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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 2:08:07 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I was pretty clear in my email to Dan that things are still rolling. The issue needs to be addressed.

Obvert: My experience is hardly anything flies against a small single ship TF. I opened up those Judy's around the Marshalls, once I got fed up with watching those ships prowl around, and they only flew about once every three days.

Taking them out would have only served to alert him as well.


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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 2:10:13 AM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

So this one seems to show that some kind of layering is useful in CAP.

All CAP at 31k here and gets hit pretty hard. Still not 3:1 for the Allies though, but a big difference from the last test.





This is rather interesting.

Over the CVs, I always keep a low and a high distribution of CAP. Usually I am at 10,000 Ft and 21,000 Feet. What do your tests suggest works best?

EDIT: I keep the 11,000 Ft CAP because that is the flight level of my Judy and Jills.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/22/2016 2:12:05 AM >

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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 2:48:31 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Pickets or a method to extend naval search? You may not like it, but both sides can uses ships to achieve this goal. Another goal is to overwhelm your ability to process what is actually out there. Kind of like chaff at sea vs being in the air to confuse radar. If anything, I would have the HR be that you must have 2 ships in a TF out doing this to allow the AI to process the target as worthy of a naval attack.

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Post #: 1803
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 2:53:56 AM   
T Rav

 

Posts: 387
Joined: 5/29/2004
Status: offline 		John,

I consider the single ship TFs as realistic if you look at Okinawa in the case of picket ships. While the distances might be different, the concept is basically the same; provide warning of an attack. I believe fishing fleets were used in the Atlantic and Pacific as well. All you really need is eyes and a radio to be effective. WITP doesn't have fishing fleets modeled, so maybe this works in their stead.

Just a thought,
T Rav

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Post #: 1804
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 5:26:51 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Haven't seen a turn yet and it is bedtime for John.

Sent Dan this note just a few minutes ago:

I have had it set straight to me on my AAR. Have to admit we have some very strong, assertive good members who made some serious comments in discussion over tactics used.

Feel like I should apologize for taking issue with it.

Look forward to the next turn. My shields are up, phasers are charged, and am loading my Photon TT. Better look out Sir!

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Post #: 1805
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 10:18:35 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

So this one seems to show that some kind of layering is useful in CAP.

All CAP at 31k here and gets hit pretty hard. Still not 3:1 for the Allies though, but a big difference from the last test.



This is rather interesting.

Over the CVs, I always keep a low and a high distribution of CAP. Usually I am at 10,000 Ft and 21,000 Feet. What do your tests suggest works best?

EDIT: I keep the 11,000 Ft CAP because that is the flight level of my Judy and Jills.



Yeah, sorry it was meant for the main page thread and (late at night with my wife calling from bed) posted it on your AAR instead!!

Anyway, the other stuff is cool yes, but I'm not sure how useful this is for CV air stuff (yet). I'll get to that!

So many differing thoughts on CV group settings. I like 1-2 big groups on stationary CAP at 1-2 hexes to cover any nearby TFs or reactions by CVs, and the rest on like 40% CAP with escort settings, so at altitudes of the bombers, whether I choose 10k, 12k, 15k or whatever, depending on situation and opponent's tendencies.

I think 21k is too high for CVs. Nothing will be up there, so 15k is about as high as I go. Sometimes I set some to 5k as well if the opponent is known to set TT bombers low.

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Post #: 1806
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 10:27:52 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		This has been a good tactic employed by Dan both in the Indian Ocean (and can be used along the western map edge) and in the vast Northern Pacific. You got caught with your pants down up north. You could have deployed your 'picket' ships in the areas not covered by Emily in the Aleutian, Marcus Island, and Wake Island triangle. You could have deployed a counter measure of roving SC TFs (you like the CL & 4 DD) with a few high endurance xAKs to refuel from further to the west that you sent out at infrequent intervals to look for picket ships. No need for a HR, but in future when Dan puts out all these 'targets' he has a purpose that you need to discover and counter.

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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 12:07:44 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I was pretty clear in my email to Dan that things are still rolling. The issue needs to be addressed.

Obvert: My experience is hardly anything flies against a small single ship TF. I opened up those Judy's around the Marshalls, once I got fed up with watching those ships prowl around, and they only flew about once every three days.

