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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/21/2012 11:37:05 PM

wolfclan

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spence:
Speaking of Aussie movies, I have always thought that BREAKER MORANT was very good.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 12:22:40 AM

spence

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I enjoyed "Breaker Morant" also. I sort of thought it was more of a "courtroom drama" than a "war movie" but that may just be me.

IMHO "Gettysburg" is far and away a better movie than "Gods and Generals". "Gettysburg" is based on the book "The Killer Angels" by Michael Shaara. "Gods and Generals" is a similarly formatted book (Chapters named after the General/Character who's point of view they convey) written by Michael Shaara's son Jeff (Michael Shaara died). I think "Gettysburg" was easier to do both as a movie and a book because the time scale was compressed to just the few days of the battle and those immediately preceding them. "Gods and Generals" (the movie) tried to cover 2 years of the war and IIRC pretty much ignored the point of view of one of the principle players in the war during that time: General George McClellan (along with Ambrose Burnside and Joseph Hooker) . It left out half of the story of the war (to say nothing of leaving out all of the fighting in the West) such that much of what is left becomes incomprehensible. Lee and Jackson's reputations owed a great deal to the missteps and fears of the Union commanders who faced them. The movie "Gettysburg" works without the commander (mostly) of The Army of the Potomac because it was mostly a "soldier's battle" from the Union perspective: strategic direction didn't matter to the movie's plot, the Union tactical commanders and Confederate mistakes determined the victory (the high quality and motivation of the common soldier on both sides only made the battle bloodier rather than contributing to the victory of one over the other).

Another advantage that "Gettysburg" had over "Gods and Generals" is that over 10,000 amateur Civil War re-enactors (rather than extras) took part in making the movie. The uniforms are authentic, the tactics are authentic because they take great pride in transforming themselves into their historical counterparts. I believe that over 5,000 participated in the reenactment of Picketts Charge. The only artillery barrage ever fired in North America which was bigger than the one preceding Pickett's Charge in the movie "Gettysburg" was the artillery barrage that preceded the real Pickett's Charge during the real Battle of Gettysburg. Gods and Generals used computers. Not the same...not as good.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 12:38:48 AM

StK

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@spence
Thank you. The only of those things that I picked up when watching it was the accelerated time and the focus on one theater of the movie, which irritated me a little but was in my view offset by the depicting of character, although I wouldn't know if it was done properly (I only know so much about the Generals that fought in that war). For the really detailed stuff, my knowledge about uniforms and the likes in the American Civil War simply isn't good enough. I will watch it again keeping those points in mind.

Another thing is I simply can't get my head around the tactics used from the Napoleonic Era up until the American Civil War. Especially in the American Civil War because of the technological advances of weaponry.

< Message edited by StK -- 8/22/2012 1:03:30 AM >

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 12:53:28 AM

treespider

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Sitting here with my bud and he suggested Battleground and Hell is for Heroes.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 12:55:18 AM

treespider

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Another is A Walk in the Sun

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 12:58:09 AM

spence

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Q: Who's battles filled every military textbook in the 1830's, 40's and 50's?
A: Napoleon

Q: Who did all those Union and Confederate generals fight in Mexico?
A: Santa Anna, (self-styled) Napoleon of the West

Q: What technological advance happened right after they'd gained all that experience in Mexico?
A: Mr Minie invented his bullet that allowed for the rapid loading of a rifled musket and an increase in effective range of the ordinary soldier's weapon by a factor of 5.

Q: Guess what didn't matter much on the tactical scale any more?
A: All that theoretical learning from school AND all that experience with battle in Mexico.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:18:17 AM

StK

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@spence:
I know all that. I know Napoleons tactics where the ones that filled the military textbook. It really isn't meant disrespectful to anybody, because of course its me reflecting on this with 20/20 hindsight. But never mind those theoretical aspects your soldiers know they can fire their weapon with good accuracy and reload at a rather quick rate, so they have to know something like Picketts charge won't work unless you have vastly superior numbers (and then it won't end pretty). Advancing in the open against people in defensive positions with accurate firearms is certain death.

I also think that there was the thought of that war was always fought like this and something so simple as a musket shouldn't be able to change the rules so quickly and so completely. A thought which has its merits but it didn't stand the test of the battlefield.

Again I mean no disrespect and I never was a soldier (I served a year in the Red Cross instead) I simply can not imagine myself in the position of those soldiers.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:24:15 AM

pmelheck1

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I know someone stated earlier that they didn't like we were soldiers but I and my wife liked it very much. My wife liked it as it's the only movie I can recall off the top of my head that depicts the folks at home in quite the same depth. My wife was a brat and she liked this aspect of the film very much. As for my I liked 2 points. First was the Sgt Major. I knew some folks just like him very humorous for me ... Second thing I liked is that it didn't try to portray soldiers and vets as burned out losers. I am sick to death of these movies portraying all vets as losers who are incapable of surviving out side the military or are thieves, losers, perverts, mentally unstable, ect, ect, ect.

