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RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14 October 2012

 
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RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 6:44:56 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		The sweeps have always had one big section and a small 2-3 plane section after (and in rare occasions before).

Now the small section seems to come more often before the larger group and there are three separate sections for a single group sweep, which I've not seen before.

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Post #: 211
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 7:49:08 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Ask Castor Troy about the 3 plane sweeps, it was one of his many "complaints"

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Post #: 212
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 8:28:21 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		I haven't seen anything different in the latest beta...  But if it was like that... a air model with lots of smaller encounters is exactly what we'd need!


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Post #: 213
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 9:59:17 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		GJ, Sure that would be great...If the escorts fragmented too. But having 15 of 20 fragments go in completely without escort isn´t much fun...

Besides, almost completely doing away with coordination will have huge consequences. If this is an intentional change I´m pretty appalled it gets implemented without hesitation and even informing the players. Making even tiny adjustments on a game of this scale is extremely complex. To just throw in such a massive change can upset the balance enormously.

Am I the only one seeing how much this would change in the game?!? This kills offensive bombings! Think through what that will mean in terms of the game before applauding it. This will have enormous benefits to whoever is on the defensive. This have the potential to remove bombings of any kind in a area where there is a risk CAP can be present. I´m sure some Jap players rub their hand with delight seeing how much that would neuter the 4Es.

But consider the Jap early game with fragile bombers getting fragmented into 10 plane pieces. Or that massive Betty strike coming in in waves of 5-15 planes against a CV CAP...

This is just crazy...





(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 214
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 1:24:34 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Even though I have a more hopeful, positive idea of what this might do to the game, I completely agree with Jocke. I'm still wondering if it is a mistake or a bug caused by another change. If it's not, it's a massive difference in the very essence of the game. This has the potential to be a good thing but could have very unseen consequences that change everything, in some cases for the worse.

The general scope of these betas as I understand them is to fix small issues, bugs, technical details, not the larger game structures. As are all of the players, I'm very appreciative of the efforts that go into these fixes, changes and additions. I am just hoping for some clarification about this issue and the possible ramifications. I know we don't have to use this beta, but there is a lot in it that is really useful and good. I want to use those things, but I'm not sure if we can if this fragmentation works as it has in the first few efforts, mainly because we didn't start the game under these conditions, and it's such a big change that could make switching now unfair.

Any response on this would be much appreciated, not just from Michael but from anyone else noticing the issue.


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Post #: 215
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 1:26:45 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I have not noticed that at all after I have updated my games. Everything have stayed same for me in 2 ongoing games vs. AI.

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Post #: 216
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 2:24:48 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I have not noticed that at all after I have updated my games. Everything have stayed same for me in 2 ongoing games vs. AI.


I should note we used the one posted on 14/10/12: 1119a

If we each installed it independently, and Jocke has done tests to determine that this works outside our game itself in the sandbox, it seems it must be at least existent in this version of the new patch.

Koniu also mentioned to me that he had seen increases in fragmentation of raids in his game.

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Post #: 217
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 2:59:07 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Even though I have a more hopeful, positive idea of what this might do to the game, I completely agree with Jocke. I'm still wondering if it is a mistake or a bug caused by another change. If it's not, it's a massive difference in the very essence of the game. This has the potential to be a good thing but could have very unseen consequences that change everything, in some cases for the worse.

The general scope of these betas as I understand them is to fix small issues, bugs, technical details, not the larger game structures. As are all of the players, I'm very appreciative of the efforts that go into these fixes, changes and additions. I am just hoping for some clarification about this issue and the possible ramifications. I know we don't have to use this beta, but there is a lot in it that is really useful and good. I want to use those things, but I'm not sure if we can if this fragmentation works as it has in the first few efforts, mainly because we didn't start the game under these conditions, and it's such a big change that could make switching now unfair.

Any response on this would be much appreciated, not just from Michael but from anyone else noticing the issue.



You certainly have a way with words that I lack.

+1


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 218
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/17/2012 3:23:09 PM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Koniu also mentioned to me that he had seen increases in fragmentation of raids in his game.


