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44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 4:59:12 AM   
trhinz

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Saskatchewan, Canada
Status: offline 		Can someone help me understand these combat results? This sort of thing is happening over and over in my game with zuluhour (a great opponent incidentally) in late 43, early 44. The Japanese pilots were not raw recruits. Please see attached screenshot.

Afternoon Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 125 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 42



Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 16
Spitfire VIII x 16
P-40N5 Warhawk x 8


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 9 destroyed

No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-43-IIa Oscar sweeping at 31000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.607 Sqn RAF with Spitfire VIII (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 26000 , scrambling fighters between 25000 and 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
No.615 Sqn RAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
51st FG/25th FS with P-40N5 Warhawk (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters to 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes




Attachment (1)
Post #: 1
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 5:13:10 AM   
Dan Nichols


Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline 		Look at the vast difference in aircraft stats:

A KI-43-IIa is no match for a Spitfire VIII





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 2
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 5:35:18 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		I think sweeping at that altitude at long range also causes massive amount of pilot fatigue.
I have also started paying attention to MVR bands. One of the few advantages of the Oscar is it is more maneuverable than most allied fighters. But when you run them at 31,000 feet you are wasting almost every bit of your advantage there.

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RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 6:33:04 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		That result doesn't surpise me. IMHO, the Spit VIII is the best point defense fighter in the game. Also, I don't know about your game, but my Allied Burma-theater pilots are always top-notch within a few months.

Also, note that only 19 of your Oscars showed up to the party. His Spit 8s and P-40s were there within the 31-minute warning time. Only some of the Spit 5s were late, and by 4 minutes.

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 4
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 7:26:00 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Agree with the others. The Oscar is just outclassed by the spitfire.

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Post #: 5
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 7:43:27 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Planes with paper armour v the 20mm Hispano & 50cal Browning.

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Post #: 6
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 9:05:47 AM   
moonraker65


Posts: 556
Joined: 7/14/2004
From: Swindon,Wilts. UK
Status: offline 		Indeed by 1944 the Oscar was totally outmatched by most Allied fighters of the day. Maybe a few expert pilots flying them might produce better results but quite honestly it's a no contest

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Post #: 7
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 9:24:22 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Well, thats simply the stuff that happens when THIS:




tries to compete with THIS:







Nuff said...

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Post #: 8
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 9:40:06 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Spitfire is an awesome Ale! You can even find it here in Sweden! Love it!

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 9
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 11:39:27 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Spitfire is an awesome Ale! You can even find it here in Sweden! Love it!



British beer? No offense but most of what I have tried on the island wasn't really coming close to what I would call beer.

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Post #: 10
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 12:37:16 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Spitfire is an awesome Ale! You can even find it here in Sweden! Love it!



British beer? No offense but most of what I have tried on the island wasn't really coming close to what I would call beer.


Woot?! They make great Ale! Fullers, Spitfire, Hogoblin, Bishops Finger, Newcastle and Old empire to name a few! I havn´t tried any of the british lagers. But all lagers tastes nothing imo!

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 11
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 12:41:16 PM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 3/13/2010
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


British beer? No offense but most of what I have tried on the island wasn't really coming close to what I would call beer.



+1

A nice name doesn't turn a strange beer into a nice beer.

< Message edited by Banzan -- 8/17/2012 12:43:06 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 12:47:34 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		As to OP, defending fighters were also staggered at different altitudes (aka "split cap"), which can cause attacker being caught by higher CAP when attacking lower CAP.

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Post #: 13
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 1:59:58 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Well, you have already heard enough about the relative merit of the Oscar. In game terms I think that the most critical factor for a fighter is speed, and all three types of Allied fighters are faster than the Oscar. Then you factor in better firepower, armor and obviously a set of unfavorable die rolls and you have a problem. I really don't think maneuver is that important.

At this stage of the war, if I am the Japanese player then I would not use Oscars for sweeps. Put your best pilots in your best planes and use them for sweeps. Use the Oscar to escort bombers and put you average pilots in them. They (Oscars) are going to die anyways and there is no sense squandering top pilots in them.

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Post #: 14
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 3:23:29 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Spitfire is an awesome Ale! You can even find it here in Sweden! Love it!



British beer? No offense but most of what I have tried on the island wasn't really coming close to what I would call beer.


Yeah thought this too a long time ago.

