RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 1:33:16 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Some good and some bad eh!?

Thanks for the map! Makes it easier to follow along!

I have no idea why your opponent is upset? He sends in unescorted bombers and get shot down. Its not even that many (70-80 or so?) By not escorting he is risking getting jumped every turn. He should know this.

Are you going to cancel FUDD now or go ahead with the landing? I�d go ahead if you still think you can establish a base despite losing the BF(s?)

Interesting to see he is relying on RTA divisions. Those guys are crap. Obviously even worse than the Chinese! Nice work getting Prome. I would seriously look at the possibility of getting many, many Chinese Corps to Burma. If you can get say 10-15k supplied Chinese AV in Burma I don�t think he will be able to get you out. Even if he went all in for it. But whatever you decide you need to open the mountain roads to China!

The map is another swag. It doesn't show important detail in the stacks or really what is going on around Toungoo. And it changed markedly this last turn at sea.

I don't want to air dirty laundry here re the emails. I think on balance they were useful. Mike is not a guy to pout. He's a stand-up player, and PBEM players know that sometimes one side or the other has a bad day. There's a fine line in both directions between trying to ease the game along, looking like a know-it-all, pity, opsec giveaways, and misunderstanding. I told Mike truthfully that he's taught me a lot about land maneuvering, and that his efforts around Hawaii have thrown off my time tables by months.

I asked him if the issue was the CAP being there on and off, or the CAP being there at all. He said the latter. He believes that Singers should be hard-closed from his bombing. He is getting accurate (within FOW) reports of daily damage and doesn't understand how the engineers can fix it every night, over and over. He said, again accurately, that he's sending 100+ MB raids there every day and it should be enough to close the AF and stop fort building. He expressed the idea that it's the scenario's fault, and that "stock" (I assume he meant Scen 1) doesn't allow this sort of uber-base defense. As that was the second round of emails I didn't say that the changes in Scen 2 are ALL to Japan's advanatge. The Allies don't get anything new. I also asked, without expecting an answer but to suggest there is balance here, when the non-historical R&D we agreed to in the set-up would start providing him some wonder planes?

I suggested as well that he might have erred early by splitting his bombing between Singers and the PI, and later 3-ways, adding Palembang. And that he's perhaps being too careful with his troops. Readers of this AAR know that he could almost certainly have had Singers on a couple of the attacks if he had used Shock. He's also let supply flow in, not risking IJN assets. I think the early use of TBs spooked him, but the supply missions into Singers have been well-documented here. Today the base still rests at 38,500 supply despite nothing going in but one APD a day for 180 each load.

FUDD is a go. It will take a lot more than I've seen so far to make me pull it back. Most of the force is actually marching in. Not needing PPs to move from India is fine, but the mass of the units are still restricted, can't go on ships, and I'm very short of PPs, having used large amounts to change LCU leaders all along the way. Taking Prome was good; taking Bassein will be good whan that happens. If all Rangoon has is RTA Rangoon will fall and with it the AF where the Zeros and Oscars live. If the landings are refused though the marchers are still coming. There are very good Aussie and Indian and Britsh units among their number.

As for Chinese in Burma there are a lot, but about 8 (?) corps so far have been sent to India and about 5 HQs. They have relieved Indian Army units, especialy armor, to head for Burma. More is on the rails right now. Those corps are set selectively to replace, and living in rich supply enviros such as Bombay I think some of them could be 700+-squad horror shows by late 1943 when they can return to their homeland.

The supply road through the Chinese mountains is a problem. I have some time; most everything in that stack has 500+ internal supply. But it's not a menace if it's out of supply. I have considered walking a few corps across the top of Tsuyung and getting hexsides which link to Paoshan, but Paoshan doesn't have any supply to spare either right now. I don't want to strip Chengtu of infantry to go after the tanks stopering the eastern road ingress since Chengtu is a bastion city for Chungking and an important secondary AF. If I lose it soon Chungking's job is much harder. I think I'll wait and see what his reaction to FUDD is before I do anything radical. If it makes him lash out from Tsuyung by either driving on Paoshan, or by moving into the mountains to challenge the Big Stack, that opens new possibilities. The Big Stack can survive 3-4 weeks under the status quo.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/15/2013 1:39:43 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 2:43:42 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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About the loss of that HQ and BF .... Fudd happens!

You have still mostly succeeded in your plans, and knowing that some of his carriers are waaaaay far away is great intel. Cawwy on Elmer!

