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RE: July 1944 - 5/19/2017 7:52:31 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Just to make Chickenboy HAPPY, I take great pleasure in stating that the Allies DID NOT take the lead in VPs this last turn.

Starting to think that the concept of VP should be just thrown out entirely. Would it not make a better game if both players just agree that the Allies must take Tokyo by Jan 1, 1946 or they lose period. Simple as that. Too easy to just play at VP harvesting and that sometimes detracts from realistic strategic considerations. Some balance would be required for mods like Scen 2 or this mod.

You could also slip in some things like if they Allies lose 10 CVL and CVs then the best that they could do is a minor win. Lose 15 and it is a draw at best. It would give the Japanese player incentive to go after the historical decisive battle up til the end. What do you guys think?

As far as I am concerned John, you should not have to think about hiding your remaining fleet. There should be no penalty for the Japanese player to lose everything and anything. That is what they are supposed to do to hold back the tide.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 5/19/2017 7:54:45 PM >

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RE: July 1944 - 5/19/2017 8:33:47 PM

AcePylut

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There's always a trick - and if the victory is dependent on losing carriers, and I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42... and that would detract from the game.

VP's are the way to go. It is what it is.

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Post #: 4292

RE: July 1944 - 5/19/2017 9:44:51 PM

Anachro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42...

Hm.

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Post #: 4293

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 12:27:17 AM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42...

Hm.

Hmmmmm....indeed!

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Post #: 4294

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 12:39:57 AM

John 3rd

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July 30, 1944

OK. It is the end of July 1944 and the often asked question is what does Japan have left for its Fleet? Here is a complete ship breakdown (excepting Subs because I forgot to total them):

At or Near Singapore:

CVs Unryu, Amagi, Katsuragi, Kasigi
CVLs Ryujo, Shoho, Ryuho, Kurama
BCs Hiei and Kirishima
CAs 4, 3 CL, 19 DD
Planes: 192 F, 78 DB, and 84 TB

Repairing in Port:
BB Ise--out in 3 Days
BB Nagato--SYS 24, FLOT 9, and ENG 3--26 Days

Batavia
Repairing in Port:
BB Musashi--SYS 42, FLOT 2, and ENG 4--None of this major damage. Everything is repairing at a point a day.

Soerabaja

CVs Akagi, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Aso, Junyo, and Ryukaku--Taikaku--Renkaku (Sho Kai Class)
CVL Ibuki
BCs Kongo and Haruna
4 CA, 3 CL, and 18 DD
Planes: 426 F, 185 DB, and 171 TB

Repairing in Port:
CB Ikoma--SYS 40, ENG 9--None Major so repairing a point a day.
CA Kumano--SYS 8 and FLOT 49 with all the FLOT Major Damage--68 Days.

Total Available:
13 CV, 5 CVL, 4 BC, 8 CA, 6 CL, and 36 DD

The entire Kido Butai carries 618 F, 263 DB, and 255 TB for a Grand Total of 1,064 Aircraft.

YES! This force shall be used and we'll see how it does but the Fighting will be on MY terms (if possible).

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 5/20/2017 12:41:46 AM >

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Post #: 4295

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 12:56:41 AM

AcePylut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42...

Hm.

Don't forget the qualifier : "...if the victory is dependent on losing carriers...".

My carriers are on the map, and closer than you think. :D

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Post #: 4296

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 12:57:51 AM

AcePylut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42...

Hm.

Hmmmmm....indeed!

"if the victory is dependent on losing carriers" :D I.e. if the best the US can hope for is a "draw" if they lose 10 CV/CVL - you will never ever see, for example, the CVL Hermes :)

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Post #: 4297

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:23:38 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Starting to think that the concept of VP should be just thrown out entirely. Would it not make a better game if both players just agree that the Allies must take Tokyo by Jan 1, 1946 or they lose period. Simple as that.

Meh.

For every two people there are four ways to define victory or defeat. I am certain that Canoerebel feels as though he is 'winning'. That's his style to claim victory early and often. The fact that the numbers disagree with him is the really-o truly-o objective thesis behind the game.

If the Allies are doing as well as historically, why are they behind in the last half of 1944? How can they rationalize 'losing' 65,000 VPs to the Japanese and still claim a 'good game'?

Sometimes, the Allies are blind to the game before them and wrapped in the guise of historical outcome and harkening only to the sycophantic babble of their AAR echo chamber. The points and the codified interpretation of same (1.5x=marginal victory, etc.) bring that back into focus.

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Post #: 4298

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:25:43 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

There's always a trick - and if the victory is dependent on losing carriers, and I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42... and that would detract from the game.

Many, many many Allied players take this tact...as you say-to the detriment of the game.

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Post #: 4299

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:34:30 AM

AcePylut

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

There's always a trick - and if the victory is dependent on losing carriers, and I'm playing as US, my CV's aren't leaving an off-map base until late '43 at best, when they are all fully stocked with Hellcats and I have an overwhelming advantage.... you will certainly never ever see them in '42... and that would detract from the game.

Many, many many Allied players take this tact...as you say-to the detriment of the game.

