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WEEK 11 - 10/29/2012 1:47:39 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		WEEK 11 - 8/28/41

The AAR is now updated to the current situation.

Things are continuing to go in Saper's favor. Overall Red Army losses surpass 2 million and 80 rifle divisions destroyed. His advance to Leningrad is slowed a bit but the Germans are moving ever closer to the vital rail link supplying Leningrad.



North of Moscow, he continues to hold his pocket and threatens to envelop Moscow.



The worst blow is that he raids the rail lines behind Tula by driving north and cuts off the evacuation of the 29 arms factories there. As a small consolation, I pull all 15 vehicle factories from Moscow that should insure adequate tank and mech corps down the road (assuming we get that far )

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Post #: 31
RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 1:52:10 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

You fighting at all in the south? To be that far south that early is not possible unless you simply are not fighting?

If he can push on to Stalingrad then hes found a way around .13 for sure. As the railhead on turn 8 is 270 miles west of D-town.

I have seen in one of my games and I have to check the others now 3 panzer HQ's with 500+ fuel in them(42), which is not possible even after build ups now if .13 is working.

Mybee something is just plain broken as the railheads in the south are way past 20 hexes from the front, so fuel should be very low under normal .13.

But if for some reason HQ's are holding more then 200 pts of fuel now then muling is back and so are run away 41's again.




Yes, I am fighting in the south. In fact I've made some successful attacks north, center and south. But with my thinning units, I risk encirclement with these units. Here is a shot of his units and in some cases I've indicated the Off Rail MP and Off Rail Range next to some of his units in order to give you an idea how far ahead of his railheads he is operating.


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Post #: 32
RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 4:03:19 AM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		To look at this and not think something is "odd" one would have to be a complete moron.

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Post #: 33
RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 5:52:39 AM   
Baelfiin


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Status: offline 		How much air supply is flying in for those guys way out on the point?

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Post #: 34
RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 6:17:24 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

How much air supply is flying in for those guys way out on the point?



Excellent question Baelfiin, I would like to know the answer to this myself. Saper and I are wrapping up our current game and about to start a new one and I must admit I am very worried.

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Post #: 35
RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 6:25:38 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Yikes, he is really moving...

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Post #: 36
RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 10:13:38 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Perhaps Goring traveled to the future and brought back large transport planes that can carry panzers.

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RE: WEEK 10 - 10/29/2012 3:53:42 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Here are the air missions he has flown for the last three turns. You can see he actively attacks airfields and is even bombing Stalingrad.


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Post #: 38
RE: WEEK 7 - 10/29/2012 4:24:40 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

HQs caught in pockets are supposed to displace, not get destroyed.

Maybe you can look at the list of destroyed units, turn by turn, and list the HQs from there.


I reviewed the logs, and they were all miscellaneous air commands, i.e. Volga, Black Sea Fleet, etc.


< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 10/29/2012 4:25:16 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Turn 1 - 10/29/2012 7:28:52 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

North



Center



South







I have now received my first turn from Saper and, in my opinion, he has slightly improved on his above opening aginst you, particularly in the south. For example he has already captured not only Rovno, but also Proskurov.

Looking at the screen shot above it looks like you were able to move the 57th tank division which is usually frozen 5 hexes ESE of Rovno. How were you able to do this?

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Post #: 40
RE: Turn 1 - 10/30/2012 12:03:04 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		The 57th Tank Division assigned to STAVKA was in a reserve state and not frozen. I don't recall ever seeing units frozen in that area before.

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Post #: 41
RE: Turn 1 - 10/30/2012 1:09:41 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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Status: offline 		Really, my experience in all my games is that the 57th tank division (yes it is assigned to STAVKA) is always frozen in place (ie 0 mps) on the first turn. I thought maybe it was activated in your case because he ended his turn with a unit only 3 hexes away. In my case I think he converted a hex within 3 of the unit, but his nearest unit was 4 hexes away. I'll have to check when I get home from work.