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(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1112

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 5:00:21 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

About the loss of that HQ and BF .... Fudd happens!
You have still mostly succeeded in your plans, and knowing that some of his carriers are waaaaay far away is great intel. Cawwy on Elmer!

Thanks.

I think the Corps can be rebuilt. The RAF base force was one of the big ones, and they cost a lot of devices. It might stay gone.

We never do Monday turns due to Mike's work. I am itching to get at the next one and see what's up with the TFs that got hit.

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The Moose

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 1113

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 8:48:38 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The map is another swag. It doesn't show important detail in the stacks or really what is going on around Toungoo. And it changed markedly this last turn at sea.

I don't want to air dirty laundry here re the emails. I think on balance they were useful. Mike is not a guy to pout. He's a stand-up player, and PBEM players know that sometimes one side or the other has a bad day. There's a fine line in both directions between trying to ease the game along, looking like a know-it-all, pity, opsec giveaways, and misunderstanding. I told Mike truthfully that he's taught me a lot about land maneuvering, and that his efforts around Hawaii have thrown off my time tables by months.

I asked him if the issue was the CAP being there on and off, or the CAP being there at all. He said the latter. He believes that Singers should be hard-closed from his bombing. He is getting accurate (within FOW) reports of daily damage and doesn't understand how the engineers can fix it every night, over and over. He said, again accurately, that he's sending 100+ MB raids there every day and it should be enough to close the AF and stop fort building. He expressed the idea that it's the scenario's fault, and that "stock" (I assume he meant Scen 1) doesn't allow this sort of uber-base defense. As that was the second round of emails I didn't say that the changes in Scen 2 are ALL to Japan's advanatge. The Allies don't get anything new. I also asked, without expecting an answer but to suggest there is balance here, when the non-historical R&D we agreed to in the set-up would start providing him some wonder planes?

I suggested as well that he might have erred early by splitting his bombing between Singers and the PI, and later 3-ways, adding Palembang. And that he's perhaps being too careful with his troops. Readers of this AAR know that he could almost certainly have had Singers on a couple of the attacks if he had used Shock. He's also let supply flow in, not risking IJN assets. I think the early use of TBs spooked him, but the supply missions into Singers have been well-documented here. Today the base still rests at 38,500 supply despite nothing going in but one APD a day for 180 each load.

Well, I�m no stranger to venting!

I hope he got it out of his system. He probably realizes now that he messed up the whole Singers assault. Letting you get supplies in...big mistake.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
FUDD is a go. It will take a lot more than I've seen so far to make me pull it back. Most of the force is actually marching in. Not needing PPs to move from India is fine, but the mass of the units are still restricted, can't go on ships, and I'm very short of PPs, having used large amounts to change LCU leaders all along the way. Taking Prome was good; taking Bassein will be good whan that happens. If all Rangoon has is RTA Rangoon will fall and with it the AF where the Zeros and Oscars live. If the landings are refused though the marchers are still coming. There are very good Aussie and Indian and Britsh units among their number.

I�ll keep my fingers crossed. If you can grab Rangoon...its a sweet deal!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
As for Chinese in Burma there are a lot, but about 8 (?) corps so far have been sent to India and about 5 HQs. They have relieved Indian Army units, especialy armor, to head for Burma. More is on the rails right now. Those corps are set selectively to replace, and living in rich supply enviros such as Bombay I think some of them could be 700+-squad horror shows by late 1943 when they can return to their homeland.

The supply road through the Chinese mountains is a problem. I have some time; most everything in that stack has 500+ internal supply. But it's not a menace if it's out of supply. I have considered walking a few corps across the top of Tsuyung and getting hexsides which link to Paoshan, but Paoshan doesn't have any supply to spare either right now. I don't want to strip Chengtu of infantry to go after the tanks stopering the eastern road ingress since Chengtu is a bastion city for Chungking and an important secondary AF. If I lose it soon Chungking's job is much harder. I think I'll wait and see what his reaction to FUDD is before I do anything radical. If it makes him lash out from Tsuyung by either driving on Paoshan, or by moving into the mountains to challenge the Big Stack, that opens new possibilities. The Big Stack can survive 3-4 weeks under the status quo.

Delicate situation for sure. Personally I would really try to open the road. If you can grab Rangoon and clear Tsuyung (sp?) that extra supply you would get from "Burma road open" is going to make a lot of difference in China. It would also leave you a retreat path to Burma when/if needed. Do you know how much he has there and in Kumming? Can you dislodge his "stopper tanks" or is it impossible?

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1114

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 9:37:14 PM

SqzMyLemon

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From: Alberta, Canada
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I'm enjoying the AAR as well. The slow pace of operations is fine with me.

