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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >>

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- 12/18/2002 10:28:25 PM

Howard Mitchell

Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TIMJOT
[B]I am interested in the book you site "A Bloody Shambles". Do you recomend it and where did you get it? [/B][/QUOTE]

Bloody Shambles, two volumes published so far and a third in the works. Covers the air war in the early days of the Allies involvment in the Pacific in great depth. The series benefits greatly from having a Japanese co-author. Expensive, but good. Published by Grub Street Press in the UK:

[url]www.grubstreet.co.uk[/url]

_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics � they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 61

- 12/19/2002 12:56:50 AM

TIMJOT

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline

Thanks Howard, for the heads up. I just found both volumes on Amazon.com believe it or no, $50 each:eek: I'll say its a bit expensive, but I have been looking for a long time for a detailed account of early Pac war air battles in particular the much neglected SE Asia campaign. So I'll think I will fork over the cash and buy them. They got good reviews and from what I can tell look pretty in-depth.

Thanks again

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 62

Victories - 12/19/2002 1:46:22 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Hi, I think pilots in both UV and WITP should get credit for "confirmed" kills. Whether they are bogus or not.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 63

Grub street books - 12/19/2002 3:41:04 AM

entemedor

Posts: 65
Joined: 6/14/2002
From: Barcelona (Spain)
Status: offline

TIMJOT,
The team of authors Christopher Shores/Brian Cull have other Grub Street books witht he same level of detail than 'Bloody Shambles', they usually share their work with authors 'from the other side' to obtain as much objective a view as possible. I found all of them excellent, there should be no problem obtaining them from Amazon.
They are:

'Malta: the Hurricane years' and 'Malta: the Spitfire year', co-authored with Nicola Malizia, two volumes covering the Italo-German offensive against Malta, 1940-42.

'Air war for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete', also with Nicola Malizia.

'Fledgling Eagles: complete account of air operations during the Phoney War and Norwegian campaign, 1940', co-authored with John Foreman, Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt, Heinrich Weiss and Bjorn Olsen.

As all three campaigns above involved also a good deal of naval operations, the books have much of interest concerning attacks on naval and merchant ships and the aircraft which carried them.

One of the things which I remember noting specially in these books was the impact, out of all proportion, which a single German fighter Staffel (7./JG26) had when it started offensive patrols over Malta. They were the cause of most of the British losses over the island, but the most remarkable thing was that the vast majority of claims by 7./JG26 pilots could be matched to a British aircraft shot-down, force-landed or at least damaged. This piece of research benefited from circumstances quite unusual when studying an air campaign: there was just one German unit and a few British squadrons flying the concerned aircraft types, always over the same geographical area, and with complete records available for both sides. A researcher paradise! Even then, it is really unusual that 90% of the claims made by the 7./JG26 leading ace, Hauptmann Joachim Muncheberg, can be linked to a British plane actually hit.

Cheers,

Entemedor

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 64

- 12/20/2002 1:36:09 AM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]Oh....What a lovely war.:) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hear Hear, let's have some more beer over here. :D

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 65

Re: Grub street books - 12/20/2002 11:20:24 PM

TIMJOT

Posts: 1822
Joined: 4/30/2001
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by entemedor
[B]TIMJOT,
The team of authors Christopher Shores/Brian Cull have other Grub Street books witht he same level of detail than 'Bloody Shambles', they usually share their work with authors 'from the other side' to obtain as much objective a view as possible. I found all of them excellent, there should be no problem obtaining them from Amazon.
They are:

'Malta: the Hurricane years' and 'Malta: the Spitfire year', co-authored with Nicola Malizia, two volumes covering the Italo-German offensive against Malta, 1940-42.

'Air war for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete', also with Nicola Malizia.

'Fledgling Eagles: complete account of air operations during the Phoney War and Norwegian campaign, 1940', co-authored with John Foreman, Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt, Heinrich Weiss and Bjorn Olsen.

As all three campaigns above involved also a good deal of naval operations, the books have much of interest concerning attacks on naval and merchant ships and the aircraft which carried them.

One of the things which I remember noting specially in these books was the impact, out of all proportion, which a single German fighter Staffel (7./JG26) had when it started offensive patrols over Malta. They were the cause of most of the British losses over the island, but the most remarkable thing was that the vast majority of claims by 7./JG26 pilots could be matched to a British aircraft shot-down, force-landed or at least damaged. This piece of research benefited from circumstances quite unusual when studying an air campaign: there was just one German unit and a few British squadrons flying the concerned aircraft types, always over the same geographical area, and with complete records available for both sides. A researcher paradise! Even then, it is really unusual that 90% of the claims made by the 7./JG26 leading ace, Hauptmann Joachim Muncheberg, can be linked to a British plane actually hit.

Cheers,

Entemedor [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info. Right now Im concentrating my reading on the Pacicfic theater. If I like their work I will keep that Malta book in mind when Matrix's Mediteranean version of UV comes hopefully sometime in the near future:)

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 66

- 12/21/2002 2:45:57 PM

msaario

Posts: 245
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Back in E U R O P A
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TIMJOT
[B]Entemedor

Great information. Now can Mdiehl concede that the probility is high that Sakai did shoot down a p-39 or at least had the opportunity to and can massario concede that pilot kill claims are generally inaccurate.[/B][/QUOTE]

Howdy,

I took a few days off here for a purpose ;)

I admit, mdiehl has had some good points. I have been aware of the Japanese overclaiming all along, however, I got upset because he absolutely rejected all of Sakai's accounts. If given reasonable evidence, I will change my mind. But, regarding the P-39 thing, I am not convinced.

I will no more argue about this. Obviously there is nothing I can do to prove mdiehl anything. If he has set his mind and will not even consider other possibilities, be it so.

IIRC, the Japanese Aces book mentions that they only talk about claims not actual kills. In the end of the book they have listed some major air engagements, where they show what the Japanese claimed and also what they have been able to find on the Allied records. Often, the results vary greatly both ways.

Merry Xmas to all,

--Mikko

PS Perhaps I will get one of the Lundstrom books sometime... They have been praised for accuracy and mdiehl often mentions them :D

(in reply to Ross Moorhouse)

Post #: 67