I do not believe that to be a good war movie it must have a anti war/anti military theme. Not all do but more then a few do.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:24:51 AM

Justus2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

@spence:
I know all that. I know Napoleons tactics where the ones that filled the military textbook. It really isn't meant disrespectful to anybody, because of course its me reflecting on this with 20/20 hindsight. But never mind those theoretical aspects your soldiers know they can fire their weapon with good accuracy and reload at a rather quick rate, so they have to know something like Picketts charge won't work unless you have vastly superior numbers (and then it won't end pretty). Advancing in the open against people in defensive positions with accurate firearms is certain death.

I also think that there was the thought of that war was always fought like this and something so simple as a musket shouldn't be able to change the rules so quickly and so completely. A thought which has its merits but it didn't stand the test of the battlefield.

Again I mean no disrespect and I never was a soldier (I served a year in the Red Cross instead) I simply can not imagine myself in the position of those soldiers.

I agree with Spence, years of training and experience are hard to overcome, the whole 'refight the last war' mentality that has vexed commanders for generations. Look at the French in WWII, even with the changes in aircraft and tanks, their strategy and doctrine did not change much.

Another reason I have read about for the amount of bloodshed (the 'advancing in the open to certain death') from the Civil War was that most regiments were made up of volunteers, generally from the same areas. While there is always the 'peer pressure' not to run or desert in front of your brothers in arms, that was multiplied by the fact that they weren't just fellow Soldiers, but they were your brothers, cousins, and neighbors. If they advanced, and you fled, everyone in your town, your own family, would know you had 'turned coward'. Very powerful motivation to stick it through.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:45:41 AM

StK

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Now I derailed the topic myself

.
I don't really want to go down this path because it might hurt someones feelings with a remark that was never meant that way.
I apologize if someone feels offended.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:53:09 AM

pmelheck1

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I haven't seen any ugliness currently, but it has left the u-boat and submarine movie and has moved into the war movie area. Not a bad thing as their is certainly a lot more war movies than submarine movies. Any time personal taste enters into any form of discussion sometimes things can get a bit heated. Some one defending their reason for liking or disliking a particular item can be enlightening as long as it is kept civil.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:59:39 AM

spence

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I remember reading some book many years ago by a Colonel Dupuy (IIRC)who's claim to fame was the analysis of all manner of statistics pertaining to warfare.

One of his graphs; which plotted %casualties vs numbers of soldiers engaged throughout recorded history showed a steady decline throughout human history except for one period during which there was a very pronounced bump. That large bump in what was really a pretty smooth declining curve encompassed the 60 years between 1855-1915 immediately following the widespread introduction of rifled weapons.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 2:12:56 AM

StK

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no I didn't mean that it went to war movies in general, I'm fine with that .. people should be able to cope with the fact that someone doesn't like a movie which they think is good.

But a discussion about the validity of decisions concerning military aspects might rub people the wrong way. It often goes to things like national pride (it shouldn't .. but it might).

edit: I'm really not concerned by this (Maybe because I'm Austrian). Austria never managed to achieve much with its military hence the saying:
Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria nube.
Nam quae Mars aliis, dat tibi diva Venus.
(Roughly translated to:
Others shall fight wars, you oh' lucky Austria shall marry.
What Mars gives to the others, Venus shall give to you.)
But I also have a hard time knowing when others feel offended by such things.

< Message edited by StK -- 8/22/2012 2:20:42 AM >

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 2:48:37 AM

Q-Ball

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Even though it's not a movie per se, Band of Brothers was extremely good American war film making.....really strong. It was alot better than The Pacific, which was merely OK.

Das Boot certainly rocks, and stands the test of time

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 2:59:06 AM

Canoerebel

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Regarding Gods and Generals:

I saw this movie so many years ago (nine?) that I am left with one specific memory about why I didn't like it plus a very strong general dislike.

The specific memory is that the movie tried very, very hard, and very, very awkwardly to portray Stonewall Jackson in a positive light with respect to his regard for a slave. The whole think was very poorly done. (Contrast this to Gettysburg, which seemlessly worked in some of the issues underlying the war, doing a fine job of doing so from both sides.)