I think your opponent is just getting enlightened as to Japanese tactical air capabilities. It requires tremendous effort and large numbers of bombers to shut down larger airbases with even moderate amounts of engineers on hand. I agree with your assessment, he needed to focus his assets one target at a time to ensure success. I've learned in the past that Japan simply can't rely on LBA alone. In this case, he should have facilitated his bombing campaign by preventing supply reaching Singapore. It's also a huge waste of Betty/Nell pilots bombing land targets, unless he's changed the experience level of the pilots. That may explain his poor results, if not, that's an extreme waste of one of Japan's primary combat assets.

I'll try to be diplomatic here, but with pretty much a free for all in terms of gameplay, to not have captured Singapore by now seems...unexplainable. I noticed your opponent's play against Nemo, and it seems to me when things don't go as planned his train derails pretty quickly.

That being said, I'm glad I'm not playing you.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 4/15/2013 9:38:08 PM >

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Post #: 1115

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 10:34:44 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Delicate situation for sure. Personally I would really try to open the road. If you can grab Rangoon and clear Tsuyung (sp?) that extra supply you would get from "Burma road open" is going to make a lot of difference in China. It would also leave you a retreat path to Burma when/if needed. Do you know how much he has there and in Kumming? Can you dislodge his "stopper tanks" or is it impossible?

Tsuyung reads last turn (and my recon is zilch other than adjacent hex, which is usually very rough) as 17 LCUs. I had a good read on the take-down attack and it was about 109,000 men. Six IDs, a lot of tanks and engineers. Some of that might have gone away on the railroad, but I think most is still there. He is bombing Chengtu most every day, and the Big Stack. Usually a handful of casualties, like 15, and disrupted, not killed, squads. Most of them have been there long enough that they have a couple of levels of local, field forts.

I don't think there's any way to re-take Tsuyung without help from the Burma side, and that's not coming until the Allies get a lot more mechanized help in from the US and Britain. As long as the Big Stack is there it is, in chess terms, a pin. If he attacks it it stands awhile, eats at him (it's in awesome defense terrain.) Then can fall back a hex or two on the road. If he follows a force can come from Paoshan and take or attack Tsuyung, either taking it or making his road force come back to save it. If his Tsuyung force goes for Paoshan (no knockover of a base, believe me) he has to leave enough behind to hold the back door open against the Big Stack. Maybe half or more. Half of what's at Tsuyung probably can't take Paoshan, and if it does there's Lashio beyond that, and it's far stronger than Paoshan. Then there's the Mandalay group, with a lot of the Chinese army, fully supplied now.

As for the stopper tanks, I'm not sure he realizes yet they themselves are cut off from supply by the cav unit at the yellow road intersection. I'm light bombing the tanks to try to eat at their supplies. If I sent 3-4 corps from Chengtu to attack them I leave it weak, plus the odds are if I win all the tanks do is retreat deeper into the mountains, still stoppering the road. If a supply route is going to be opened to the Big Stack it'll either be across the top of Tsuyung once Paoshan gets fatter, or the tanks will leave or be forced to leave, by air attacks and lack of their own supply.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/15/2013 10:42:00 PM >

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The Moose

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/15/2013 10:38:47 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm enjoying the AAR as well. The slow pace of operations is fine with me.

I think your opponent is just getting enlightened as to Japanese tactical air capabilities. It requires tremendous effort and large numbers of bombers to shut down larger airbases with even moderate amounts of engineers on hand. I agree with your assessment, he needed to focus his assets one target at a time to ensure success. I've learned in the past that Japan simply can't rely on LBA alone. In this case, he should have facilitated his bombing campaign by preventing supply reaching Singapore. It's also a huge waste of Betty/Nell pilots bombing land targets, unless he's changed the experience level of the pilots. That may explain his poor results, if not, that's an extreme waste of one of Japan's primary combat assets.

I'll try to be diplomatic here, but with pretty much a free for all in terms of gameplay, to not have captured Singapore by now seems...unexplainable. I noticed your opponent's play against Nemo, and it seems to me when things don't go as planned his train derails pretty quickly.

That being said, I'm glad I'm not playing you.