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Post #: 42
RE: Turn 1 - 10/30/2012 11:31:22 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

[





I have now received my first turn from Saper and, in my opinion, he has slightly improved on his above opening aginst you, particularly in the south. For example he has already captured not only Rovno, but also Proskurov.

Looking at the screen shot above it looks like you were able to move the 57th tank division which is usually frozen 5 hexes ESE of Rovno. How were you able to do this?


I used to be able to do that opening but I thought that had been stopped by T1 rule changes a while back. I haven't played as german for a while so have not tested it. I thought I saw a recent AAR of Michael T's where he scaled back from this after the rule change but no doubt he can correct/confirm if he reads this.



It would appear rule changes did not do a good enough job. M60 is no noob, and it is taking the piss a bit if germans can still do this sort of thing; Pelton please note - but I see that he has..................

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Post #: 43
RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 12:05:23 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Well he's making me feel as though I'm in noob school again.

Maybe I'll give him something to think about if he bombs Stalingrad again. 150 fighters on two bases are now waiting nearby.



The STAVKA Strategic Reserve is being held back near Saratov despite the need for front line divisions.


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RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 12:41:27 AM   
smokindave34


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Status: offline 		I've never seen anything quite like this. The closest thing was when Michael T pushed me all the way back to Stalingrad in '41 - but that was a while back when muling was still allowed. Even then I don't believe he was at Rostov on turn 11! And with infantry as well!

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Post #: 45
RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 1:36:46 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		Under the most up to date version of the game such advances are possible if you throw every LB and Transport at one PzGp (and use them for nothing other than refuelling) and rotate Pz Cp HQ's (a form of chaining, but more involved) in a complex and AP hungry method. But I don't see how it could be maintained for so long on so many axis' of advance. I cannot explain it.

The opening in the south is possible. It is the scaled back version. Albeit an inefficient one.

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RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 2:18:27 AM   
forsyth

 

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Status: offline 		It's most likely from using most of the Luftwaffe for refueling like Michael T said. Check out these turn 10 screenshots from a current game.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by forsyth -- 10/31/2012 6:57:11 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 2:25:02 AM   
forsyth

 

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Attachment (1)

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Post #: 48
RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 9:23:27 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Under the most up to date version of the game such advances are possible if you throw every LB and Transport at one PzGp (and use them for nothing other than refuelling) and rotate Pz Cp HQ's (a form of chaining, but more involved) in a complex and AP hungry method. But I don't see how it could be maintained for so long on so many axis' of advance. I cannot explain it.

The opening in the south is possible. It is the scaled back version. Albeit an inefficient one.


Not sure thats even possible MT. If you look at rail head and where units were (turn 8), the airbases would be out of reach of supplies also. To be withen 20 Mp's, the distance from the airbase to front line HQ's is to far to beable to drop enough supplies to matter.


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RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 9:24:03 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Suppose you can trying bombing the Luftwaffe HQ's? ( if you agreed to allowing HQ bombing )

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Post #: 50
RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 9:29:24 AM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		Same goes for forsyth screen shot, airbases are far past railheads. Planes dont have the fuel to fly more then a single mission, in M60 game your talking next to Rostov turn 8. Which only means 7 turns of rail conversion.

Even with muling ect before .13 I was able to just make Stalino with a single raiding panzer unit, then follow up with more on turn 8 to clear a path to it.

Up until this screen shot, I beleive I was the only AAR posted that had anyone getting to Stalion on turn 7.

After .13 its easyer? Just doesn't fly in my book as possible after .13 and sht even before very hard.

Also next to Moscow turn 8? The best I have seen was several guys next to Moscow on turn 9 before .13.

M60 is a solid SHC player also, so its not like he let GHC just run wild.

Whats going on is hardly even possible doing muling/airbase depots ect ect, under current .13 ruleset its not possible.

Its kinda like when you play someone and they win 18-0 battles in 1942 as SHC for 6 turns in a row.