Taking them out would have only served to alert him as well.



I've experienced the difficulty hitting single ship TFs too. I'd like to test to confirm it's not just in how I see things up before ruling out that I'm just not doing it right.

If t is a problem with single ships, then an HR seems valid for 2+ vessels in any picket TF. This also does pose a problem if used in abundance to then soak up strikes, and I know that has been a question in the past too. If BB/CV are around strikes should concentrate there, but if not they can become confused and not go all-in for AP and other troop ships in favor of splitting to go after single xAK, etc.

I guess to be sure with the single ship pickets you might have to use fast single ship TFs of E and TB on 3-4 hex react with good air search for the IJN. That'll surely hit em too, and if you make it a standard practice then it doesn't tip him off that you're coming in any way. It'd be a lot easier to hit em with FP though.

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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 1:57:36 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Obvert,

Can you really use Jakes on naval strikes off AV?



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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 2:31:46 PM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline 		We have had that discussion in my games with my opposition, we are on our 6th game. Historically the Japanese used fishing vessels as long range pickets mostly near the Home Islands, the Americans did not. The massive use of single vessel TFs is contrary to the Allied mind set as these would be basically suicide missions, and especially if they are well away from the American Homeland. Later in the war the Americans used combat pickets to give early warning against massive kamakazi air raids, but these were combat vessels with radar. I am the Japanese and limit my use to around the Home Islands, and I have not encountered my opponent using this questionable tactic as the Allied player. The game allows many things to happen but we should also be guided by the national mindset. If America was losing and in danger of invasion of the lower 48 they would used single TF pickets as it would be seen as a reasonable measure given nation survival. However, they way they are being used by the Allied player is not in keeping with the Allies national norms. Of course HRs before hand should be used to stop these tactics from being employed, mid-game is a bad place to address this.

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Post #: 1810
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 4:02:52 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Tuning back in for REGULAR scheduled combat.


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Post #: 1811
Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 4:32:48 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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Status: offline 		June 3, 1943
Aleutians

The Allies, as expected, move to the east away from the approaching Kido Butai. At this point Unmak and Cold Bay are Japanese. They won't last for long but their initial resistance has forced additional landings of Allied troops. It is obvious that most are not prepped for this because the landing casualties are HIGH. An armored unit landed at Unmak and took over 100 vehicle casualties. This is all good because it is forcing additional units to commit from his floating reserve. It also serves to force him to stay reasonably close to the combat arena.

KB sinks a pair of picket units. It will be at the edge of strike range tomorrow. I imagine units will pull back more and I will have to come east. LBA does not appear to be an immediate issue as the AF at Cold Bay and Unmak are totally wrecked. Even when he takes them tomorrow he won't be able to have them operational. A very good thing.

The defense at Unmak has also allowed me to pull out nearly all of the Air Flotilla and over 1,500 members of the NE Fleet HQ. Should get another day of this tomorrow as well. Plane losses have been quite high but the cost is more then worth it. My Tina and Topsy will have saved the vast majority of two Air Flotilla and the HQ unit. Fantastic! There is already an Air Flotilla at Attu so air support is going to be GREAT for the coming campaign.

PLAN:
1. Continue to pull out NE Fleet HQ.
2. KB will move into strike position tomorrow. Want to move south of Umnak (probably) and pick-off what shipping I can.
3. The first of nearly 15 I-Boats begin to move into position BEHIND his Fleet.
4. Two Infantry Divisions and a Brigade will make it to Attu and begin Invasion Prep for Adak.
5. Four good Army Fighter Sentai are on the way as well as more bombers.

We will move to immediately keep Adak out of action. Figure another Sabang siege readers. We'll make that AF a disaster through Naval Bombardment and Air Strikes then take it back. As a good reader earlier mentioned this is not an area of grave strategic threat. I WANT to keep him tied down here and not threaten anything vital.



< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/22/2016 4:36:25 PM >

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Post #: 1812
The REAL Fight - 3/22/2016 4:54:12 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		June 3, 1943
Sumatra

The campaign that has so much more of a strategic threat has an interesting development on June 2nd-3rd. I've had a couple of weak bombardments of Sabang by my BBs and BCs. Add to arrival of 4 Infantry Divisions and 4 Engineering Regiments and it is obvious the Allied situation at Sabang is going from bad to worse. Dan brings in a BUNCH of aircraft!