I wanted to like Gods and Generals. I loved Gettysburg. My family was out of town when G&G came out. I went to the movie by myself on a Saturday afternoon, pepared to savor the experience (no interruptions for questions!)....and just found it an awful movie.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 3:02:43 AM

StK

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As my girlfriend is away on a "girls-night", and I can't sleep for whatever reason, I decided to watch "Waterloo" again. I didn't recognize it when I watched it the first time but the hatred the Russians depict in this movie towards the Prussians is amazing.
First of all the music that is playing when the Prussians arrive on the battlefield is worthy of the music for when the Death Star appears.
Secondly Bl�cher is depicted as a completely incompetent drunk who encourages his troops to slaughter everybody and give no quarter.
and the English are depicted as somewhat incompetent.
The Cold War and the 2nd World War might have had some influence on that I wonder?

@Canoerebel: If that was out of character for him then it was really something that lowers the quality of the movie. I don't know much about the personalities behind the generals of the American Civil War (as I said before) so I thought it was maybe an anecdote that was known about him.

< Message edited by StK -- 8/22/2012 3:08:40 AM >

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 3:31:52 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gods and Generals was terrible. Honestly. Just terrible.

I'm not much of a Civil War fan in general, but I kind of liked it. Gettysburg was good too.

I'm surprised that Cold Mountain doesn't rankle your sensibilities WRT Civil War movies, Canoerebel.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 3:38:49 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Even though it's not a movie per se, Band of Brothers was extremely good American war film making.....really strong. It was alot better than The Pacific, which was merely OK.

Das Boot certainly rocks, and stands the test of time

Agree about Band of Brothers. I liked Saving Private Ryan very much too. I thought The Pacific was on par with both and it was a nice marriage of Helmet for my Pillow and With the Old Breed's story lines.

WRT the original premise: that American war movie making has turned to crap, I respectfully disagree. As Canoerebel has stated-there are many examples of good modern war movies. Sure, there's some stinkers out there too, but you take the good with the bad.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 6:12:47 AM

StK

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It seems I still can't sleep. I shall not tell my girlfriend about this, I would never be able to live it down.

@chickenboy: "...turned to crap" is certainly putting it harsh. But the examples Canoerebel gave are 20 years old now (or even older). Band of Brothers and The Pacific aren't movies which I think has an influence and I already said I don't agree with Pvt Ryan and Valkyrie. I don't say there aren't any good ones produced any more (Letters from Ivo Jima for example) but they get rarer and rarer. It feels a little like the search for gems in a lot of stone. And it's not limited to warmovies.
edit: I also shouldn't have said Americans because it happens all over the place but most of the movies we get to see in our cinemas are American.

@mulk:

quote:

I do not believe that to be a good war movie it must have a anti war/anti military theme. Not all do but more then a few do.

No it doesn't have to but in my opinion it should refrain from glorifying it and I think walking this narrow line is very very difficult.

< Message edited by StK -- 8/22/2012 6:24:46 AM >

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 6:43:06 AM

JeffroK

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I dont think G&G was bad, just too long.

Having read the writings of the time it seems to have tried to capture this rather than convert it to 21st Century speak.

Spence mentioned ANZAC, are you talking about the mini series??
This was very good, take out 10% Pommy bashing (which did occur so it could be correct, plus Bill (a Pommie Deserter) is one of the heroes.

Gallipoli was just too wierd a set of stories, but the attitude of the British to the "Colonials" and their reply happened in real life, as always movies play on on these things.

Remember that at the start of WW2 many British Generals still thought us only good for Garrison duties.

The LightHorsemen would be the better of these, too much of a love story though, but family attachments to Bouchier (Lt Horse Colonel) and Grant (Light Horse Brigadier) brings it closer.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 7:48:32 AM

John 3rd

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Loved Gettysburg. Magnificent and Breathtaking in scope. Thank goodness for those reenactors! They FORCED the film crews to do it right.

Band of Brothers is magnificent. Love Enemy Below and Run Silent, Run Deep. How about A Bridge Too Far?

Gotta love the accuracy of Kelly's Heroes as well. EPIC film!

OK. Threw that out just to rile up Dan...

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 8:00:22 AM

CaptBeefheart

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Some good flicks mentioned. "Kelly's Heroes" I would consider an interesting heist movie, not to be confused with WWII reality. On that level it's a classic, with Rickles and Eastwood essentially playing themselves.

A German buddy once let me borrow a great Soviet WWII movie (probably shot in the 70s) that was quite realistic. They even actually hit a cow with an MG42. Maybe someone knows the name.

It's too bad everything is computer graphics any more. Such movies look totally unrealistic and also substitute "gee-whiz" CGI for old-fashioned plot and character development. Gone are the days when they'd assemble 15 B-25s for "Catch-22."

