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RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica

 
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RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 7:52:16 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline 		Joe D. I have no intention to argue with you anymore as you continuing to spit your nonsense regardless what I post. You showed zero knowledge of real facts and all of what you have posted here are products of lies, half-truths or pure fantasies.

As replay to you previous post, only two things as rest is not worth effort and time:

1. I have already told you that Oric was airlifted two months prior then everyone knew what Serbs had planned.

2. Bosnian troops fought till the end (see US military analysis bellow). After they weren't able to hold line against advancing tanks they started hasty withdraw through Serbs controlled territory along with a lot of civilians. Many of them never reached friendly territory as they were constantly ambushed along 100 km route or died in minefileds. Those who surrendered were executed. Even today, a visitors from over a world every year come to Bosnia to walk the same route of horror and to give honor to victims of that march.

Here is a article written by Valerie Hopkins (or you think she is also Oric propagandist?) about this year march:

Thousands Embark on Peace March to Srebrenica



Also, as you obviously need to be educated, here is military analysis about what Bosnian forces were able to do in order to prevent the fall of Srebrenica (you believe US officials, right?):

quote:

"...
Even if every other factor had operated in its favor, without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica.
...
In sum, acting 28th Division commander Becirovic probably made the most sensible choice for the circumstances of the moment. Only in hindsight could it be said that fighting and dying in the enclave mightseem a nobler course than the surrendering and dying that was to be the fate of so many of the defenders. At the time, none of Becirovic's visible alternatives seemed viable.
...
The surrounded enclave was completely dependent on the UN for not only its defense but also for its sustenance—food, medical assistance, military defense, and political protection.
...
Such must have been Becirovic's thinking when he entrusted everything to the UN, which offered the only defense available to him—and left him without a backup plan if that defense should fail. It is only with the hindsight knowledge of the UN's failure and its consequences that Becirovic's last unchosen option — a sacrificial last stand—can reasonably be examined. House-to-house battles fought in the streets of Srebrenica and a guerrilla war conducted from the surrounding woods: these now look preferable to the docile surrenders and desperate flights that left thousands executed in the fields outside the town. What we know now they did not know then, however, and it is uncertain that in terms of lives lost and advantages gained another military option would have had any better outcome.

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference, given the Serbs' traditional reluctance to close with the enemy and suffer the inevitable combat losses of modem urban warfare. There were serious problems even with this course of action. Not all the men of the 28th Division were armed, and after the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition. Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity. A street-by-street contest for Srebrenica town at that point would probably have prolonged the fight and increased the losses to the Bosnian Serbs, but it could only have delayed, not changed, the final outcome.
..."

Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002


I think only this is enough for everyone who is carefully reading this thread to conclude that you have no clue about what you are talking about. In your fantasy world these lightly armed and doomed men were supposed to protect UN soldiers! Oh, well... there is nothing more to discuss with you after this colossal stupidity.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/16/2012 8:06:19 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 31
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 10:30:24 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Joe D. I have no intention to argue with you anymore as you continuing to spit your nonsense regardless what I post. You showed zero knowledge of real facts and all of what you have posted here are products of lies, half-truths or pure fantasies ....


You've just described your own version of the fall of Sreb, which I have refuted by spitting it back in your face.

As for your article ...

"A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ..."

... yet it wasn't made, and although Bosnian troops were much more numerous than the token Dutch peacekeeping force, you attached no blame to your fellow countrymen for failing to make a stand at Sreb. After all, wasn't that why they were assigned there in the first place?

"Even if every other factor had operated in its favor, without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ..."

Apparently the Tito-trained Bosniacs never heard of a "Molotov Cocktail," and much of that "puny armored column" was WW II vintage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
I think only this is enough for everyone who is carefully reading this thread to conclude that you have no clue about what you are talking about. In your fantasy world these lightly armed and doomed men were supposed to protect UN soldiers! ...


No, they were supposed to stand side-by-side with Dutch peacekeepers to defend the defenseless civilians in Sreb, but they decided not to do their duty, and for that you have repeatedly blamed everyone except these "lightly armed" Bosnian soldiers.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 32
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 11:44:34 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

You've just described your own version of the fall of Sreb, which I have refuted by spitting it back in your face.

As for your article ...

"A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ..."