18-0
13-0
19-0
15-0
17-0
21-0

I am stupid, but not that stupid.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/31/2012 9:40:35 AM >

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RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 9:50:07 AM   
sillyflower


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Status: offline 		@ M60 I hope you play the next game ( if you still want to play him again) on the server. It can be accessed from Russia so you can allay any concerns Saper has about that

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Post #: 52
RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 12:43:26 PM   
gingerbread


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Status: offline 		M60: Why not simply ask Saper222 how he is doing it?

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RE: Turn 11 - 10/31/2012 12:50:03 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Status: offline 		This is simply ridiculous. I would give up. And yes, at least Saper is doing something positive: something should be fixed.

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Post #: 54
Collapse - 10/31/2012 12:59:51 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Well I held out a couple more turns than Speedy.

Moscow was surrounded and the rail to Leningrad cut. He's pretty much gotten around 75-80% of my army.

I've offered to surrender as there's no point continuing.

How he's doing it, I don't know. Using the Luftwaffe as a flying gas station is the right strategy when the ground units already have such a superiority in combat values. Adding them to ground support missions is almost superfluous.

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Post #: 55
RE: Collapse - 10/31/2012 1:11:13 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		After moving a few units...

Leningrad



Moscow


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RE: Collapse - 10/31/2012 2:00:53 PM   
forsyth

 

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Status: offline 		Regarding Pelton's comment about airbase distance from railhead:

Level bombers can only fly one resupply/refuel mission per turn anyway, right?



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Post #: 57
RE: Collapse - 10/31/2012 4:01:03 PM   
Baelfiin


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Status: offline 		I dont think it matters where your airbases are in relation to the railhead anyway for flying fuel and supply somewhere else

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"We are going to attack all night, and attack tomorrow morning..... If we are not victorious, let no one come back alive!" -- Patton
WITE-Beta
WITW-Alpha
The Logistics Phase is like Black Magic and Voodoo all rolled into one.

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Post #: 58
RE: Collapse - 10/31/2012 4:14:45 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: forsyth

Regarding Pelton's comment about airbase distance from railhead:

Level bombers can only fly one resupply/refuel mission per turn anyway, right?




forsyth,

In reference to your screen shots above showing your German forces by turn 10 at or near Rostov and Tambov, would you be willing to give more information on how this was done? Was it really accomplished by just the extensive use of the Luftwaffe for refueling or were their some other tricks you're willing to share? Was the game played aginst the AI or a human opponent? If the latter was he competent? How were you able to overcome the problem of the level bombers only being able to fly one resupply mission per turn, or was this a problem? Were the aircraft themselves flying from bases more than 20mp from a railhead? If so was this a problem? Were you making similar progress from Moscow north using the same tactic, or were you limited to just just being able to do this in one area? Is there any way your opponent could have prevented this? Since I am now up against the same thing myself any advice you can give would be appreciated.

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Post #: 59
RE: Collapse - 10/31/2012 5:20:48 PM   
forsyth

 

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I have done 4 buildups (only 1 for 1st Panzer Group and that was around turn 4). The level bombers work even with only 1 mission because there are so many more of them than Ju52s.

I try to keep the airbases within 10 hexes and 25mp of railheads for maximum supply but you have to go further as the front moves. By turn 10 the airbase supply/fuel levels in unit have fallen to 50-70%. The missions were flown from lots of different airbase supply distances. I have often thought it is sort of silly how a unit can have little fuel but if in the same hex as an airbase with plenty of fuel the planes can transfer it fine (very inefficiently) but the unit at the airbase couldn't get it otherwise. On the flipside, how much fuel/supply should an airbase be able to carry around?

My progress in the north is as good or better.

Regarding stopping it I will say this far from the railheads the pace is brutal to maintain. I have ideas on what to do though :)








< Message edited by forsyth -- 10/31/2012 6:05:46 PM >

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