Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Now, planning time:

We'd like the CW to overrun as much of the Vichy colonies as we can get away with. If (and it's a big if) we beat Japan to the punch, we could possibly get a division into Hanoi, we've already got the infdiv in Ceylon and he can make the hop. The partisan would be aligned to the CW when they declare war on Vichy (I think), and so would take care of the notional, so the invasion should be automatically successful.

During the end of turn, CW would gain control of French Indo-China. And unless we move either the partisan or the infdiv, they would then be stacked in the same hex, and now the partisan would be controlled by Italy, and at war with the CW.

Uhm, what happens then?

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ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

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ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Now, planning time:

We'd like the CW to overrun as much of the Vichy colonies as we can get away with. If (and it's a big if) we beat Japan to the punch, we could possibly get a division into Hanoi, we've already got the infdiv in Ceylon and he can make the hop. The partisan would be aligned to the CW when they declare war on Vichy (I think), and so would take care of the notional, so the invasion should be automatically successful.

During the end of turn, CW would gain control of French Indo-China. And unless we move either the partisan or the infdiv, they would then be stacked in the same hex, and now the partisan would be controlled by Italy, and at war with the CW.

Uhm, what happens then?

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ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
Partisans only co-operate with other units from their own country.

You couldn't enter Hanoi with any CW units because you don't co-operate.

You couldn't attack Hanoi because the partisan is controlled by Nationalist China.

You would have to have Nationalist China move the partisan out of Hanoi before your attack.

In this case the partisan could only stack with one other partisan from French Indo-china.


Of course:

If your not at war with Japan and if Japan aligns French Indo-china before you take Hanoi your units would be kicked out of French Indo-china.

The partisan would then become hostile to Japan and still be controlled by Nationalist China.

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ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Well, strategy wise, I've never been too frightened of the Vichy fleet.

And I like to have at least a body in Indo-China to keep the Japanese from walking in and flanking the KMT in the south. You don't need to liberate the country, just have a unit there. Usually it's a hop into Kwang-Ngai or to Carn-Ranh Bay, and then shipping the div out (I need the flexibility) and someone worthless, like a random Terr or the Rangoon Mil in.

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Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf
9.8 Aligning minors
If a neutral minor can align with your major power (see 19.6 Soviet border rectification, 19.7 Axis minor countries, and 19.8 Allied minor countries), you can declare that it is aligning with you. You can only declare one minor aligned with your major power in each friendly impulse.

Your major power controls a minor that aligns with it exactly as if another major power had declared war on it.

9.10 Japanese occupation
Japan can announce the occupation of French Indo-China and Madagascar during the declaration of war step (see 13.3.3 US entry actions, entry actions 1. Japan occupies Indo-China & 5. Japan occupies Madagascar). If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.

13.3.3 US entry actions
Option 1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

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Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

13.3.3 US entry actions
Option 1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.

This is the only way the rules I present make sense.

Japan cannot align French Indo-China:
If French Indo-China goes Free French, or
If Japan is at war with the major power currently controlling French Indo-China.

Japan can align French Indo-china:
If French Indo-china goes Vichy French; or
If Vichy France at one time controlled French Indo-China and Japan is not at war with the major power currently controlling French Indo-China.

If Japan aligns French Indo-China all hexes in French Indo-China would immediately become Japanese controlled.

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Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

9.10 Japanese occupation
Japan can announce the occupation of French Indo-China and Madagascar during the declaration of war step (see 13.3.3 US entry actions, entry actions 1. Japan occupies Indo-China & 5. Japan occupies Madagascar). If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.


13.3.3 US entry actions

Option 1. Japan occupies Indo-China - Japan aligns French Indo-China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Move any Vichy units in French Indo-China to the Free French force pool.

All hexes in French Indo-China immediately become Japanese controlled.


5. Japan occupies Madagascar - Japan aligns Madagascar China but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there. Japan does this by announcing the occupation during an Axis declaration of war step. Japan must have aligned French Indo-China (see entry action 1) in a previous turn.

Move any Vichy units in Madagascar to the Free French force pool. All hexes in Madagascar immediately become Japanese controlled.

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ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge
Functionally, this means a race to get a unit in before Japan can declare an alignment. Usually a CW unit, since China can't declare war, the Americans probably won't have enough entry when France falls, the Soviets don't have anyone who can get there, and the Free French are usually too battered, which leaves the CW.

Actually, that reminds me, the notional would be a vichy unit right? So it has a 40% (50% if it's the Free French attacking) of defecting before combat even begins if you do attack Hanoi, which shifts the odds in the attackers favor.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Please note 13.3.3 US entry actions 1 and 5 have the same requirements so their situation is the same.

Rule 9.10 Japanese occupation states: If the prerequisites in 13.3.3 US entry actions are met, you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned, provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power.

Rule 13.3.3 US entry actions 1 and 5 states: but only if it is a Vichy territory (see 17.2 Determine control) and there are no Allied units there.

Why say in rule 9.10 Japanese occupation, "you may align these minors even if the minor country is aligned"? When Vichy France is established French Indo-China is aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.