So far as I know he last played before the last official patch. He has had some beefs with the air coordination all along, but from my POV most of the attacks arrive with fighters and sweeps come first most of the time. There is never one huge strike, but I can tell from vectors they're coming from north Borneo and north Malaysia at least, and no one should expect those to ever be coordinated. I do think he relies on air too much, but I've never played Japan either. There are 34 LCUs tied up at Singers, and 7-10 more at JB. If I get Rangoon he's going to have to decide if he sends stuff up there. If he does I think he can kiss Palembang goodbye forever.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/15/2013 10:42:56 PM >

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The Moose

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Post #: 1117

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/16/2013 5:35:43 AM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Delicate situation for sure. Personally I would really try to open the road. If you can grab Rangoon and clear Tsuyung (sp?) that extra supply you would get from "Burma road open" is going to make a lot of difference in China. It would also leave you a retreat path to Burma when/if needed. Do you know how much he has there and in Kumming? Can you dislodge his "stopper tanks" or is it impossible?

Tsuyung reads last turn (and my recon is zilch other than adjacent hex, which is usually very rough) as 17 LCUs. I had a good read on the take-down attack and it was about 109,000 men. Six IDs, a lot of tanks and engineers. Some of that might have gone away on the railroad, but I think most is still there. He is bombing Chengtu most every day, and the Big Stack. Usually a handful of casualties, like 15, and disrupted, not killed, squads. Most of them have been there long enough that they have a couple of levels of local, field forts.

I don't think there's any way to re-take Tsuyung without help from the Burma side, and that's not coming until the Allies get a lot more mechanized help in from the US and Britain. As long as the Big Stack is there it is, in chess terms, a pin. If he attacks it it stands awhile, eats at him (it's in awesome defense terrain.) Then can fall back a hex or two on the road. If he follows a force can come from Paoshan and take or attack Tsuyung, either taking it or making his road force come back to save it. If his Tsuyung force goes for Paoshan (no knockover of a base, believe me) he has to leave enough behind to hold the back door open against the Big Stack. Maybe half or more. Half of what's at Tsuyung probably can't take Paoshan, and if it does there's Lashio beyond that, and it's far stronger than Paoshan. Then there's the Mandalay group, with a lot of the Chinese army, fully supplied now.

As for the stopper tanks, I'm not sure he realizes yet they themselves are cut off from supply by the cav unit at the yellow road intersection. I'm light bombing the tanks to try to eat at their supplies. If I sent 3-4 corps from Chengtu to attack them I leave it weak, plus the odds are if I win all the tanks do is retreat deeper into the mountains, still stoppering the road. If a supply route is going to be opened to the Big Stack it'll either be across the top of Tsuyung once Paoshan gets fatter, or the tanks will leave or be forced to leave, by air attacks and lack of their own supply.

Ouch, well I guess that makes it impossible then. No way you can move them. 6 IDs + more is what? Around 3000-3500 AV? In mountains to top it off. How much do you have in your "big stack?" Perhaps you could just skirt North of Tsuying and move for Burma? China is going to be lost anyway and those troops could really be helpful in Burma I think. If I were you I would much rather have my "pin" on the right side of his troops.

In all essence the troops in Central China is cut off then? How much is there?

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1118

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/16/2013 1:18:11 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Ouch, well I guess that makes it impossible then. No way you can move them. 6 IDs + more is what? Around 3000-3500 AV? In mountains to top it off. How much do you have in your "big stack?" Perhaps you could just skirt North of Tsuying and move for Burma? China is going to be lost anyway and those troops could really be helpful in Burma I think. If I were you I would much rather have my "pin" on the right side of his troops.

In all essence the troops in Central China is cut off then? How much is there?

I'd guess around 3000 AV. Probably in the old combat reports, but I don't want to dig them out. It is what it is. Or was.

A screenshot of the Big Stack is below. All units are at 68, 45.

Moving them to the other side of Tsuyung, right now, gets me nothing. They give up their local forts and gain fatigue. And there's no supply over there anyway. Paoshan is being supplied by air from Ledo, and everything flown in is being sucked up into internal supply by the garrison. The base has 30-40 supply each turn. It's also building forts.

I gave up China voluntarily beginning in December. The early pages of this AAR describe why. So far I'm happy with the decision. His garrison requirements are high, the VPs have been manageable (I've never trailed in VPs in the game, not even a day), and I kept a couple of supply-generating bases. I had planned to withdraw all the way to Lashio and make its defenses massive, but I was convinced by RockyRoo to take another look at a more forward defense, and I'm happy I listened. The Big Stack sort of evolved due to the lower speed of advance through the mountains and his speed of advance up to the gates of Tsuyung. If I had more time the Big Stack would be on the way into Burma now. As it is I think it's a good lever, multiplying its effect. A smaller force tying down an immense one during critical weeks and months for Japan.

