Sorong-Ambon line. I'm running to deliver enough men and units to the Menado area, but it's a race against time.

I think now he has the chance to open at least another front. Still thinks he will land in western sumatra in the next months. He is reconning from Cocos every single dot base since early 1943...and now must be knowing exactly my disposition of troops there. I've done my best to be ready for this scenario, but the last week of fightings (let's call it the "Molu Battle") showed me that i cannot rely much on my LBA... However, i think i've done more or less everything i could to create a solid MLR. I am not forgetting the Kuriles either: keep on sending there men and supplies everytime i can...have to use the winter window at best of my possibilities.

Now in a month i'll start producing 250/300 D4Y4s, 200/300 KI-49Ts and, within a couple of months, 150/200 Graces...hopefully these new toys will help me a bit... but as long as Brad keeps on advancing under his LBA umbrella, there's not much i can do to stop him... i need him to make a big leap...somewhere Beyond his LBA umbrella...

Am not so sure he'll keep on advancing on eastern NG...after Hollandia there isn't much he can do now.... Biak area is a fortress... and he will be crazy to get there. I do believe he will try to attack Woleai (that Island between Truk and Guam) in order to cut Truk-Ponape off and get a kind of a foothold in the Mariannas... but he will need to committ his CVs.... and that base is guarded as best as possible..but he keeps on reconning so i think that would be a likely target...something like what bigred has done against Fatr

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 2808

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 9:49:20 AM

CaptBeefheart

Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline

Chin up, old boy. Chin up. The girls of Valencia are just dying to meet you tomorrow.

Cheers,
CC

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(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 2809

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 10:39:17 AM

veji1

Posts: 1019
Joined: 7/9/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hey, it aint about who wins the war and whether the Allies are in Tokyo Bay in 1945 or the Japanese in Sydney in 1942. I say that any IJ player that still holds a solid MLR like GJ's and who has fought hard and bloodied and vexed his opponent to distraction deserves major plaudits. I say GJ has done unusually well. I also suspect that he'll still be fighting gamely as the game nears the end of 1944, thus costing Q-Ball additional hair and more anxious moments.

I hope so Dan, To be honest tough i think Brad has broken into my weakest spot and my inner perimeter isn't that strong once he pass the Sorong-Ambon line. I'm running to deliver enough men and units to the Menado area, but it's a race against time.

I think now he has the chance to open at least another front. Still thinks he will land in western sumatra in the next months. He is reconning from Cocos every single dot base since early 1943...and now must be knowing exactly my disposition of troops there. I've done my best to be ready for this scenario, but the last week of fightings (let's call it the "Molu Battle") showed me that i cannot rely much on my LBA... However, i think i've done more or less everything i could to create a solid MLR. I am not forgetting the Kuriles either: keep on sending there men and supplies everytime i can...have to use the winter window at best of my possibilities.

Now in a month i'll start producing 250/300 D4Y4s, 200/300 KI-49Ts and, within a couple of months, 150/200 Graces...hopefully these new toys will help me a bit... but as long as Brad keeps on advancing under his LBA umbrella, there's not much i can do to stop him... i need him to make a big leap...somewhere Beyond his LBA umbrella...

Am not so sure he'll keep on advancing on eastern NG...after Hollandia there isn't much he can do now.... Biak area is a fortress... and he will be crazy to get there. I do believe he will try to attack Woleai (that Island between Truk and Guam) in order to cut Truk-Ponape off and get a kind of a foothold in the Mariannas... but he will need to committ his CVs.... and that base is guarded as best as possible..but he keeps on reconning so i think that would be a likely target...something like what bigred has done against Fatr

Greyjoy, how many bases, and where, do you have that are bypassed by the allies and from where you could start basing small chutais of naval LBA just to do some small time harassment ?

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 4:22:20 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Gotta say, if co-ordination effects KB that badly on such a consistent basis I think the mod needs a tweak. That said, I don't see why the game mechanics would cause this for KB - I thought CVs always provided enough "magic" aviation support for their air groups. However, the number of times this has happened is worrying. This is going past the realm of bad luck.

Still, you are fighting fiercely, GJ. Keep heart!