The sentence makes no sense if they are talking about Vichy France aligning in either option.


Why say in rule 9.10 Japanese occupation, "Provided Japan is not at war with the controlling major power". Axis major powers can’t declare war on Vichy France.

The sentence makes no sense if they are talking about Axis major powers declaring war on Vichy France.

Why even include rule 9.10 Japanese occupation in the rules?

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5.1 Trade agreements

Shipment
Where possible, these resources (or build points) are transported by rail (see 13.6.1 Resources). If this isn’t possible, the recipient must provide the convoys required to receive them (exception: the joint Japan-USA convoy, see above). If the recipient cannot provide the convoys, they do not receive the resources (or build points).

[Emphasis mine.]

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13. End of Turn Stage
13.6 Production
Search and Seizure
You can stop major powers on the other side that you are not at war with from transporting resources (and build points ~ see 13.6.4 Lend lease) overseas to major powers you are at war with.

To do this:
You must have an SCS, CV or SUB in the sea area during the production step;
The major power you are not at war with must have convoy points there that are transporting resources (or build points) to a major power you are at war with; and
There must not be an SCS, CV or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor, controlled by a major power you are at war with, in the sea area (or a US unit that can escort there because of US entry options 11 US east coast escorts, 20 US land-based air escort, 29 North Atlantic escorts, 38 Lend lease to USSR or 50 Unrestricted naval warfare ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options).

You can then execute a search and seizure if you want to. If you do, those resources (or build points) are lost. Each search and seizure you execute is a US entry action (see 13.3.3 US entry actions) if it is conducted against a major power not at war with the USA.

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Active major powers may contribute to the convoy chain of any other major power on the same side.

Neutral major powers can only contribute to convoy chains with other major powers if the rules specifically allow it (see 5.1 Trade agreements and 13.3.2 US entry options, option 9 Resources to China). Neutral major powers’ convoys cannot transport resources or build points to other major powers unless the rules specifically allow it (see 5.1 Japan-USA, 13.3.2 US entry options, options 9 Resources to China, 15 Resources to western Allies, 17 Lend lease to China, 19 Resources to USSR, 27 Lend lease to western Allies and 30 Lend lease to USSR).

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ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

Oh, of course I want to keep that resource away from Japan as long as possible.

But in how to go about that, well, sooner or later, Japan is going to DoW the western allies, clear out anything you've got in Indo-China, and either conquer the minor if you've liberated it, or align it if you haven't. Japan's got all the edges in force concentration, keeping in supply, naval bases nearby, etc. and I doubt that even if you could hold Indo-China, that the resources involved wouldn't be better employed elsewhere.

Now, say you're the CW and you've slipped a division in before the Japanese aligned Indo-China. Maybe you've kept him there, maybe you've rotated in a Mil or Terr (or if you're a real gamey type, a weak cruiser)

Either way, you're going to be keeping that resource away from the Japanese until they either align the country or grab Hanoi. Again, in either case, you're probably not going to hold it once the Japanese DoW the western allies.

Now, if you liberate Indo-China, the partisans shift control to the Axis, at least until Japan moves into Indo-China and they revert. In that time, they'll probably realize that sooner or later they're going to have to deal with the partisans, and as such, launch them in suicide attacks at your forces to clear the ground for when they come in.

If you don't, and you just keep a body somewhere in Indo-China, the partisans stay under CW control, because Indo-China is still controlled by Vichy. That means you can cluster them up near Hanoi, or in the mountains somewhere, or wherever you think they'll be most helpful, in preparation for when the Japanese DoW you and chase you out to align the minor.


IMO anyway, if there's a partisan or two in the country, maintaining that control is worth more than a resource that's more or less superfluous to what you'd be sending to China anyway.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I'm not sure why S&S would be relevant to the discussion. Unless the Japanese have somehow bungled away the entire war in China, there is no way to get anything to China via overseas transportation unless the Burma Road is open. And if the Burma Road is open then you can just ship the resource directly northwest. (I suppose a JP ZOC might be on that hex, though).

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Vichy France can only give resources and build points to an Axis major power if she is hostile to an Allied major power (exception, see 5.1). The Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can always lend resources and build points to Vichy France.

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No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.

If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

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Allied major powers at war with the installing major power may declare war on Vichy France.

The declaration of war does not make Vichy France hostile to that Allied major power.

However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit’s controlling major power.

Vichy France can be conquered just like any other major power (see 13.7.1).

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If Vichy France is Hostile
Vichy France can be conquered just like any other major power (see: 13.7.1 Conquest).

Vichy France units do not co-operate with any major power.

Vichy French Units
Each task force counts as 1 naval move just like any other major power. Naval and aircraft units at sea don't have to return to base during the return to base step just like any other major power. Land units no longer defect before combat just like any other major power.

Vichy French controlled hexes
Units controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

Units controlled by any other Axis major power (other than the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government) can enter any Vichy controlled hex but has to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

Vichy French production
Vichy France can give resources and build points to an Axis major power just like any other major power (see: 5. Lending Stage, and 5.1 Trade Agreements).

The Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can always lend resources and build points to Vichy France.