In the next week or so I'm going to experiment with trying to air-drop some supplies into 68, 45. I have no experience playing the AI with open country supply missions. Need to re-read the manual on that. It would be a trickle, but might help a bit. The majority of the transports are going to focus on Paoshan though.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/16/2013 1:20:47 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/17/2013 6:41:02 AM

V I Lenin

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/30/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

In the next week or so I'm going to experiment with trying to air-drop some supplies into 68, 45. I have no experience playing the AI with open country supply missions. Need to re-read the manual on that. It would be a trickle, but might help a bit. The majority of the transports are going to focus on Paoshan though.

If I remember - supply drops to units drop 1/2 the supply that supply drops to an airfield would (assuming normal range). So, it is a question of, is it worth that tradeoff...

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1120

RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/17/2013 1:14:26 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: V I Lenin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

In the next week or so I'm going to experiment with trying to air-drop some supplies into 68, 45. I have no experience playing the AI with open country supply missions. Need to re-read the manual on that. It would be a trickle, but might help a bit. The majority of the transports are going to focus on Paoshan though.

If I remember - supply drops to units drop 1/2 the supply that supply drops to an airfield would (assuming normal range). So, it is a question of, is it worth that tradeoff...

It isn't worth it except to play.

I like to try stuff out. I read a lot of forum posts that look like engineernig presentations I used to sit through at our plants. I ain't like that. Me and Canoerebel--we're in the "Hey! Watch this!" school of gaming.

Whatever gets through won't make a difference right now. I'd probably only do it a few days, watch Tracker, say "Hmmmmmmm", rub my chin, and go back to shoving boxes and bags into Paoshan. But once I have 1000 transports at Ledo, who knows?

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/17/2013 1:15:14 PM >

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The Moose

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/17/2013 1:15:58 PM

Bullwinkle58

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After some fits and starts I have a turn to play with. I'm off to see what Japan hath wrought near Burma.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/17/2013 4:46:49 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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Just sent the turn back, and did a couple of screen shots. The Hawaii area is just weird. Will post what I did before I know the result, so I can't be accused of sandbagging.

This Air TF has been watched for a couple of days now. It's done a Grand Tour arcing around Johnson I., but hasn't shot at anything. Range here is 10 to Pearl and the course is for open water. So, huh?

The first thing anybody has to think is "bait." Pretty expensive bait, like using lobster to fish for shad, but there it is.

The second possibility is a lead for a Hail Mary landing on the Big Island, or maybe Christmas. If the latter though this is a really dumb course to take. A landing on Hawaii at this point, with the CVs known to be at Pearl is also dumb. And there are no landing TFs seen. Johnson has medium good search assets now, and the AF is fixed.

The third possibility? Hmmmm.

What did I order? As I think "bait" is the best guess I have to asume he wants the CVs to sally forth, confident that Pearl can LRCAP them. And that might work. But he has Range 8 TBs and I have crap TBs. I need to get to Range 6 to launch DBs, and at that range the burn-through his CAP is VERY expensive, as seen at Johnson against the LBA Zeroes. Pearl has over 100 P-40s with excellent training and unit stats, and can easily drop tank. A lot of me says "Go for it." But if it looks too easy . . .

So I compromised. Told the ASW TF east of Johnson to pull in there. Routed the minelayers south and then NW to lay at Johnson. The carriers might hit them, but if so they use sorties. I re-routed some subs, but they probably won't be a factor.

At Johnson I 80%ed the one Wildcat CAP unit. Max-ranged the Vindicators and SBD-1s FWIW. Left everybody unloading because running just makes them more of a target and there's a little safety in numbers from escort AA.

At Peal I formed a 4-CV TF and stood it in the harbor. I put CAP at 0%, DB attack range at 6 and TBs at 5, all Rests at 0. If he comes to six hexes it'll be an alfa strike. I CAPped Pearl with everything that will fly, P-40Es on drop tanks at max range and mostly 20,000, Cobras in tight and low to get TBs and leakers. And I made a big DD-only surface TF and sent it slightly SW across the carriers' present course in hopes it might get a reaction to the NE and draw these suckers into the bag. Might cost some DDs, but they can dodge pretty well, Pearl is right there, and the risk is worth it. If they get into a gunfight with torpedoes vs. carriers that's OK too.

That's the plan. We shall see.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/17/2013 5:07:09 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/17/2013 5:21:47 PM

Bullwinkle58

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FUDD at start of turn. Rangoon landings are a toss-up. 18,500 man force coming down road will be bombed to mode-shift. Still, will be close. Main landing TF with Indian ID reversed and ran for Madras despite Absolute routing. Re-set, but armor might land first. Escorts will have to deal with whatever the IJN TF at Rangoon is. Think it is DDs.