I agree, which is why I think a "if you lose xxx ships, then the best you can get is a draw" type victory condition doesn't work. Especially since this scenario is the IJ on steroids.

My CV's in my match are on board. I ain't going to throw them away, but they are "hanging around the margins" waiting for an opportunity :D

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:35:52 AM

AcePylut

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And had the US "in real life" lost all those troops in the ultimately failed invasion of Sumatra, that would have been "game over" for sure.

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:38:21 AM

John 3rd

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For me it is the contest. The head-to-head side of the game. I do sooooo love it.

The Allied player does not fundamentally understand (at least many of them) that FIGHTING in 1942 might lead to the occasional disaster but ANYTHING Japanese sunk during these fights CANNOT be replaced. It is better to fight and lose ships while bleeding the Japanese every step of the way. Makes for an exciting game and tests the Japanese player to always be on their toes.

That VP total of mine includes the disastrous Sumatra adventure where Dan lost dozens of ships and an ENTIRE Field Army of over 100,000 men who became POWs. Add to that the early-44 disaster landing at the Celebes where another 50,000 Allied troops entered the Japanese POW camps. Japan has 65,000 VPs! By any measure ALL the Allied Generals and Admirals would have been fired for their handling of the war to this point. I never understand how a player can just 'leave' troops or operations that have gone bad. It could never have happened IRL but, since this is a game, can happen here.

What about other long-term players? JFB or AFB--Where did you end up in your games with VPs and/or stories of your campaigns?

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:41:46 AM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

And had the US "in real life" lost all those troops in the ultimately failed invasion of Sumatra, that would have been "game over" for sure.

You Posted this as I was writing my comment above.

In one major way, you are totally correct in that this variant of RA is extreme. It is THIS campaign that led Michael and I pull the Japanese back and then add more to the Allied cause (off-map aircraft purchase system for example). The current Between the Storms Mod is a fantastically balanced Mod that I hope to play when this game ends to 'test' it out and see where the issues and bugs can be found.

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Post #: 4303

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:49:04 AM

John 3rd

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Serious question: What is YOUR measure of victory?

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Post #: 4304

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 2:00:34 AM

Xargun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

July 30, 1944

OK. It is the end of July 1944 and the often asked question is what does Japan have left for its Fleet? Here is a complete ship breakdown (excepting Subs because I forgot to total them):

At or Near Singapore:

CVs Unryu, Amagi, Katsuragi, Kasigi
CVLs Ryujo, Shoho, Ryuho, Kurama
BCs Hiei and Kirishima
CAs 4, 3 CL, 19 DD
Planes: 192 F, 78 DB, and 84 TB

Repairing in Port:
BB Ise--out in 3 Days
BB Nagato--SYS 24, FLOT 9, and ENG 3--26 Days

Batavia
Repairing in Port:
BB Musashi--SYS 42, FLOT 2, and ENG 4--None of this major damage. Everything is repairing at a point a day.

Soerabaja

CVs Akagi, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Aso, Junyo, and Ryukaku--Taikaku--Renkaku (Sho Kai Class)
CVL Ibuki
BCs Kongo and Haruna
4 CA, 3 CL, and 18 DD
Planes: 426 F, 185 DB, and 171 TB

Repairing in Port:
CB Ikoma--SYS 40, ENG 9--None Major so repairing a point a day.
CA Kumano--SYS 8 and FLOT 49 with all the FLOT Major Damage--68 Days.

Total Available:
13 CV, 5 CVL, 4 BC, 8 CA, 6 CL, and 36 DD

The entire Kido Butai carries 618 F, 263 DB, and 255 TB for a Grand Total of 1,064 Aircraft.

YES! This force shall be used and we'll see how it does but the Fighting will be on MY terms (if possible).

Have you ever considered removing all DBs and TBs from the KB and resize the fighters to provide you another 500 fighters ? Then use LBA for attacks and the KB as a huge mobile fighter screen ?

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 2:04:17 AM

BillBrown

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

And had the US "in real life" lost all those troops in the ultimately failed invasion of Sumatra, that would have been "game over" for sure.

You Posted this as I was writing my comment above.

In one major way, you are totally correct in that this variant of RA is extreme. It is THIS campaign that led Michael and I pull the Japanese back and then add more to the Allied cause (off-map aircraft purchase system for example). The current Between the Storms Mod is a fantastically balanced Mod that I hope to play when this game ends to 'test' it out and see where the issues and bugs can be found.

Before you do play it, you should fix the TOE for the 9th Australian Div. It still points to a Bn TOE, making that Division worthless.

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 2:17:24 AM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
By any measure ALL the Allied Generals and Admirals would have been fired for their handling of the war to this point.

Completely agree. The fact that the Allied CIC cannot EVER be replaced for indiscretion or incompetence inures the Allied high command to losses that would have, in real life, been their undoing many times over.

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 4:14:18 AM

John 3rd

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Bill---Are you saying that that issue STILL is not fixed?

Michael---You are playing it. Have you seen this or heard from your opponent?

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 4:17:16 AM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
By any measure ALL the Allied Generals and Admirals would have been fired for their handling of the war to this point.