YES!

The turn over 200 planes fly in to Sabang sees my BBs (Yamato, Nagato, and Ise) deliver a solid and devastating bombardment. These big guns do 507 Cas, 32 Guns, 21 Vehicles, hit the AF 84 times, and destroy 43 planes. NICE! Sweeps by two Tony Sentai add another 12-15 planes to the total. No strike aircraft fly from the AF so we add another helping of Naval Bombardment on the 3rd. All four Kongo's unload their ammo and do 404 Cas, 25 Guns, 45 Vehicles, hit the Runway 45 times, and destroy another 14 aircraft. No planes fly again so Dan works to pull them out.

Very satisfactory from the Japanese view.

The base will get a day off and then the BBs shall return to visit again. I plan a double bombardment the day my 5th Infantry Division arrives and we launch our first assault.

PLAN:
1. Troops: As mentioned earlier, I had five ID is reserve when the Allied move up North was detected. Two of those ID headed for the Marianas and are now just 4-5 days from Attu. The 3rd ID stays in Reserve at Soerabaja. The remaining two were at Ternate waiting developments. On the 2nd they get their orders and head for Langsa. We need to FINISH Sabang soon. These troops will be fresh and should tip the scales even further along the line towards Japan.

2. Naval: Just had 3 CA and 8 DD finish upgrading at Soerabaja and Singers. They will link-up to form a 3rd Bombardment TF to aid the BBs and BCs. Will porbably pull one Kongo to toughen it up some.

3. Air: I ave had all eight IJA Bomber Sentai resting, training, and refitting aircraft for about 10 days. They will return to the fight and launch mass attacks on the 1st Marines over on the left side of the perimeter. This will be in preparation for a 3 Division Assault to be carried out in 3-4 days.

RESERVE
I know have a fairly strong Naval Reserve at Truk of CV Junyo, 7 CVE, and 12 DDs. They are currently in two TF and once they join-up I think they will come back to Georgetown and then do something crazy. I think they will raid into the IO and try to catch some shipping. Am just thinking on this but like the idea some...





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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/22/2016 4:56:11 PM >

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Post #: 1813
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 4:59:12 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		No HR, no foul. (unless it is some real cheese) For every annoying thing my opponent does I am certain that there is one that I do in turn. We have had our arguments over the past seven years and two campaigns. You and Dan will work it out. Play on and have fun.

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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 5:21:32 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		We're already good. Emails exchanged and I will call him tomorrow. Thanks Sir.

Things just get SOOOOOOOOOOOOO intense...RIGHT?!!


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RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 5:53:09 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Obvert,

Can you really use Jakes on naval strikes off AV?



Yep. One of my favorite things about playing Japan is that kind of flexible use ship/conversion.

I set up a simple test in my test platform for single ship TFs. Wanted to see if they would be targeted and hit from an AV. Using Kamikawa Mara here, which has 60 sorties available. Some smaller AVs like Akitsushima do not have sorties, and as seen here, those planes did not strike.

Note the AM has DL 10/10 after a day of searches from groups of Jakes (14 total planes on 30% search) plus two detachment groups of Emilys (5 planes total) at 40% search, no arcs.

The group used only had 46 low naval skill (and I added top EXP pilots since morale for the group was so low), much less than I would normally use, but I added killer group/TF leaders and they sunk the single AM after two turns at 6 hex range, (attacking and missing turn 1 and hitting with 4 x 60kg turn 2).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 22, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Buka at 106,129

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
E13A1 Jake x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AM Starling, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x E13A1 Jake bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/22/2016 6:00:36 PM >

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Post #: 1816
RE: The REAL Fight - 3/22/2016 5:56:56 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

June 3, 1943
Sumatra

The campaign that has so much more of a strategic threat has an interesting development on June 2nd-3rd. I've had a couple of weak bombardments of Sabang by my BBs and BCs. Add to arrival of 4 Infantry Divisions and 4 Engineering Regiments and it is obvious the Allied situation at Sabang is going from bad to worse. Dan brings in a BUNCH of aircraft!

