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Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/30/2012 8:02:49 AM

jpwrunyan

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From: Uranus
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There are none! (insert rick-roll)

Seriously, has anyone used corporate nationalism to any good effect? I tried and found it was still worse than useless. I will say right now I think Corporate Nationalism needs fixing.

Here was the situation. I had researched advanced research and had about 70k in the bank. I wanted to build the 100k wonder before someone else did. I had two colonies at this point, one still developing and at negative revenue. My government was despotism because despots rule! Literally.

My state income was a measely 1k. It was going to take forevah to get that 100k. Hmm.. My private sector has cash though... How can I get it? My tax rate is maxed... No planets to colonize and suck cash from the civies through spaceport revenue... No way am I changing to republic. I am the despot!

Then it struck me. Nationalize everything! Whats mine is mine and whats yours is also mine! Corporate Nationalism. I made the switch and cranked taxes to 100%. My state revenue is now +10k. I should have my 100k in no time. Except that after a year my funds are actually wilting. This is sort of a complaint about the income readout, but why does it say +10k while my funds go down? This actually happens frequently and it pisses me off. But I digress. Annoyed that Corporate Nationalism did NOT give me any short term boost as promised and instead was somehow costing me money from the get-go I reloaded and stayed with despotism. In a years time I had more money than I did with Corporate Nationalism.

Seems to me the advantage of corporate nationalism should be to accomplish the very thing I wanted to accomplish above. IE a short term surge of money at the expense of long term growth and happiness. It didnt even do that. Is this government type utterly useless (in which case why have it in the game?) or did I use it wrong. Has anyone EVER used it to some positive effect?

I think in my case the maintenance penalty is what undermined my tax revenue, which makes me suggest the maintenance penalty should be eliminated. The corruption, income, and growth penalties are surely enough? Combined with the nasty stuff that happens when you switch (my leader gained "addict") and when you try to revert back (revolts).

Post #: 1

RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/30/2012 12:53:39 PM

WoodMan

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I've never used Corporate Nationalism, and I did consider going into the game files and disabling it to help the Human and Ketarov AI, lol.

However, quick point on what you did and maybe why you are losing cash:

What exactly does Corporate Nationalism do? Does it give your private sector income directly to the state while in use? If so, there is no point in setting your taxes to 100%. Remember, your taxes come from the private sector. The higher you set them, the less money your private sector will make, and then it will retire ships to avoid losing money, but that will cause it to shrink too and your provate sector will basically die. So, if you are adding your private sector income to your public sector I guess killing off the private sector by maxing taxes to 100% is a really bad idea! I don't know if this is what happens, I'm just guessing. I know with all other governments raising taxes too high will kill the private sector, I accidently reduced my private sector to nothing but two small freighters in my last save game, lol.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 12:32:15 AM

jpwrunyan

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I initially thought what you did: Corporate Nationalism instantly gives you private sector's money. It doesn't. That would be too powerful. You could just turn it on, buy stuff, and turn it off. Cororate Nationalism essentially makes tax rate irrelevant to happiness. So taxing 100% has no effect on your colonies. Think of the Securians. Utopian Paradise is a de facto form of Corporate Nationalism since they also can often be taxed at 100%. Anyway, CN makes it so that all private sector revenue is yours (if you tax it). Unfortunately it seems to accomplish nothing. Which is why I must be using it wrong, or it is complete junk. I think it's yet another DW feature that is broken. But I am hoping someone here can show me I am wrong. In my experience, it does not work as advertised.

(in reply to WoodMan)

Post #: 3

RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 2:05:17 AM

WoodMan

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I don't get what you mean by accomplishes nothing? You mean nothing happens? Or you didn't benefit from it? I've played with Shandar taxed at 99% it worked well, if corporate nationalism does the same thing I'd say it works just fine. Just like with Utopian Paradise though, you will have to turn it off to save your private sector eventually.

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Post #: 4

RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 4:19:29 AM

jpwrunyan

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Utopian Paradise often allows you to tax at 100% without any negative impact to your growth.
Corporate Nationalism allows you to tax at 100% with significant negative impact to your growth.

The point of using Corporate Nationalism (as I see it) is that taxing at 100% *should* bring an influx of wealth from the private sector, although your maintenance costs and corruption go up while your growth and colony income go down. Again, short term profit at the expense of long term profit. Normally you wouldnt want to do this. But sometimes I DO want to do this. For example, to build something now now NOW.

However, in reality CN did not increase the money in my state coffers over a year's time. By contrast, the status -quo despotism did. I aver that that is $&:@-up. So CN accomplished nothing. Unless you want to say it accomplished worse than nothing.