South, off screen, the cruisers retreating went past Victoria Point and look as if they may be making for Georgetown. Sent an O-baot to meet them in the harbor.

So far recon shows no movement of Bettys into the Rangoon area.

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< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/17/2013 5:23:08 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 3:01:42 AM

erstad

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quote:

I read a lot of forum posts that look like engineernig presentations I used to sit through at our plants.

Hey, what are you trying to say? Some of us like engineering presentations!

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 4:21:45 AM

BBfanboy

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I suspect his bait near PH was to draw your CVs into a sub trap. KB may be in the area but well back of search range [effective search 12 hexes for a PBY, right?] so it will not be the initial spring for the trap. If a sub cripples one of your CVs, then he might bring up the heavy cavalry. [sea horses, or course]

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 9:08:16 AM

JocMeister

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Will be very interesting to see what the heck that CV TF is there for??! As you say it must be some kind of trick to try and get you to leave PH with your CVs.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 2:20:26 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

quote:

I read a lot of forum posts that look like engineernig presentations I used to sit through at our plants.

Hey, what are you trying to say? Some of us like engineering presentations!

I wouldn't be typing this without engineers. Just so long as they aren't in charge.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/18/2013 2:21:29 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 2:24:46 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I suspect his bait near PH was to draw your CVs into a sub trap. KB may be in the area but well back of search range [effective search 12 hexes for a PBY, right?] so it will not be the initial spring for the trap. If a sub cripples one of your CVs, then he might bring up the heavy cavalry. [sea horses, or course]

I don't know. I have very dense air ASw that close to Pearl. There's only one sub, to the north of Lihue, that I can see. And that close to Pearl there would need to be, probbaly, four impacts to put down a carrier before she could make port. And as I said, VERY expensive bait.

FWIW, I just ran the movie and the CVs kept going. No shooting. I have no idea where they're going, unless it's a resupply run to Palmyra. Kind of like fetching pizza in a Bentley. Someday when I read his AAR I guess I'll know.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 2:26:43 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Will be very interesting to see what the heck that CV TF is there for??! As you say it must be some kind of trick to try and get you to leave PH with your CVs.

Dunno. Although anyone who plays me should read my history on the forum and know that I'm no carrier lover. They're useful, but far too much import is given them by AE players. You can do most evolutions without them if you plan for it. This contstant running back and forth across the world with the KB I see in AARs is also nutso.

There. I said it.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/18/2013 2:27:36 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 4:16:53 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I wouldn't be typing this without engineers. Just so long as they aren't in charge.

Speaking of engineers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 4:18:28 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There. I said it.

Blasphemy!

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 4:34:21 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I wouldn't be typing this without engineers. Just so long as they aren't in charge.

Speaking of engineers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp8hvyjZWHs

That was funny. Really. I emailed the link all about North America. Oh, and to Okinawa too.

I really liked the front end of the truck self-destructing in place. The main idea I got was Never Use Heavy Equipment in Eastern Europe.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/18/2013 4:35:33 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 4:34:48 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
There. I said it.

Blasphemy!

The first step towards acceptance.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 4:57:32 PM

Bullwinkle58

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April 21, 1942

Initial screenshot. Near Rangoon.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 5:29:18 PM

Bullwinkle58

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April 21, 1942

Operation FUDD--No Longer in Cloud Cuckoo Land

"Cloud Cuckoo Land refers to an unrealistically idealistic state where everything is perfect. ("You're living in cloud cuckoo land, mate.") It hints that the person referred to is na�ve, unaware of reality or deranged in holding such an optimistic belief.

The reference comes from The Birds,[1] a play by Aristophanes in which Tereus helps Pisthetairos (which can be translated as "Mr. Trusting") and Euelpides ("Mr. Hopeful") erect a perfect city in the clouds, to be named Cloud Cuckoo Land.

Uses in politics

--Adolf Hitler used the phrase in Mein Kampf to describe the proposals of his political opponents.

--Margaret Thatcher famously used this phrase in the 1980s, reflecting the values of the time: "The ANC is a typical terrorist organisation... Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land."

--Paul Krugman used the phrase referring to inadequate German economic politics toward failing members of the European Union: "Basically, it seems that even as the euro approaches a critical juncture, senior German officials are living in Wolkenkuckucksheim � cloud-cuckoo land.""

