Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is not the placement of convoy points which are the problem. You can build your US convoy line the way you want. However: if a US resource has to go to Japan, the US can only transport it through the sea areas mentioned in the joint convoy rule.

Otherwise, the recipient (i.e. Japan) has to convoy the Phillipine resource, because only resources transported through the joint convoy route are excepted from the rule which states that the recipient has to transport resources from trade agreements overseas. Even if the US transport that resource from the Phillipines into the Central Pacific, it can't go to Japan IMHO, since the convoy route used isn't part of the joint convoy mentioned in the rules.

That is the point I'm trying to make here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is not the placement of convoy points which are the problem. You can build your US convoy line the way you want. However: if a US resource has to go to Japan, the US can only transport it through the sea areas mentioned in the joint convoy rule.

Otherwise, the recipient (i.e. Japan) has to convoy the Phillipine resource, because only resources transported through the joint convoy route are excepted from the rule which states that the recipient has to transport resources from trade agreements overseas. Even if the US transport that resource from the Phillipines into the Central Pacific, it can't go to Japan IMHO, since the convoy route used isn't part of the joint convoy mentioned in the rules.

That is the point I'm trying to make here...

That's a very imaginative reading of the rule.

quote:


The USA and Japan start the game with an agreement in place to exchange a Japanese build point for US resources.

The USA must supply Japan with 4 resources each turn. Two of them must be oil resources.

These amounts can be reduced, or avoided entirely, by certain US entry options (see 13.3.2 US entry options).

Japan must lend lease the USA with 1 build point a turn until the USA embargoes strategic materials (see 13.3.2 US entry options, entry option 13 Embargo on strategic materials).

quote:

paulderynck says there is a default when:

To avoid US entry penalties (see below), the USA must have enough convoy points in the West Coast, Mendocino, Hawaiian Islands and Central Pacific ocean sea areas to transport the resources to Japan.

Similarly, Japan must have enough convoy points in the Japanese Coast sea area to transport the build point to the USA.

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While I say there is a default when:

If, for whatever reason, either side has not met its obligation to provide its resources or build point in the production step and US entry option 31. Oil embargo has not been chosen then:

That side does not get its promised resources or build point that turn, and the other side can use those points themselves;
If Japan was in default, the USA may add 2 entry markers to the Japanese entry pool; and
If the USA was in default, Japan must randomly remove 2 entry markers from the Japanese entry pool (returning them to the common entry pool). If there aren’t enough markers to remove, the USA can never declare war on Japan and must now start taking markers from the Ge/It pool. If there aren’t enough markers there, the USA can never declare war on Germany or Italy.

The USA and Japan stop supplying these resources and build points once they are at war and keep them for themselves on the turn they go to war.

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13.6.4 Lend lease
Lend lease was a device FDR invented to circumvent US neutrality laws concerning non-involvement in the war. US military goods were “leased” to the other Allies on a deferred payment or return basis (preferably without too many holes in them).

To lend lease, you must announce how many build points you are giving during the lending stage (see 5. Lending Stage). You can lend lease any number of build points to or from each major power each turn (exceptions: China and USA ~ see 13.3.2 US entry options and the USSR ~ see 5. Lending Stage). You can lend lease build points and receive them in the same turn (but not to the same major power).

Transport

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During the production step, you transport the promised build points to any city or major port in the recipient’s home country (Britain’s in the case of the Commonwealth).

You do this in exactly the same way as you transport resources (see 13.6.1), except that you can also transport an additional 2 build points to the capital and 1 to each other city and major port cumulative, each turn (e.g. you could transport 6 build points to London each turn; 2 for being the capital, 3 for the factories and 1 for the major port in the hex). Promised build points that can’t be transported are lost.

Convoy points that you use to transport resources can’t be used again to transport build points. So, for example, if you have 5 convoy points in a sea area and you transport 3 resources through it, you could only transport up to 2 build points through that sea area. Similarly, resources you ship into or out of a minor port will limit how many build points you can ship into and out of that port (see 13.6.1).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is not the placement of convoy points which are the problem. You can build your US convoy line the way you want. However: if a US resource has to go to Japan, the US can only transport it through the sea areas mentioned in the joint convoy rule.