Yes i do. Before patch usually Docup raids look like that.
3-4 waves of bombers. Now those same bombers arrive in 10-15
We are playing 17e patch.

I waiting if someone will do test how it work with CV strikes coordination.
Last turn Docup have one coordinated CV strike vs my cruisers but low numbers of planes was taking part in it (80 planes). So i do not know how it will work with lets say 500 planes




< Message edited by koniu -- 10/17/2012 3:27:08 PM >

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Post #: 219
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 3:21:58 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Any other games reporting this?  I'm only counting 3 so far .... while I understand for those three games it appears to be a big, that's not too conclusive.  I've run now 5 turns ... not seeing any difference of note ...

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Pax

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Post #: 220
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 7:48:28 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I count four games.

As you say thats not very conclusive at all. I would think that indicates some kind of bug as its not affecting everyone. I´m going to try a clean install and see what happens.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 221
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 8:12:44 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Any other games reporting this?  I'm only counting 3 so far .... while I understand for those three games it appears to be a big, that's not too conclusive.  I've run now 5 turns ... not seeing any difference of note ...


I've been doing sandbox tests. The issue is most clear when you run the same settings in the same attacks with the official patch and the new one. I've been doing this many times with an attack by the IJ at Akyab and one at Port Moresby by the US 4Es. Although some turns the coordination is less pronounced due to weather or other factors, it is ALWAYS more coordinated with the official patch than with the new patch 1119a. I've got to a point where I am about to post in the specific thread, sometime later today when I have time.

Try a test.

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Post #: 222
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 9:16:02 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I did a new sandbox test with a clean install. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198512 Post #19. The differences between the official patch and the beta patch are obvious.

Would be really interesting if someone else that doesn´t have any problems would run a similar sandbox. I would think that everyone should suffer from the same problems as this sandbox was made with a clean install?

If someone who believes they are not suffering from the coordination issues would like to try a similar sandbox here is my setup:

1 level 9 AF, 1 AirHQ, 75 AS. 4 US squadrons of B25Cs. All with different HQs. None attached to the HQ at the base. Distance 4 hexes. Altitude 10k. Ground attack.

And before someone points out the HQ stuff I have tried attaching all squadrons to the same HQ and put the HQ at the same base. No discernible difference.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 223
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 11:12:26 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Only change between 1108r9 and this beta that would impact a/c packages would be the removal of the max cap of 250 AV.
Comparing code between r9 and beta for co-ordination the random chance was raised from 100 to 150. This seems to be due to the fact the 'command presence' often came out at 100+ which meant that co-ordination was a given.
Prior to beta, co-ordination was probably to high.
As this wasn't a planned fix, ....

< Message edited by michaelm -- 10/18/2012 1:04:27 PM >

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Post #: 224
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 11:16:52 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Hello Michael.

Then something unintentional has happened. Tests are very conclusive as detailed in this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198512

Cheers

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Post #: 225
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/18/2012 4:16:44 PM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline 		I think there is bug in rebuilding unit in new beta.
Link to separate threat
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3199206

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Post #: 226
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 11:01:46 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		Updated 1119b
restore original air strike co-ordination chance
fix rebuilding of editor sub-units clearing original parent unit

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Michael

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 227
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 11:30:52 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline 		Thanks Michaelm,
units are rebuilding now as they should.



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Post #: 228
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 12:29:27 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I did a new sandbox test with a clean install. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198512 Post #19. The differences between the official patch and the beta patch are obvious.

Would be really interesting if someone else that doesn´t have any problems would run a similar sandbox. I would think that everyone should suffer from the same problems as this sandbox was made with a clean install?

If someone who believes they are not suffering from the coordination issues would like to try a similar sandbox here is my setup:

1 level 9 AF, 1 AirHQ, 75 AS. 4 US squadrons of B25Cs. All with different HQs. None attached to the HQ at the base. Distance 4 hexes. Altitude 10k. Ground attack.

And before someone points out the HQ stuff I have tried attaching all squadrons to the same HQ and put the HQ at the same base. No discernible difference.