Let me try an analogy: you are a jet pilot (whee!). Your fighter-jet has afterburners. Using the afterburners is not efficient in the long run and puts wear and tear on the machine, but it will supposedly give you a burst of speed. Now pretend that after hitting the afterburners, instead of going faster, you actually slow down. Now pretend that your speedometer is *telling* you you are going faster but by looking out the window you can *see* you are slowing down. Now you understand what happened in my game. Not only was I losing money, I was losing money while the game was telling me I was making money.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 12:49:30 PM

Apheirox

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I doubt that is what is happening - that you aren't making extra money, that is. What is more likely going on is your expenses are so high even with 100% taxes you can't pay the upkeep. I played a few rounds of the Conflict! quick game galaxy using the Ketarovs yesterday. Based on these games it isn't correct what you say: I did indeed get all of the private sector GDP as taxes. What went on, however, was that because I started out with an enormous amount of ships (easily the biggest military in the galaxy by a large margin), the upkeep from this fleet ate the entire extra income from the 100% taxation. The only way I could thus survive economically was to immediately assault some other empire (which I did) but even so I didn't start out with extra troops (and no troop ships, either) so my invasion was greatly impeded - long enough for my economy to crash, it will literally take just a few years. I think that's where the problem lies, it simply burns itself down too fast to be worthwhile.

As you also point out Utopian Paradise can often be much superior in that it simply makes people so happy you can run 100% taxes anyway, but without the crashing. It does seem a little overpowered.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 2:13:00 PM

WoodMan

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no, Utopian Paradise does cause the crash if you tax that high, that was what I was saying above

I believe this is how things work. You have private income. If you set taxes to 30%, 30% of that private income becomes state income. So, if you have a Utopian Paradise and you tax at 100% you will have no private sector income, the private sector will not run at a loss, it retires ships to prevent that. It will eventually retire itself out of existence and your empire will crash because you have no goods or people being transported so you can not build anything.

Utopian Paradise is not overpowered. The best race in the game is the Gizurean, which shows that maintenence savings and population growth are what make for a strong empire

(At least when under AI control)!

< Message edited by WoodMan -- 8/31/2012 2:15:11 PM >

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 2:35:50 PM

Theluin

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Yes Utopian Paradise does cause a crash at 100% taxes but still you can tax just a bit lower and avoid the crash.

And that means that Utopian Paradise is better at allowing you to set taxes as high as you want than CN, without the GIANT drawbacks of CN.
Meaning that Utopian Paradise is better than CN at what is in fact the only advantage of having CN.

So it is in fact not a case of Utopian Paradise being overpowered but CN being seriously underpowered.

< Message edited by Theluin -- 8/31/2012 2:36:37 PM >

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 3:35:40 PM

Nedrear

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I made an AAR... well only started it actually. I played sucessfully as a CN.

Though it is challenging, your only mistake was to use 100% tax all the time. You increase it when your private sector is happy to around 90% and if they need more ships you reduce it to around 50%.

Overall my results were:

I got a summary of all "accidents" of a corporate nationalism. I will sort after severity:

Pro

Free choice of taxes without mali greater than -5 to happiness

Contra

Research breakdown to 20% capacity over time [after 6 years reached!] (no competitive labs, only your companys labs. This lowers overall effectiveness. One research, one result, no critics... bad!)
Culture limit at 50% WITHOUT bonuses. Therefore it can be increased by ressource or wonder (monotone society)
- 15% colony income (no free trade, no real impulse)
- 30% growth rate (well it's a bad life in the lower classes. Work, pay, eat, work, die... Don't give that to your kids!)
- 15% research speed (no competition for the goal and no motivation)
- 5 happiness even on low taxes
+ 10% maintenance cost (no cheaper products only those of your company)
+ 20% Corruption (typical bribing into positions)

CONCLUSION:

Corporate Nationalism, a real challenge and a lot of roleplay fun! It is logical, since we are not talking about the Krupp Works giving the worker recreation and fun and a house but we talk about the fact of the speculators finally owning all the markets and giving you **** to life. This is a company ruling distopia!

Everyone wanting and whining for a challenge, this one will give you all taxes you want in exchange for 4/5 of your potential research and half your development! But you can win this!

One word "1984" and YOU are big brother!

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 4:14:44 PM

jpwrunyan

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Nedrear, welcome back. I am interested in your aar. At the moment I dont want to play CN as a handicap but rather as a way to get income without resorting to OP government types and/or trading tech. Personally, I consider UP to be OP and tech sale as an exploit. But on the other extreme permanent CN I consider to be suicide. Please note in my case I just wanted to milk 30k from the private sector asap. They had 80k+ at tje time so I doubt there was any risk of decomissioned private sector ships. I am just annoyed that CN didnt boost my bottom line at all and that whatever costs were depleting my savings werent shown in the upper right readout. I mean if I am losing money the game should tell me so.