We have to put it in perspective. GJ has done a masterful job to put his carriers in the ideal 8 hex range. However, is that ideal after all? We are talking about coordination of "maximum range" strikes. It seems to me not that coordination is the issue but our surprise that it is not working. When one tries to fineness air attacks that will take place at the furthest range possible should the norm be uncoordinated strikes? I for one think so. So, GJ had done a great job protecting his carriers but at the sacrifice of landing a telling blow (or receiving one at the same time). Perhaps there are times when the correct tactic is to take the Nelsonian approach and put you ships close to the enemy. I an not criticizing the Greyjoy as I would have tried the same tact but I am no longer convinced that maneuvering for the 8 hex strike advantage works like it used to.

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Post #: 2811

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 7:49:49 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Gotta say, if co-ordination effects KB that badly on such a consistent basis I think the mod needs a tweak. That said, I don't see why the game mechanics would cause this for KB - I thought CVs always provided enough "magic" aviation support for their air groups. However, the number of times this has happened is worrying. This is going past the realm of bad luck.

Still, you are fighting fiercely, GJ. Keep heart!

We have to put it in perspective. GJ has done a masterful job to put his carriers in the ideal 8 hex range. However, is that ideal after all? We are talking about coordination of "maximum range" strikes. It seems to me not that coordination is the issue but our surprise that it is not working. When one tries to fineness air attacks that will take place at the furthest range possible should the norm be uncoordinated strikes? I for one think so. So, GJ had done a great job protecting his carriers but at the sacrifice of landing a telling blow (or receiving one at the same time). Perhaps there are times when the correct tactic is to take the Nelsonian approach and put you ships close to the enemy. I an not criticizing the Greyjoy as I would have tried the same tact but I am no longer convinced that maneuvering for the 8 hex strike advantage works like it used to.

Well put. Very interesting idea.

There are also other factors like weather and DL to consider, and the importance of all of those would be magnified by a longer strike. However it's really only an artificial 'max' strike as those airframes except the DBs have a longer range, (as do the Allied airframes), and can coordinate just fine from LBA positions on big bases with good support (like a CV) out to 10 hexes for the Jills and A6M5 with TT. That's normal range from land, not in the extreme range band yet.

< Message edited by obvert -- 6/7/2013 7:50:24 PM >

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 8:52:01 PM

BBfanboy

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Aren't there some un-coordination effects from having too many aircraft taking off from the same TF? Over 100 in the early war and over 200 later on? Getting a monstrous strike package launched and organized overhead before setting out would make the first groups in the air short on fuel. Of necessity, they would be sent off in gobs and bunches with plans to try and meet up en-route.

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/7/2013 8:56:46 PM

Cribtop

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Interesting thoughts, indeed.

I'm encouraged to confirm that poor KB co-ordination isn't mod related. Still, in the past 8 hex strikes worked, admittedly too well. Why now are they failing? Is GJ that unlucky? I wonder if there is a tweak intended for LBA that is unintentionally affecting CV air as well.

Further, I still wonder whether the dribs and drabs strikes should be met with more dribs and drabs CAP? Later in the war, CAP direction was getting quite good, earlier on it was quite poor. In game, CAP seems to be all there once the intercept time calculation is run. I worry you get full CAP smashing uncoordinated strikes over and over again, when maybe you should see a series of battles between portions of the CAP and the small strikes. That may not be possible under the code, but if so perhaps some other method could be found to deal with this, as we all know what happens when one side gets a bucket o' die rolls.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 6/7/2013 8:57:35 PM >

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/8/2013 12:37:02 AM

PaxMondo

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Coordination, relevant data:
a/c Cruise Spd
A6M5c-8 230
A7M2 259
B6N2a 207
D4Y2 265
D4Y3 207
D4Y4 230
B7A2 250

The A6M series can't keep up with several of the late a/c. When you upgrade some bomber models you dramatically increase the probability of fragmentation.

Historically all this mismatch comes about due to unplanned for delays in new models. For the IJN, the A7M delays are the major impact.

(All data is Scen 1)

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/8/2013 4:15:14 AM

JeffroK

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I would love to see a dev giving their opinion on this.

IMVHO.

An airstrike from 8 hexes guarantees nothing, its the maximum possible range to strike at.

What modifiers come into play??
Penalty for forming up? (This could easily be a 15-10 minute penalty)
% chance of failure for each hex to target? (To mimic the target moving, weather, aircraft falling out due OPs problems)
Penalty for non escorted raids to enter/transit hexes with enemy CAP?

While you have had a few succesful 8 hex attacks, I think that these are more of the exception than the rule. There are times you have to get a bit closer and put your forces at risk if you want to guarantee your raids hitting the target.