Completely agree. The fact that the Allied CIC cannot EVER be replaced for indiscretion or incompetence inures the Allied high command to losses that would have, in real life, been their undoing many times over.

How about the Allies losing nearly 1,400 ships to this point in the war??!!'

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 12:03:58 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Serious question: What is YOUR measure of victory?

That I had fun!

That my opponent had fun!

Here is the victory page from my AV loss in Jan 1, 1945. Japan sank 25+ baby carriers and 5 Fleet Carriers. When I took over the game it was July of 1942 and Japan just lost 4 Divisions in a failed attack on Java. I never owned Rangoon, Port Blair...lost the KB at the Marianas in Oct of 43, Hokkaido invaded Dec 43 -Jan of 44. Got Frank A Jan of 44. Western Honshu conquered...but held at Osaka/Kobe/Nagoya....Scenario 1 Dec 8 start. I think i put 10 torpedoes into the Prince of Wales but could never sink her!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/20/2017 12:20:56 PM >

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 1:29:38 PM

John 3rd

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Damn. HOW did your opponent gain 187,563 VP??!! That is a staggering number...

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 2:44:00 PM

Bearcat2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
By any measure ALL the Allied Generals and Admirals would have been fired for their handling of the war to this point.

Completely agree. The fact that the Allied CIC cannot EVER be replaced for indiscretion or incompetence inures the Allied high command to losses that would have, in real life, been their undoing many times over.

How about the Allies losing nearly 1,400 ships to this point in the war??!!'

They are being sunk by planes and ships that never existed, with a production system that didn't exist and with logistic support that in RL was a pipedream.
But if we are going with a hypothetical scenario, wouldn't the Japanese commander be stationed at Legaspi with orders to hold at all costs after losing the emperor's carriers?

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Post #: 4312

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 2:44:10 PM

Bearcat2

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Thanks for the AAR, I am learning from both players

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 5/20/2017 2:45:38 PM >

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Post #: 4313

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:18:31 PM

John 3rd

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August 1, 1944

We are in August BABY and the month starts off with some very nice presents and gifts coming in for Japan.

For new aircraft, the BIG BAD BOY Judy D4Y4 goes into full-scale production. Let us look at all airframe production:

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4314

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:29:47 PM

Lowpe

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Looking real good for the rest of 44...with the exception of only roughly 60 night fighters a month...but those 800 kb bombs really sink CVEs!

Can you show us your AFV production? That is a biggy, and probably needs some micro-managing.

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Post #: 4315

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:32:21 PM

John 3rd

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August 1, 1944
Foochow, CHINA

By any measure or standard the Kate is an obsolete aircraft in 1944. Now back in 1942 this plane sank dozens of Allied ships but in August 1944 it should be relegated as a trainer.

Not so THIS day.

The plane, flown by capable pilots, can still be deadly. For over a week the Allies have been staging dozens of TFs at Foochow, CH. The Japanese have waited for a moment when enemy Fighters might be reduced to such a level that a shipping strike might be launched with some hope of success. August 1st is that day. Two Daitai totaling 63 Kates take to the sky. They are closely guarded by 51 veteran Naval fighter pilots flying the formidable SAM.

Flying at a standard strike altitude of 11,000 Ft, the bombers pilots spot the hoste of Allied shipping overcrowding Foochow's limited harbor. The Fighter Pilots, flying at 11,000 and 15,000 Feet, wait for the inevitable enemy fighters to meet them. Sure enough. Just over 100 American fighters vector in to attack the Japanese formation. An absolutely ferocious dog fight breaks outs. The SAMS do their job as only a few Kates get slashed before starting their torpedo runs.

Not taking time to prioritize, the Kates strike at a TF on the outer edge of the Allied armada. LOTS of AA rises to meet them as they descend to 200 Feet for their releases. Eight--Ten more Kates fall as the AA takes out their planes. Nearly 40 release their deadly fish and raise for home. The results are GOOD! Two LSI(L) and an APA are sunk with three more ships taking single TT hits.

In the greater scheme of things the attack doesn't do much but it serves to remind the Allies that it isn't ALL their way and provides a good morale booster for Japan.

NICE!

Attachment (1)

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RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:32:56 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Damn. HOW did your opponent gain 187,563 VP??!! That is a staggering number...

60K strategic VP gained. He bombed resources too, and got points for them....my air force pretty much was shot by June/July of 44...it was 7 months of daily shore bombardments by 10+ battleships and heavy bombing.

He had half of Japan.

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Post #: 4317

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:33:00 PM

John 3rd

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What the HECK is an LSI(L)?

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Post #: 4318

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:34:13 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Damn. HOW did your opponent gain 187,563 VP??!! That is a staggering number...

60K strategic VP gained. He bombed resources too, and got points for them....my air force pretty much was shot by June/July of 44...it was 7 months of daily shore bombardments by 10+ battleships and heavy bombing.

He had half of Japan.

I'll hang my head in shame for asking. WOW! Those are some scary numbers...

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Post #: 4319

RE: July 1944 - 5/20/2017 3:34:24 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

What the HECK is an LSI(L)?

Fairly big British xap converted to landing ships.

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Post #: 4320

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RE: July 1944