To be clear, I am indeed complaining about two distinct things here. Bit drunk at the moment so guarantees as to clarity.

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Post #: 10

RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 4:24:58 PM

Theluin

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I've just run a test game with CN and it doesn't raise your income at all (I was loosing money with a positive cashflow of 10k [I know it's low but it was early game

]).

To be sure I loaded up one of my earlier games I got bored with (Humans with a few dozen colonies, late game) and switched to CN. Instead of rising my cashflow dropped significantly (I did set the taxes to 100% after switching to CN).

I suspect that is due to several reasons:
-Culture affects income (And CN decreases it by 50%)
-Culture affects max population and population affects income (As above)
-the -15% to colony income
-the maintenance increase
-the corruption increase
-all of the above outweighing the increased taxes

I agree with Nedrear that CN gives one a real challenge and RP fun, however those are it's only advantages as it doesn't even give one a short term boost.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 4:48:38 PM

Nedrear

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Such negative forms of goverment should be increased ingame and be added as a potential outcome after an event which can't be changed for X years. It would diversify the game alot if you have to prevent a coup de etat or live with the consequences. And goverments like an Utopia should be more prone to sudden violent usurpers as they are not necessarily ready to counter them. That would give the game apart of an RP feeling a deeper impression. As of now where everyone can change their goverment at will it really seems rather useless having a CN in there.

Event example:

The privat sector reaches 10 times the amount of your own income and still gets attacked because you dont defend it. It will start building their own military ships. If they start to outweigh you, they declare a takeover war. If you "give up" you will become a CN.

< Message edited by Nedrear -- 8/31/2012 4:49:23 PM >

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 8/31/2012 7:42:31 PM

Pipewrench

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Cheers jpwrunyan and Nedrear,

I will have to give this one a try. It looks very interesting and very challenging.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 9/1/2012 4:30:13 AM

jpwrunyan

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So I supppse in the end judgment of CN's value in the game comes down to each person's perspective and the designer's original intent. As a horrible form of government with no benefits and severe handicaps, it succeeds. But if they intended CN to be a useful tool exclusive to humans and keterov, then it is seriously failing at that. I really wanted it to be a useful tool because I like the idea of putting your state income on afterburners and I have a real use for it early game.

UP and the other race exclusive gov types are decidedly useful. Why no love for us would-be Fascists?

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 9/1/2012 4:46:50 AM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nedrear

Such negative forms of goverment should be increased ingame and be added as a potential outcome after an event which can't be changed for X years. It would diversify the game alot if you have to prevent a coup de etat or live with the consequences. And goverments like an Utopia should be more prone to sudden violent usurpers as they are not necessarily ready to counter them. That would give the game apart of an RP feeling a deeper impression. As of now where everyone can change their goverment at will it really seems rather useless having a CN in there.

Event example:

The privat sector reaches 10 times the amount of your own income and still gets attacked because you dont defend it. It will start building their own military ships. If they start to outweigh you, they declare a takeover war. If you "give up" you will become a CN.

But wouldn't the outcome of a 'corporate' take over more likely result in an oligarchy or a feudal system with each corporation claiming its own turf? That outcome is potentially even worse than the corporate nationalism, where everything is owned by the state. The corporations would likely break up and fight amongst themselves for control of resources.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 9/1/2012 5:14:36 AM

malkuth74

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Of course Coporate thing doesn't work at 100% tax.. How the hell are citizens going to buy ships, update ships, buy products if your taxing all there profits at 100%.

Set a more reasonable tax rate and things should work out. Who the hell would think taxing someone at 100% would actually work. Someone has to pay the bills.

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RE: Corporate Nationalism success stories - 9/1/2012 11:18:11 AM

Nedrear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
But wouldn't the outcome of a 'corporate' take over more likely result in an oligarchy or a feudal system with each corporation claiming its own turf? That outcome is potentially even worse than the corporate nationalism, where everything is owned by the state. The corporations would likely break up and fight amongst themselves for control of resources.

It would not be owned by a "state" de jure. The corporation would own all the land and therefore set all internal laws.
For your information since our Federal Republic of Germany still did not recreate a constitution since WW II we are listed as the most sucessful corporation under a LLCA (Limited Liability Companies Act). That aside...

Yes the goverment would be a company oligarchy. But these would just form a huge board of directores, electing one of their own as the World CEO. In this regard they share the market and everyone specializes in something. It woudl still be run as one giant corporation.

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Post #: 17