Genius, why haven't you finished quote? You just pulled out of a context a half sentence which is only a little along your point of view ignoring pretty much everything else.

quote:


"Even if every other factor had operated in its favor, without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ..."

Apparently the Tito-trained Bosniacs never heard of a "Molotov Cocktail," and much of that "puny armored column" was WW II vintage.

No, they were supposed to stand side-by-side with Dutch peacekeepers to defend the defenseless civilians in Sreb, but they decided not to do their duty, and for that you have repeatedly blamed everyone except these "lightly armed" Bosnian soldiers.


Seriously, are you on drugs? You have to be. Apart from ignoring analysts who wrote that the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica, your advice to defenders under heavy artillery barrage would be to throw molotovs at tanks while, at the same time, your beloved Dutch peacekeepers were sitting pathetically in their APCs with TOWs and not firing a shot at approaching Serbs?

Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them and take a 100 km almost suicide march over enemy territory if they were able to defend enclave? Only 1 out of 5 who tried to get to friendly territory actually made it. No, in your version they are cowards. What a load of crap.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 33
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 11:53:39 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline 		Oh, and I have forgotten the best part - defenders were misguided by Dutch commander to abandon last line of defence... As in fore mentioned CIA analysis: "After conferring with the civilian leaders of the enclave, acting 28th Division commander Becirovic had even pulled his troops back from the "zone of death" in which Karremans believed NATO warplanes were going to devastate the Serb forces."

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:51:50 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Apart from ignoring analysts who wrote that the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ...


The same analysts who wrote that (at first) they did stop them?

"Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity ..."

Sounds like the problem had more to do with the division's temporary commander, but the decision to evac Oric at the expense of the moral of his troops still in Sreb remains with the Bosnian leadership in Sarejevo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....


Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:59:19 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Quick question after looking at the map..why didn't the 28th head towards the 285th and join forces with them. I see they were surrounded but at least it offered more troops and protection..maybe a fighting withdrawal with civs in tow to the 285th would have been a wiser move.

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https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 36
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 9:32:03 AM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Apart from ignoring analysts who wrote that the ARBiH had no way of stopping even the puny armored column that poked into Srebrenica ...


The same analysts who wrote that (at first) they did stop them?

"Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity ..."



Ok, as you are paying attention to my lessons and as you obviously don't have any documents to back up any of your initial claims I will continue to educate you using first grade military analysis written by your government agency.

So this is what happened at July 10:
-----
At about 0700, Srebrenica's defenders mounted their only successful counterattack, near the village of Kozlje about 2 kilometers south of Srebrenica. A roughly company-sized force of volunteers from the 28th Division's elite "maneuver unit" bushwhacked the farthest advanced group of Serbs while they were still asleep. Firing at close range, the Bosnian commandos damaged a Serb T-55 tank with a rocket-propelled grenade, while a spray of machine gun bullets raked through a platoon of sleeping Serbs. For many of them, it was a last wake-up call, and (heir surprised and disorganized companions fled the field, a second T-55 dragging the damaged tank southward.The exultant Muslims realized that there were no enemy troops between the advance element they had just dispatched and the main body of the attacking force to the south. A kilometer or more of contested territory lay open before them. Captain Mido Salihovic, commanding the raiding party, urgently called for reinforcements to take and reoccupy the key high ground around OP Foxtrot, where the battle had begun four days earlier. The UN had not saved the enclave, but for a moment it looked as though the town's Muslim defenders might defy the odds and do it themselves.

The little battle at Kozlje once again showed the critical limitations of the Bosnian Army. Armed with skill, bravery, small arms, surprise, and luck, a handpicked force of 100 or so troops had not only blunted the Bosnian Serb attack but had actually forced the advance VRS elements—including two tanks—into outright retreat. As so often before, the Bosnian Serbs were able to win back the lost hand with their ubiquitous trump card: field artillery fire, which the Muslims had no way of countering. As soon as the Muslims occupied the key hills at Kozlje and nearby Zivkovo Brdo, VRS artillery and mortar fire rained down on them. The ARBiH infantry was pinned down for bours, unable to advance, unwilling to retreat, and slowly accumulating casualties as shrapnel and tree bursts wounded troops hiding in or under whatever cover they could find.