Wikipedia

There is an American idiom--"gettin' busy"--which has varied meanings your correspondent will not delve into, but it applies to today. Folks were gotten busy upon and in return granted busyness to the Allies. Some actions went one way and some the other. At the end of the day though, it is clear that Operation FUDD has thrown off its air of inevitability and entered the next phase of scrambling and ad hoc action to salvage the effort. Much depends on the next 48 game hours and the IJN air force.

1) In the night phase it is discovered that "the cruisers" did not hie off to the south, but were in fact the TF seen yesterday in Rangoon. A strong force, they intercept the tiny minesweepers heading for Pegu to scout, and maul them.

Night Time Surface Combat, near Rangoon at 54,54, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CL Isuzu
CL Tama
DD Hayashio

Allied Ships
AM Ballarat, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
KV Auricula, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
KV Nigella, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage (sinks later)
AM Poole

2) Proving that IJN subs have been lurking, I-164 shoots at xAK Catrine, but misses. DD Fortune prosecutes the sub, but it slips away. Sufficient ASW is around for the Allies, but it is not a top priority.

Possibly thinking that Allied subs are about as well (they are not; they're south, in the Strait) a lone IJN DD is found and dispatched by the RN. Screenshot already posted.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Rangoon at 54,54, Range 23,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 10, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Revenge
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Ramillies
BB Resolution
CL Enterprise
DD Fortune
DE Sutlej

Only 10 hits are needed to generate a magazine explosion which sinks the vessel, leaving most of the BBs in good shape ammo-wise.

3) Allied worries that the landing forces will once again flee are removed as the troops do start going ashore in the night phase. Three full phases of unload are achieved for two of them, and one phase for a third. CD efforts are weak, and suppressed by the many cruisers which do fit up-river. But the supporting gunfire begins to reveal a troubling set of data--more LCUs are present than any recon previously revealed. As infantry and light tanks stream ashore the escorts continue to pound the landing zones. Allied losses are light. The primary landing division had 100% prep, but the supporting units only about 40%, but reported disruption is not bad. This is a large port, not an atoll. Still, it would be nice to have the Corps HQ now resting on the bottom of the Bay of B.

A new, never-before-heard recording of Orphan Ann is heard by the Allies. (After four years this game still surprises.) I had never amphib invaded Rangoon in a previous game. A new "warning" is issued; "thousands" of my soldiers will soon be floating to shore according to Ann.

4) One very bad moment occurs when the IJN heavy cruiser TF, ignored so far by the BBs and all of the carrier air, encounters another TF headed in, more lightly escorted than the first wave. Fortunately, either the randoms or the ops points smile on the Allies, and no fighting occurs.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Rangoon at 54,54, Range 21,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CL Isuzu
CL Tama
DD Hayashio

Allied Ships
CL Emerald
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Nizam
xAP Devonshire
xAKL Nanchang
xAKL Wosang
xAKL Nordhval
xAP Aorangi

Maximum visibility in Partly Cloudy Conditions: 28,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 21,000 yards
Japanese TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 21,000 yards...
Both Task Forces evade combat

5) Down in the Strait the IJN TF assumed yesterday to be headed for Georgetown instead has continued on, giving excellent intel that this is the probable route for ingress to Rangoon. S-39 is attacked in shallow water by DD Yamakaze, but escapes. Ahead for the TF are some mines and more subs. But even if it transits safely valauable information is gained. It is unclear if this ship is alone or if the rest are simply unsighted.

6) Air phase activity near Rangoon is extremely intense. Japan has seen the danger and throws everyting it can (really, everything) at the invaders. This screen shot shows a Mavis bombing run by 12 attackers.

Won't detail each raid. They are varied. Mostly Oscars and Zeros atacking low, with cannon, MG, and light bombs. Many lost as they bore in on cruisers with good AA, but some system damage accrues and a few 60kg bombs hit. They also attack HMS Hermes, but are refused. The Martlets and Sea Hurricanes give a good account of themselves. My figures show 8 Oscars, 3 Zeroes, 1 Nell destroyed, with over a score damaged. Fleet Air Arm looses about five plus ops losses. By the time the Mavis strike comes in the carrier CAP is exhausted; the lumbering beasts get a pass. Attack vectors are all around the compass--Rangoon, up-country Burma, Pegu-ish, the bombers look like Bangkok. Have to assume there is no torpedo HQ locally. Singers still gets plastered by bombers today; if this force shifts north it's not good.

The third RN carrier joins up, giving the Air TF three. I'm uncertain if this force can stay inshore another day now that at least what might be a "hold" force is ashore at Rangoon. Much depends on actual CAP damage.