YES!

The turn over 200 planes fly in to Sabang sees my BBs (Yamato, Nagato, and Ise) deliver a solid and devastating bombardment. These big guns do 507 Cas, 32 Guns, 21 Vehicles, hit the AF 84 times, and destroy 43 planes. NICE! Sweeps by two Tony Sentai add another 12-15 planes to the total. No strike aircraft fly from the AF so we add another helping of Naval Bombardment on the 3rd. All four Kongo's unload their ammo and do 404 Cas, 25 Guns, 45 Vehicles, hit the Runway 45 times, and destroy another 14 aircraft. No planes fly again so Dan works to pull them out.

Very satisfactory from the Japanese view.

The base will get a day off and then the BBs shall return to visit again. I plan a double bombardment the day my 5th Infantry Division arrives and we launch our first assault.



Very positive for you. Very optimistic move by him. Now he's in a bit of a pickle with those groups too.

If any of those groups have all aircraft damaged they're essentially stuck and he may have to actually disband them. That is very good for you as the airframes would be lost and he's have to wait two months to use them again.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/22/2016 5:57:45 PM >

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Post #: 1817
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/22/2016 6:02:43 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Well done John on the bombardment.

I find it hard to believe the Allies would restock Sabang with planes. Especially with 4E beasties. Smash them, and smash them again and again. Try to bombard everyday with something as long as there is one cruiser with a spotter along. Don't give him any respite.

Thanks Obvert for a nice little trick.


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Post #: 1818
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/23/2016 1:13:46 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Well done John on the bombardment.

I find it hard to believe the Allies would restock Sabang with planes. Especially with 4E beasties. Smash them, and smash them again and again. Try to bombard everyday with something as long as there is one cruiser with a spotter along. Don't give him any respite.

Thanks Obvert for a nice little trick.




Next Turn:
1. Looks like there will be surface action at Sabang this coming turn. Warships approaching. Sinabang, Langsa, and Great Nicobar prepare 300 anti-ship aircraft to attack. Five Daitai/Sentai will Sweep over Sabang as well as act as LRCAP. The BBs go in for surface action and the BC get slated for the bombardment.

2. KB will be in attack range. Anything from Cold Bay west will be open for attack. Umnak and Cold Bay fell but the AF are TRASHED. Should be safe--more or less--for a couple of days.


Obvert: Just think I might give that idea a try...

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Post #: 1819
Adak - 3/23/2016 1:16:46 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Here is KB moving in.

LOOK at all the construction units at Adak! Too bad they won't get much chance to get used. After KB attacks tomorrow--pending on things--I shall detach the Command Cruiser and 6 CA to pound the base.





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Post #: 1820
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/23/2016 1:17:56 AM   
savelius2

 

Posts: 57
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Status: offline 		Good luck John. Hopefully some interesting naval action soon!

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Post #: 1821
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/23/2016 1:21:27 AM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
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From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		What are your plans for the Aleutians? Do you mean to simply destroy what you can of his ships or will you try to contest the actual islands? Any LCU's incoming?

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Post #: 1822
RE: Kido Butai Revealed - 3/23/2016 2:02:56 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Bringing two Infantry Divisions and a Brigade. Will land them on good guy bases and set them to prep for Adak. A counter-landing--pending developments-- would be pretty fun.


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Post #: 1823
The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 8:37:50 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		June 6, 1943

Aleutians
The Kido Butai arrives on scene after much of the action has finished but it still is able to go to work with a will! The carriers launch six strikes during the morning and three massed strikes in the afternoon. The results harken back to the 'good ole days' of Dec 1941 and early-1942. Most of the strikes go to Dutch Harbor where there is a concentration of shipping. For the paltry loss of 4 Zero, 6 Judy, and 3 Jill, the Allies lose--at a minimum--18 AK, 11 LST, 8 LCI, and 2 AM. At least another dozen or so ships are hit and damaged. It is delightful to watch! Largest Strikes were 157 Zero--68 Judy--56 Jill and 184 Zero--89 Judy--78 Jill.