But I soon found out that Austrians, as well as Germans (ask Historiker ), are much too proud of their breweries. Theres so much beer around the world
that can easily hold its own, British ale included. Different, maybe, worse, no way.

Funnily best I recently found was in NY while on vacation: an ale called Moose Drool. From a brewery in Montana. A US brewery!
Really nice taste.



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Post #: 15
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/17/2012 10:54:39 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Heres the Allied part of the equation:





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 16
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 3:28:39 AM   
TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum


Posts: 312
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline 		Well there you have it. Highly experienced pilots flying a vastly superior aircraft means lots of kills with 0 losses.

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Post #: 17
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 3:49:01 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		Moose Drool is awesome. Had it on vacation in Whitefish Montana. Same brewery makes a great IPA.

As to the planes, I recall GreyJoy saying Spit VIII and Thuds were his favorite planes against Rader.

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Post #: 18
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 4:02:16 AM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		ps Still a NewCastle man, man I never get tired of it and always use a stone mug.

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Post #: 19
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 4:12:33 AM   
TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum


Posts: 312
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline 		Oh and since we're also talking beer, I've found a few good brews at a local store that stocks all sorts of goodies from across the pond.




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Post #: 20
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 12:37:50 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Sure looks like a stout to me.
Post #: 21
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 1:05:39 PM   
Lcp Purcell

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 5/11/2009
Status: offline 		First off I totally agree with everything said, in addition, why the heck are they flying the Oscar IIa at the front in late 43, The Oscar IIb is a massive upgrade, with 40MPH speed bump and a point of armor. You should have a decent number of Oscar factories from the opening days of the war. One or more should have advanced the time of the Oscar IIb.

And the Oscar IIb I am finding works best in a fighter bomber roll, (low level strafing runs against units with limited AA flak) the only thing they really have going for them is their massive Bomb load.

In my mind the Tojo is the most important fighter for the IJAA
Post #: 22
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 3:32:44 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Sure, sure

Superior firepower of the Spitfire VII
Superior speed
Superior armor
Excellent pilots


Yada, yada, yada


Y'all missed it.

Oscar=Pure Butt Ugly (3)
Spitfire=Makes Tears Come to Your Eyes Beautiful (10)

It's the beauty gap. Like it or not, this is how the world works.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 8/18/2012 3:33:05 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 3:37:25 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The Spitfire is the most beautiful fighter of WWII....there...I said it.

P-51 is close...but not quite the pinnacle.

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Post #: 24
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 3:46:26 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		More beautiful than the Buffalo?

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Post #: 25
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 4:01:46 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

More beautiful than the Buffalo?



Tempting, yes, but my position stands.

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Post #: 26
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/18/2012 4:47:41 PM   
KPAX


Posts: 735
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline 		Come on the P-47 Thunderbolt, more lovingly referred to as "The Jug" wins it hands down.

Specially two of them ... I mean you does not like a beautiful pair of jugs.


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Thanks !!

KPAX

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Post #: 27
RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/23/2012 11:49:04 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		The only use for Oscar in early 1944 is to serve as an ablative armor for your long-range strikes. Makes a decent kamikaze plane too, with a good combination of range and bombload. As about actually shooting down Allied planes, yeah, not exactly suitable for that anymore. Effects of tech difference tend to be much more pronounced in AE than IRL, IMO and WitP air combat engine especially hates planes with a low number of guns. And even then, you should use IIb and (if already available) IIIa. I think IIa and IIb are about equal in anti-fighter combat, but the latter has greater range and armor, and IIIa is just superior. Either way, stick your good Army pilots in Ki-84s ASAP. Failing that, or in theaters with poor support, Ki-44-IIc is a good option, or Ki-100-I (if you accelerated Ki-61 line hardcore, which likely might be a waste of resources, considering that Ki-44-IIc is comparable in stats, but available far earlier).

Also, Spitfire VIII is the most deadly Allied fighter in 1943-early 1944. Good thing there aren't many of them.

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RE: 44 Air Combat - 8/24/2012 12:44:12 AM   
StK


Posts: 76
Joined: 8/18/2012
From: Upper Austria
Status: offline 		@Cap Mandrake:
Beauty contest: Imho the Spit takes home a very good 2nd place and if you compare piston fighters she wins. But against the Me-262? No way

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Changing ones point of view isn't easy, but it provides one with a different view on the subject.

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Post #: 29
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