While the commandos clung to their perilous position, 28th Division commander Ramiz Becirovic was frantically scrambling to find reinforcements to send south to their support Although he might have had 3,000 or more troops under his command, probably fewer than a third of them were even armed. These few hundred armed men were all Becirovic had to defend nearly 50 kilometers of frontline, and none of his subordinate brigade commanders was willing to thin his own frontline forces to create a mobile reserve. Late in the day, Becirovic finally scraped together a scratch force to send south, but the reinforcements were too few and their arrival too late to change the course of the battle.

While Becirovic and his 28th Division subordinates bobbled their chance for a counterattack, the Serbs continued to pound the daring Muslims who had reoccupied the hills around Kozlje. By midaftemoon casualties and withdrawals had reduced the original force of 100 to only 10 defenders posted above the morning's ambush site. When the Serbian advance force, reinforced and reorganized, finally returned with a tank and a full infantry company around 1600, there was nothing the 10 Muslim defenders could do to stop them.

Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002
-----

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....


Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?


Who to ask? Those few who survived? In a matter of fact this question of your is so low that is showing not only that you have black holes in your knowledge regarding Srebrenica but also that you are not able to show minimum respect to those who were abandoned by UN and tried their best in givens circumstances losing their lives and loved ones. Shame on you.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 9:59:37 AM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Quick question after looking at the map..why didn't the 28th head towards the 285th and join forces with them. I see they were surrounded but at least it offered more troops and protection..maybe a fighting withdrawal with civs in tow to the 285th would have been a wiser move.


I'm not sure, probably Serbs had strong line in that sector or the terrain was impassable. From map you can see that they attacked from south and road between 28 Division and 285 Brigade is in some sort of canyon.

Nevertheless, what you see as territory of 285th brigade was another UN safe zone - Zepa village. That safe zone was overrun by Serbs only 20 days after Srebrenica.




(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 38
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 11:59:10 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Ok, as you are paying attention to my lessons and as you obviously don't have any documents to back up any of your initial claims I will continue to educate you ...


Your lessons?
You didn't author any of this material; all you've done is cut & paste it into this thread, sometimes highlighting the text, which only shows that you've mastered elementary desktop publishing techniques.

And though it's been more than a decade since I've been in Bosnia, when it was still part of Yugoslavia, it was a province of the largest supplier of land mines to the Warsaw Pact Forces. During the Yugo wars of secession, land mines were in plentiful supply to combatants on all sides, and they used them extensively; when I left the Balkans, they were still demining the region, and they are probably still discovering mines today.

So if Sarejevo could airlift Oric and his henchmen out of Sreb and out of harm's way, it could have airlifted anti-tank and other munitions (RPGs) into Sreb so that its defenders could mine the roads leading into town.

But since you claim live in the Balkans, why didn't you think of this?
It seems you're the one in need of an education.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 12:12:17 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....


Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?


Who to ask? Those few who survived? In a matter of fact this question of your is so low that is showing not only that you have black holes in your knowledge regarding Srebrenica but also that you are not able to show minimum respect to those who were abandoned by UN and tried their best in givens circumstances losing their lives and loved ones. Shame on you.


They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 12:29:14 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Ok, as you are paying attention to my lessons and as you obviously don't have any documents to back up any of your initial claims I will continue to educate you ...


Your lessons?
You didn't author any of this material; all you've done is cut & paste it into this thread, sometimes highlighting the text, which only shows that you've mastered elementary desktop publishing techniques.


I just quoted western sources for you to learn the lesson as you didn't know any of this. Otherwise, if I didn't, you would blame me for being biased. In that way we can say that I helped you to get a better understanding of things you thought you knew.


(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 41
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 12:36:19 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
Also, are you aware that almost every single soldier in Srebrenica had at least a relative among civilians (many had close family members)? Why in the hell do you think they would abandoned them ....


Since you live in Sarajevo, why don't you ask them yourself?


Who to ask? Those few who survived? In a matter of fact this question of your is so low that is showing not only that you have black holes in your knowledge regarding Srebrenica but also that you are not able to show minimum respect to those who were abandoned by UN and tried their best in givens circumstances losing their lives and loved ones. Shame on you.


They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.



Now you sound like broken record repeating same stuff over and over again. Everyone, with IQ higher then amoeba can get clear understanding of defenders situation from above posted analysis. But what to expect from guy who is not able to understand simple AP news and is ignorant to everything which doesn't fit in his narrow point of view?