Plan to pass through the Aleutians and move north of their line tomorrow and move slightly away to the NW. There is an enormous amount of Support Ships disbanded at Dutch Harbor. I WANT THEM! All Jill are assigned a massed Port Strike for that location. Judy are set to Naval Attack. To keep everything calm at Umnak, we detach the new Command Cruiser Kawachi, 3 CA, and 5 DD to bombard the base.

After this set of strikes tomorrow we'll retire towards Attu and refuel. We'll see what Dan intends at that point...

Sabang
There is a relief Task Force of AKs (Supplies?) trying to get into Sabang. It is smacked by three strikes: 13 Nell, 24 Zero--39 Judy, and 21 George--41 Jills. About a dozen AKs are hit and several are sunk. My bombing and Torps is TERRIBLE! They shall do better tomorrow if given a chance. Perahps he is finally running low on supply? Man--that would be awesome!

The 4 BC bombard Sabang while the BBs and CAs sit as STF at Sabang. The BCs deliver their deadly cargo and inflict 497 Cas, 22 Guns, 30 Vehicles, and hit the Runway 79 times.

The Battleships will unload on Sabang tomorrow while the CAs move out to intercept the Allied TF and, hopefully, crush the remaining shipping. The CAs retire to Sinabang afterwards to meet up with the AKEs there.

Summary
At least 40 Allied ships are sunk this turn. The number may be as high as near 60. Excellent work done.

If the Port Strike goes well at Dutch Harbor then I shall consider the situation stable in the Aleutians. If there isn't much resistance again tomorrow then I'll REALLY be happy with the Operation.

Sabang: WHY try to relief TF now? Does Dan think I've pulled all the airpower away? NOT! We want total victory at this location...






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< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/23/2016 8:40:03 AM >

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Post #: 1824
RE: The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 11:10:46 AM   
buutsy

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 1/29/2006
From: Berlin
Status: offline 		Banzai !
Great story to read.
Thanks so much for all your incredible work on the mods and especially for your AAR´s,being a wonderful source of knowledge and sophisticated
gameplay!
Reading both sides, so not much comments. Good luck for the forthcoming battles - may the force be with ya

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Post #: 1825
RE: The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 11:54:48 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		So. Good to get some VPs from those ships fairly easily. Still, you have a reputation for smash and bang tactics, and that can be effective in the early stages of the war when the Allies are weak.

The Allies are not weak now.

What are your strategic goals in this OP? How dangerous is an Allied force in the Aleutians? How important is it to hit a few xAK (which the Allies make at a level they can't even begin to use them all)? What possibilities are open for the Allies to either counter or use knowledge of the position and use of the KB in this way?


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Post #: 1826
RE: The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 3:26:49 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I'll strike again next turn and then retire to the west.

You are correct that we're now at a stage of twisting the tail of a tiger. There was a good number of CVs protecting this operation and I kept track of them until last turn. They have moved east out of search range. It has crossed my mind regarding is this IT? For major LCUs I have seen only three big Infantry Divisions so far. Could this be a massive diversion? YES! This is why I have not overcommited moving aircraft up here. It is being reinforced but not to the exclusion of all other areas.

Dan is conservative with his CVs. My plans are to cover the western Aleutians for a couple of days to ensure that the reinforcements arrive and then move KB back down to a central position. This is my current thinking that might change immediately based on situation.

Air Search continues in all other arenas so we'll know if something is coming elsewhere. I do hate having KB at one extreme edge of the empire...


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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 1827
RE: The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 3:32:08 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		We're in the middle of a short blizzard presently with 40 MPH winds and 4-10" of snow predicted. Don't know about power. It has been on and off. Doubt if we'll get a turn in until later tonight.

FYI: No turns from Sat--Wed this week. We're going up in the mountains for some family R&R.


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 3/23/2016 3:33:09 PM >

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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

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(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 1828
RE: The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 3:32:36 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Well done.

But I bet you are out of torpedoes now. Plus pilots and planes are tired.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 1829
RE: The Good Ole Days - 3/23/2016 3:34:56 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I only used TTs on 1/3 of my CVs last turn. I rotate my usage so I have at least 3-4 days worth when entering into heavy combat.

Pilots are in great spirits presently since they didn't have much to fight off. Next turn will probably see a decline in morale.


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(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 1830
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