Cheers,
CC

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 9:08:26 AM

Historiker

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A bridge too far, Battle of Britain, Letters from Iwo Jima come to mind.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 9:20:15 AM

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Google 'Talvisota' on youtube and find the tank killing scene.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 10:28:50 AM

pmelheck1

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I love Kelly's Heros because of Oddball. Love the tanks coming out of the tunnel and demolishing a railroad station. Some of his quotes are also great as well, something about a hero being some kind of weird sandwich.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 11:56:15 AM

Omat

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Pear Harbour by Michael Bay of course..there was never a so historical Film

*run away .... Duck and Cover*

I think now I am a "leper" here in this forum

Omat

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 1:40:30 PM

Shellshock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Pear Harbour by Michael Bay of course..there was never a so historical Film

*run away .... Duck and Cover*

I think now I am a "leper" here in this forum

Omat

Oh no. Japan bombs America's sleeping laundry lines.

On the subject of Das Boot, perhaps the film's biggest critic was the former Kriegsmarine correspondent who wrote the novel it was based on. Lothar-Gunther Buchheim had a big falling out with the director, Wolfgang Petersen. Uttering concerns about the end result, Buchheim felt that unlike his clearly anti-war novel the adaptation was "another re-glorification and re-mystification" of the German World War II U-boat war, German heroism and nationalism. He called the film a cross between a "cheap, shallow American action flick" and a "contemporary German propaganda newsreel from World War II".

Buchheim was by all accounts a bit touchy too.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 2:07:08 PM

StK

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@Shellshock:
really? I didn't know that.
But to call this movie a glorification of the U-Boot war seems... well I honestly think he saw a different movie.
The KaLeu (Captain Lieutenant - submarine Commander) calls the U-Boot war a "Childrens Crusade" where his sailors should still be breastfed and not being forced to fight a war.
The scene where U-96 gives the "Fangschuss" (coup-de-grace?) to the freighter with the British sailors jumping out burning and the Germans let them die in the water can hardly be called glorifying and I'm always close to crying when the U-Boot backs slowly out of the picture at the end of the scene.
And the last scenes after the air-raid where nothing is left of the welcome group that greeted them when they came into the harbor because everybody is either killed or running for is live... It's hard to call that glorious.

The movie as a whole is so full of desperation. I really can't see a problem with glorification there... and usually I'm picky about this sort of thing.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 2:22:16 PM

Shellshock

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

The movie as a whole is so full of desperation. I really can't see a problem with glorification there... and usually I'm picky about this sort of thing.

Buchhiem, (who died at 89 in 2007) was by all accounts a very thorny personality. It's possible that no version of his book might have pleased him. I recall his biggest quibbles were the scenes of shouting and hysteria which he claims would have been unprofessional on a U-Boat. Plus, he was unhappy with the scene where Lt. Werner is smacked in the face with an oily rag by a member of the crew. Buchhiem says that sort of insubordination also would have been unacceptable on a U-Boat at war.

However, in a film some degree of artistic license is needed as well to portray a story. You can't be 100% realistic.

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RE: Movies like "Das Boot"? - 8/22/2012 2:48:08 PM

Biggus63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

quote:

ORIGINAL: StK

The movie as a whole is so full of desperation. I really can't see a problem with glorification there... and usually I'm picky about this sort of thing.

Buchhiem, (who died at 89 in 2007) was by all accounts a very thorny personality. It's possible that no version of his book might have pleased him. I recall his biggest quibbles were the scenes of shouting and hysteria which he claims would have been unprofessional on a U-Boat. Plus, he was unhappy with the scene where Lt. Werner is smacked in the face with an oily rag by a member of the crew. Buchhiem says that sort of insubordination also would have been unacceptable on a U-Boat at war.

However, in a film some degree of artistic license is needed as well to portray a story. You can't be 100% realistic.

It's understandable that the people who lived through these things are touchy about anything they see as not portraying what they know happened. Lieutenant Colonel John Frost, he of the British 1st Airborne at Arnhem, was most unhappy about that wonderful scene in 'A Bridge too Far' where the British respond to the German proposal that surrender be discussed with the reply that they don't have the proper facilities to take all the Germans prisoner. Not how it happened, says Frost. Apparently a captured Brit was sent with the message, not a German, and when Frost made it apparent that the answer would be no the Brit in question asked whether he really had to return with the message, to which Frost replied, "No, you can stay. I think they'll get the message."

To you or I there's not a lot to object to about that scene in the film but to Frost it was plainly completely beyond the pale, and who are we to question that? His recollections about that moment must be horrific, trying to balance the dual responsibilities of fighting his unit and trying to ensure the best possible situation for his large number of badly wounded men. When you've gone through something like that I doubt any movie depiction is going to please you. More likely it reminds you of stuff you would rather stayed forgotten.

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