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 12:49:00 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

GEN. SHEEHAN BLAMES GAY DUTCHBAT TROOPS FOR SREBRENICA GENOCIDE

A former American general has blamed homosexuals serving in the Dutch military for the fall of Srebrenica.

Fifteen years after the safe area of Srebrenica fell to Serb militias, an American general has found the cause: homosexuals had weakened the Dutch UN battalion charged with protecting the enclave. John Sheehan, a former high-ranking Nato official, said this on Thursday when he publicly addressed the American president Barack Obama’s plans to allow gays to serve in the military.

According to the charges brought against the Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic at the special tribunal in The Hague, 9,210 Muslim men were killed in Srebrenica and its surrounding area in 1995. A Dutch UN battalion had been charged with the task of protecting the valley against the Serbs. A study by the Dutch research institute NIOD has found that the soldiers did not have an adequate mandate to act and the battalion was insufficiently prepared.

Speaking in the American Senate, Sheehan said European countries tried to “socialise” their armed forces by letting people serve in the army too easily, which left them weakened.

The former general claimed his opinion was shared by the leadership of the Dutch armed forces. Carl Levin, chairman of the U.S. Senate's Armed Services Committee, asked: "Did the Dutch leaders tell you it was because there were gay soldiers there?"

Sheehan answered in the affirmative, mentioning the name „Hankman Berman”, most probably referring to the then chief of defence staff, Henk van den Breemen.


Joe D. - I know you mentioned hanging around with some Dutch soldiers from Srebrenica. Could it be that you are more then just a friend with one of them? Maybe you have found your soulmate? That would explain your ignorance, mocking of genocide survivals, and pathetic attempts to switch all responsibility from UN and Serbs to victims.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/17/2012 12:52:57 PM >

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:14:18 PM   
Jevhaddah


Posts: 626
Joined: 11/24/2005
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Oh Dear, oh Dear, oh Dear....

Cheers

Jev

_____________________________

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(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 44
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:20:44 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

I just quoted western sources for you to learn the lesson as you didn't know any of this. Otherwise, if I didn't, you would blame me for being biased ...


You've already admitted to an emotional bias, and as a DINFOS-trained journalist , I am a "western source".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.


Now you sound like broken record repeating same stuff over and over again. Everyone, with IQ higher then amoeba can get clear understanding of defenders situation from above posted analysis ...


Anyone can cut and paste, but understanding requires more than that, which is why I've had to repeat myself to you time and again.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 45
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:34:11 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Joe D. - I know you mentioned hanging around with some Dutch soldiers from Srebrenica ...


I "mentioned" that I trained with Dutch and Canadian peacekeepers during Co-Operative Best Effort in '99, but the blame for the fall of Sreb runs from the UN down to the Bosnian troops on the ground that abandoned them to the mercy of irate Serbs "avenging" the war crimes of your own Naser Oric.

And as for you, dressing-up in fatigues while wearing dark glasses with a "coffin nail" dangling from your mouth doesn't make you "hard core," unless you're also a porn star as well as a BS artist.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 46
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:41:46 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline 		Oh geez....Is the conflict to recent? To much emotion for objective discussion.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 1:47:56 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

You've already admitted to an emotional bias, and as a DINFOS-trained journalist , I am a "western source".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.


Now you sound like broken record repeating same stuff over and over again. Everyone, with IQ higher then amoeba can get clear understanding of defenders situation from above posted analysis ...


Anyone can cut and paste, but understanding requires more than that, which is why I've had to repeat myself to you time and again.


If you are journalist and western source may you tell us how many books, articles, analysis or anything else you wrote about the subject? I am sure that you didn't read anything, even less wrote about it. Maybe, only exception is short AP news from 2003 which you weren't able to understand. To be worse you didn't know many key facts (for example, that court found Oric not guilty, that he was evacuated two months prior assault, you didn't know order of battle of any side, confusing events and timeline, repeating well documented serbs propaganda over and over again etc, etc...).

Regarding your remark about understanding, you repeated yourself because you didn't have anything else (see paragraph above). As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.


(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 48
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 2:04:14 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
And as for you, dressing-up in fatigues while wearing dark glasses with a "coffin nail" dangling from your mouth doesn't make you "hard core," unless you're also a porn star as well as a BS artist.