I think that you have done well, but its now the time of the AFB. Maybe you need to have some plans for attacks other than at QBalls strongest point.

How about 10 Divs landing at Eureka?

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/8/2013 6:47:28 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I would love to see a dev giving their opinion on this.

IMVHO.

An airstrike from 8 hexes guarantees nothing, its the maximum possible range to strike at.

What modifiers come into play??
Penalty for forming up? (This could easily be a 15-10 minute penalty)
% chance of failure for each hex to target? (To mimic the target moving, weather, aircraft falling out due OPs problems)
Penalty for non escorted raids to enter/transit hexes with enemy CAP?

While you have had a few succesful 8 hex attacks, I think that these are more of the exception than the rule. There are times you have to get a bit closer and put your forces at risk if you want to guarantee your raids hitting the target.
...

Not to mention the effects of weather. What nice tight formation wants to wade into heavy cloud? So they go around it, only to be diverted by the next cloud, etc. Other squadrons go the other way around the cloud and pick a different path through the clouds. And the paths don't always converge conveniently at the target!

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Post #: 2817

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/8/2013 9:12:34 AM

JocMeister

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Pax,

Is it confirmed by the devs that airspeed affect fragmentation?

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RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/8/2013 9:36:09 AM

inqistor

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Seriously guys, where have you found that lack of Aviation Support affect fragmentation? Manual clearly states, that it is made when planes are already in flight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Problem isn't the KB pilots quality. They are still very good, i can assure you. The problem is the damned zero and the coordination.
The zero isn't able to escort my bombers and protect them. On CAP it rarely penetrates the escort shield (made by way superior fighters).
Then, the coordination. The penalties seem to affect the CV based bombers more than the LBA...

This is more of morale problem. You got large loses in first attack, yet you tried another, but most of your groups already had low morale.
You just need to send lots of planes. Even if attack loses 2/3rd the rest will attack targets. With low morale they will go back without attacking, even after losing only 1/5th, so it is wasted effort.

But remember - you can still send you planes at night. Just get submarines to detect enemy fleets.

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Post #: 2819

RE: The Clash of Titans...another allied victory? - 6/8/2013 12:48:23 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

Seriously guys, where have you found that lack of Aviation Support affect fragmentation? Manual clearly states, that it is made when planes are already in flight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Problem isn't the KB pilots quality. They are still very good, i can assure you. The problem is the damned zero and the coordination.
The zero isn't able to escort my bombers and protect them. On CAP it rarely penetrates the escort shield (made by way superior fighters).
Then, the coordination. The penalties seem to affect the CV based bombers more than the LBA...

This is more of morale problem. You got large loses in first attack, yet you tried another, but most of your groups already had low morale.
You just need to send lots of planes. Even if attack loses 2/3rd the rest will attack targets. With low morale they will go back without attacking, even after losing only 1/5th, so it is wasted effort.

But remember - you can still send you planes at night. Just get submarines to detect enemy fleets.

Aviation support (or lack of) affects moral if the base is stacked over the support amount because the support unit's moral is reflected in the air groups' moral, and especially with the service 2-3 Japanese planes that are around in this game.

That shouldn't be a problem on CVs for the 8 hex strike though, and moral is not necessarily low in those units. It should be after big losses but I've had 1/3 of a fighter unit shot down and it was still at 85 moral because it also shot down a bunch of enemy planes. In this case GJ just lost a lot and didn't get good ratio so I'd imagine you're probably right about moral being a factor, but GJ will have to confirm if he can.

My (few) KB strikes in late 43 and 44 have been much more fragmented than in previous years even though I've had good leaders, split the CVs into more TFs to try and avoid the penalty for too many planes in one TF, and had all of the other factors right. So I'm thinking there is something to the cruise speed theory Pax and others have posed, as the Judy and Jill can be wildly different depending on the model and neither is perfectly suited to the A6M. Could be even worse if there are multiple versions of each plane in the TF which all have differing cruise speeds.

Looking back over the reports he has a LOT of different airframes in these uncoordinated attacks, with some even having mixes of LBA and KB planes. Virtually all models of the A6M line are escorting various models of Judy, Jill, and Frances. There are Oscars and Franks escorting as well, which complicates things even more.

This is probably very close to what happened to the Japanese in the war. They got low on certain airframes and had to start putting things together that weren't intended to work together, were always short on support and logistics, and chaos ensued.

< Message edited by obvert -- 6/8/2013 12:49:57 PM >

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