7) In the midst of wave after wave of Japanese attacks (did I mention MAVISES?!!!!), the RN gets off a juicy TB strike from the carriers. "Here we go!" I think (the cat not being interested), but alas. Well, here it is. Twenty Albacores . . .

Morning Air attack on TF, near Moulmein at 54,55

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Allied aircraft
Albacore I x 20
Fulmar II x 2
Sea Hurricane Ib x 5

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar II: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CL Tama
CL Isuzu

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Fulmar II bombing from 15000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
6 x Albacore I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo
8 x Albacore I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo
6 x Albacore I launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo

8) The Allies sit pat at Rangoon, but Japan bombards. A free intel read, and it's chilling. HOW was Allied recon so poor? All of these units participate in the shelling, so they are not just in from the north or east, still in strat mode. I am doing something seriously wrong with my air recon missions. Have to look hard at that. Still, looking deeper into the results, it looks like the armor units at least may be damaged refugees from up by Toungoo. Despite so many LCUs the attack numbers are modest for Japan. The Allied units unloading are good, especially the Aussie 7th Div. If Bassein can be opened and if the on-coming marching units get to Prome in time FUDD may still hold together. The enemy stack coming south from Toungoo is bombed with everything scrape-able, but I'm not sure it is mode-knocked. The Allies need to take Rangoon fast and get the terrain bonus onboard before this stack arrives.

Ground combat at Rangoon (54,53)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 7574 troops, 64 guns, 10 vehicles, Assault Value = 775

Defending force 1122 troops, 41 guns, 61 vehicles, Assault Value = 110

Assaulting units:
16th Guards Regiment
15th Guards Regiment
14th Tank Regiment
112th Infantry Regiment
22nd Recon Regiment
5th Guards Engineer Regiment
3rd RTA Division
5th Guards Cav Regiment
15th JAAF AF Bn
55th Const Co
7th JAAF Base Force
15th Army
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion
29th JAAF AF Coy

Defending units:
B Sqn 3rd Hussars Rgt /2
7th Armoured Bde /2
19th Indian Div /1
7th Australian Div /1
21st Light AA Rgt /2

9) Elsewhere . . .

Sea of Japan patrols pulled out to cool off the ASW zone. USS Grayback continues to build her rep as the unluckiest boat in the Force as she shoots at an xAK and duds x4 again near Toyohara. Then shoots and misses x4 against a 2-DD ASW TF.

The recent CAP relo to Singers (since pulled back to Batavia) seems to have made Japan jumpy. Almost 90 fighters sweep open skies. Glad they're not at Rangoon. Then the bombing. 47 heavy bombers. Usual flak losses.

Allies bomb "stopper tanks" in the Chinese mountains and destroy another.

Chengtu gets medium bombing. No real effect. Forty planes are used to achieve 1 supply hit, 2 airbase, and 4 runway. There are no planes at this base.

Port Blair airfield goes to Level 5. Pearl Harbor forts go to 7.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 4/18/2013 6:55:26 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 7:26:00 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
The enemy stack coming south from Toungoo is bombed with everything scrape-able, but I'm not sure it is mode-knocked.

Ah! A new word for the next update of Funk and Wagnall's:

mode-knocked: adj.; to be knocked up so bad that one cannot move fast.
Try that one on the next really pregnant person [preferably of the female persuasion] that you meet!

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 4/18/2013 8:03:54 PM >

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 7:37:44 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
The enemy stack coming south from Toungoo is bombed with everything scrape-able, but I'm not sure it is mode-knocked.

Ah! A new word for the next update of Funk and Wagnall's:

mode-knocked: noun; to be knocked up so bad that one cannot move fast.
Try that one on the next really pregnant person [preferably of the female persuasion] that you meet!

I think it's an adjective, actually.

"That LCU was certainly mode-knocked."

I like inventing new things.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 7:59:40 PM

JocMeister

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Looks like Rangoon will be a tough nut to crack.

Depending on forts and how close he has reinforcements it might prove too much.

Do you have an evacuation plan ready?

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwin... - 4/18/2013 8:05:13 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
The enemy stack coming south from Toungoo is bombed with everything scrape-able, but I'm not sure it is mode-knocked.

Ah! A new word for the next update of Funk and Wagnall's:

mode-knocked: noun; to be knocked up so bad that one cannot move fast.
Try that one on the next really pregnant person [preferably of the female persuasion] that you meet!

I think it's an adjective, actually.

"That LCU was certainly mode-knocked."

I like inventing new things.

OK, OK! I fixed it ... umm - I mean I made it right, not neutered!

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