If you want to know my profile avatar is a work of my fourteen years old brother who, at that time, started to play with Photoshop and added "coffin nail" and dark glasses as a joke. Probably BS art but it is dear to me.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 49
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 2:09:53 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Gents I think you should agree to disagree now and call it a day - it's just a slanging match and one or both of you will end up banned.

Whaddya say?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 50
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 2:17:05 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Gents I think you should agree to disagree now and call it a day - it's just a slanging match and one or both of you will end up banned.

Whaddya say?


I agree. I said everything what has to be said. Anyone can read through thread up to post #40 and make his own conclusion. Even better, if you are interested, go research on your own about subject.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 5:50:23 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

If you are journalist and western source may you tell us how many books, articles, analysis or anything else you wrote about the subject? ...


DINFOS-trained journalist, as in Defense Information School, Ft. Meade, MD.

Beginning in May 2000, I rotated as editor, ass't editor and later lead writer for the Talon, an Army-funded magazine, out of Eagle Base, Tuzla, for almost 6 months.

Otherwise, two college papers at SCSU on the Dayton Accords and the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.


Sounds like you want to "ethnically cleanse" me, which makes you no different from your like-minded neighbors who want to rid the human race of you as well.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 6:12:06 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.


Sounds like you want to "ethnically cleanse" me, which makes you no different from your like-minded neighbors who want to rid the human race of you as well.


I would expect that DINFOS-trained journalist know what "ethnic cleansing" actually means.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

If you are journalist and western source may you tell us how many books, articles, analysis or anything else you wrote about the subject? ...


DINFOS-trained journalist, as in Defense Information School, Ft. Meade, MD.

Beginning in May 2000, I rotated as editor, ass't editor and later lead writer for the Talon, an Army-funded magazine, out of Eagle Base, Tuzla, for almost 6 months.

Otherwise, two college papers at SCSU on the Dayton Accords and the Vance-Owen Peace Plan.


Just as expected. Nothing about subject.

One question. Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/17/2012 6:39:37 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 53
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 7:40:16 PM   
Keunert


Posts: 886
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline 		it is a shame that a thread on such a tragic moment of recent european history has to turn in another forum fight. i remember watching those pictures as a teenage boy on television and i later read the incredible moving account of Joe Sacco on a similiar topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Area_Gora%C5%BEde

no matter what, the inability to avoid Sebrenica was a lowpoint in europes recent history. my thoughts are with the victims.

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 10:46:13 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

I would expect that DINFOS-trained journalist know what "ethnic cleansing" actually means.


I think you captured the meaning of it below, albeit unintentionally:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... As a matter of fact, you spitted such stupidities, misconceptions and fantasies that is expected vortex to be formed above your head sucking you in for a good of human race.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
One question. Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?


Perhaps you should re-read your own cut & paste remarks:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ...



_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 55
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/17/2012 11:03:36 PM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

One question. Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?


Perhaps you should re-read your own cut & paste remarks:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference ...




Perhaps you, as DINFOS-trained journalist, shouldn't pull out something out of context. Whole citation gives totally different conclusion:

quote:

A fighting stand in Srebrenica, if one could be made, might have made a difference, given the Serbs' traditional reluctance to close with the enemy and suffer the inevitable combat losses of modem urban warfare. There were serious problems even with this course of action. Not all the men of the 28th Division were armed, and after the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition. Even when the ARBiH decapitated the first Serb column on 10 July and seized a critical defensive point, it took Becirovic too long to round up too few men to exploit the opportunity. A street-by-street contest for Srebrenica town at that point would probably have prolonged the fight and increased the losses to the Bosnian Serbs, but it could only have delayed, not changed, the final outcome.

Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002


BTW, you avoided to answer a question so here it is again:

Your repeated assertion about blame of Bosnian troops and Sarajevo government for cowardly abandoning Srebrenica civilians and UN forces to the Serbs - Was it a official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude?

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/17/2012 11:08:15 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/18/2012 2:43:55 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Perhaps you, as DINFOS-trained journalist, shouldn't pull out something out of context ....


My use of ellipsis ... indicates additional text when condensing quotes; it's called English, and someday you may learn it well enough to use it properly, but that day hasn't arrived yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
BTW, you avoided to answer a question so here it is again ....


It wasn't a question, but another of your poorly worded accusations of what you claim I said, instead of what I actually said.

Here's what I actually said, using the quote function provided on this forum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.