Other things that impact the initial co-ordination of a raid is like mission, same base, range to target, same altitude, nearby air Hq, group experience, lead group's leader air value, etc

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Post #: 229
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 1:57:04 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Updated 1119b




The download is not in the usual format. It contains the AE exe and a DLL, no install needed.

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Post #: 230
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 2:53:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Thanks again Michael!



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Post #: 231
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 4:32:38 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Updated 1119b
restore original air strike co-ordination chance
fix rebuilding of editor sub-units clearing original parent unit


I've got Base admin at Magwa over stacked 6 to 5. Three of the groups are a divided rec Chutai and all groups based there are from the same air HQ. According to the manual 'Split groups only count as individual groups if they are attached to different HQs'.

See attached

Attachment (1)

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 232
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 5:48:37 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Updated 1119b




The download is not in the usual format. It contains the AE exe and a DLL, no install needed.



Chris,
How did you configure this? I'm used to the normal installs for the beta, but as you say this doesn't have one. Running the executable, I just get "Error:Can't find PW data". I've tried moving the pwsdll around, but I'm still failing. What did you do to get this to work?

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 233
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 6:20:16 PM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Updated 1119b




The download is not in the usual format. It contains the AE exe and a DLL, no install needed.



Chris,
How did you configure this? I'm used to the normal installs for the beta, but as you say this doesn't have one. Running the executable, I just get "Error:Can't find PW data". I've tried moving the pwsdll around, but I'm still failing. What did you do to get this to work?


Unpack both files from 1119b zip to Beta2 folder and overwrite old files.
If this is first time beta installation create Beta2 folder in main game folder and unpack patch there
To run game use old beta shortcut from desktop or create new one or run directly .exe from Beta2 folder

< Message edited by koniu -- 10/19/2012 6:33:04 PM >

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Post #: 234
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 6:28:01 PM   
Quixote


Posts: 773
Joined: 8/14/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Thanks koniu. I'd tried that with the pws, but not with both...appreciate the help!

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 235
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 7:47:52 PM   
hades1001

 

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline 		when did the coordination chance changed and what has it been changed back to?

Thanks.

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Post #: 236
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 9:12:39 PM   
TheLoneGunman_MatrixForum


Posts: 312
Joined: 1/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

when did the coordination chance changed and what has it been changed back to?

Thanks.


This is what was said:


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Only change between 1108r9 and this beta that would impact a/c packages would be the removal of the max cap of 250 AV.
Comparing code between r9 and beta for co-ordination the random chance was raised from 100 to 150. This seems to be due to the fact the 'command presence' often came out at 100+ which meant that co-ordination was a given.
Prior to beta, co-ordination was probably to high.
As this wasn't a planned fix, ....


And it seems the "b" version has returned the code back to what it previously was.

(in reply to hades1001)
Post #: 237
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 9:50:20 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I have updated post #1 to have the proper installer. I must have clicked on the wrong file last night.

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Michael
Post #: 238
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/19/2012 11:09:58 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13500
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		While checking out Chris' overloaded AF issue, I noticed something that isn't correct in regard to this.
Groups of Chutai size are treated as 'small units' for the AF check purpose. Other small units are Section and Flight. A Chutai is not necessarily "small" compared to those types.
I am making the following change to bring the check into line with how it was suppose to be:
a) Remove group type of CHUTAI from small unit check for overloaded AF check
b) Add additional for any group with maximum size of <9 as a small unit for overloaded AF check


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Post #: 239
RE: Patch 07 - Unofficial Public Beta - 1119 updated 14... - 10/20/2012 10:49:18 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

While checking out Chris' overloaded AF issue, I noticed something that isn't correct in regard to this.
Groups of Chutai size are treated as 'small units' for the AF check purpose. Other small units are Section and Flight. A Chutai is not necessarily "small" compared to those types.
I am making the following change to bring the check into line with how it was suppose to be:
a) Remove group type of CHUTAI from small unit check for overloaded AF check
b) Add additional for any group with maximum size of <9 as a small unit for overloaded AF check


Thanks Michael.



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Pax

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Post #: 240
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