I don't see the word "cowardly" anywhere in this, or in any of my other quotes, which means you've been deliberately misquoting what you claimed I said: that makes you a liar, and you've been lying on this thread since post #31.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Joe D. I have no intention to argue with you anymore ...


So how many argumentative posts have you made since this lie?

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/18/2012 7:12:52 AM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Perhaps you, as DINFOS-trained journalist, shouldn't pull out something out of context ....


My use of ellipsis ... indicates additional text when condensing quotes; it's called English, and someday you may learn it well enough to use it properly, but that day hasn't arrived yet.


Your use of ellipsis prove that you are light years apart from real journalist. Pulling couple of words out of contexts and ignoring point of what original author said is called twisting of facts.


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
They weren't just abandoned by the UN, but by the Bosnian troops assigned to protect them, so "shame on you" and your war time leaders in Sarajevo who evac'ed Oric, but left the rest of Sreb to fend for itself.


I don't see the word "cowardly" anywhere in this, or in any of my other quotes, which means you've been deliberately misquoting what you claimed I said: that makes you a liar, and you've been lying on this thread since post #31.


You call yourself journalist but you don't know what is quoting. I didn't quoted you. I just summed what you are claiming in various posts whole time. As for "cowardly" - it is logical conclusion from your claim. You don't need to write it directly. And again, you are running away from the essence.

Now, I'm asking you for the third time. Was your claim, about civilians abandoned by the Bosnian troops and war time leaders in Sarajevo, official stance of SFOR command or it is just you personal attitude? Please, just say - yes or no.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/18/2012 8:06:40 AM   
Emx77


Posts: 419
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
So how many argumentative posts have you made since this lie?


Let me see who is laying here:

1). Joe. D.: "As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him" - LIE, International Court overturned all convictions against Oric.

2) Joe D. went to repeat claim about 2.000 killed civilians by Oric. LIE and well documented Serb propaganda fantasy made to justify their responsibility for genocide.

3) Joe. D.: "The Dutch peacekeepers were so few in number that they more of a trip-wire than a deterrent to aggression". - LIE

4) Joe. D.: "The few hundred Dutch peacekeepers left behind in Sreb were abandoned by both the UN and the Bosnian soldiers" - I don't even how to call this. Fantasy, twisting of fact, lie? It was other way around.

5) Joe. D.: "The Bosnian troops who decided it was wiser to leave town not only abandoned the outnumbered Dutch peacekeepers, but the unarmed Bosnian civilians in Sreb who were then left to the mercy of Serbs", - LIE

Bosnian troops didn't decide to leave and go to vacation. They were defeated and defense collapsed, because:

a) Third of them were even armed (primarily because of UN imposed arms embargo)
b) Few hundred armed men had to defend nearly 50 kilometers of frontline
c) Without heavy weapons the ARBiH had no way of stopping Serbs armor
d) After the Serbs attacked few had more than a day's supply of ammunition
e) They were misinformed by Dutch commander about NATO airstrikes
f) Dutch peacekeepers didn't responded with fire to Serb assault on enclave and their own outposts. So they were left on their own.
g) After collapse of defense line some of defenders, accompanied with a large number of civilians, tried to reach friendly territory and set out for a 100 km march of death through minefields and Serbs territory. Only 1 out of 5 who tried to get to friendly territory survived.

These are all well known and documented facts which Joe D. seems to ignore. Joe D. saying that "The Bosnian troops decided it was wiser to leave town" would be the same as if he said that Warsaw Ghetto defenders decided to leave and left civilians at the mercy of Nazis.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/18/2012 8:08:00 AM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/18/2012 11:30:25 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

You call yourself journalist but you don't know what is quoting. I didn't quoted you. I just summed what you are claiming in various posts whole time. As for "cowardly" - it is logical conclusion from your claim. You don't need to write it directly. And again, you are running away from the essence ...


As I'm still here, I'm not running away from anything.

"Quoting" is when a writer claims to record what someone else said, but if it's not what he said, it's not called a "logical conclusion," it's called a "lie," which makes you a liar.

But perhaps you have another word for it: taqiyya?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
... Joe D. saying that "The Bosnian troops decided it was wiser to leave town" would be the same as if he said that Warsaw Ghetto defenders decided to leave and left civilians at the mercy of Nazis.


Yet another example of Godwin's Law, and it only took Emir two pages to get there.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 60
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