Otherwise, the recipient (i.e. Japan) has to convoy the Phillipine resource, because only resources transported through the joint convoy route are excepted from the rule which states that the recipient has to transport resources from trade agreements overseas. Even if the US transport that resource from the Phillipines into the Central Pacific, it can't go to Japan IMHO, since the convoy route used isn't part of the joint convoy mentioned in the rules.

That is the point I'm trying to make here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

It is not the placement of convoy points which are the problem. You can build your US convoy line the way you want. However: if a US resource has to go to Japan, the US can only transport it through the sea areas mentioned in the joint convoy rule.

Otherwise, the recipient (i.e. Japan) has to convoy the Phillipine resource, because only resources transported through the joint convoy route are excepted from the rule which states that the recipient has to transport resources from trade agreements overseas. Even if the US transport that resource from the Phillipines into the Central Pacific, it can't go to Japan IMHO, since the convoy route used isn't part of the joint convoy mentioned in the rules.

That is the point I'm trying to make here...

Centuur you read it exactly as I do (and English is my only language).

The USA can use the Philippine resource only if it goes through the Central Pacific Ocean sea area.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
I'm advocating

For the resources to be supplied to Japan they must reach Japan.

For Japan to lend lease 1 BP to the USA it must reach any city or major port in the USA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
No. The USA can't do so, because of the fact that that resource can't be transported in the joint convoy line, because only US convoys in the Central Pacific, Hawaiian Islands, Mecodine and US West coast can be used for transportation of resources from the US to Japan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
No. The USA can't do so, because of the fact that that resource can't be transported in the joint convoy line, because only US convoys in the Central Pacific, Hawaiian Islands, Mecodine and US West coast can be used for transportation of resources from the US to Japan.

Except that is not what the rules say. The rules say "To avoid US entry penalties the USA must have enough convoy points in the West Coast, Mendocino, Hawaiian Islands and Central Pacific ocean sea areas to transport the resources to Japan.

Having them there is mandatory (and BTW the number of mandatory ones is 4 because that satisfies the need to avoid the entry penalty.) Using them to transport any particular resource is not mandatory as long as somehow the resources are made available to Japan in the Central Pacific sea zone. Indeed if the US took Cuba for example (setting aside how unlikely this might be before having passed Entry Options 13 and 23), it could set up convoy line from there to the West Coast and lend the Cuban resource as the second one of two.

The text in RAW8 has already been changed to make this more clear.

quote:

WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary
Q5.1-2 For at-start Trade Agreements, must the RP and BPs provided by JA, US, GE, and RU come from their respective home countries?

Harry Rowland's Answer
No, but they must satisfy rule 5. Lending Stage that is they must be delivered if possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Did somebody mention convoys? I didn't have a 2D image showing Pacific convoys to work with. Sorry.

Cheers, Neilster

quote:

WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary
Q5.1-2 For at-start Trade Agreements, must the RP and BPs provided by JA, US, GE, and RU come from their respective home countries?

Harry Rowland's Answer
No, but they must satisfy rule 5. Lending Stage that is they must be delivered if possible.

Example: After Russia has conquered Persia, Russia couldn't give the coastal Persian oil to Germany as part satisfaction of their trade agreement unless there were convoys in position to send them to Germany AND the owner of those transports is allowed, and agrees, to ship them. In all other cases the Russians would instead have to transport the resources by rail from the USSR to Germany directly. Date 07/03/2008

5. If, during production (see 13.6 Production), it is possible for the promised resources (or build points) to be delivered then they must be delivered.

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5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

13.5.1Oil (AfA option 48): You must also announce how many of the resources given are oil.

You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power (exceptions: 5.1 Trade agreements, 13.3.2 US entry options, and 17.4 Running Vichy France ~ Vichy production ~ lending to Vichy France). Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4 Running Vichy France).

Some major powers need 13.3.2 US entry options to be chosen before resources can be given to them. The USSR is further restricted in that (apart from Germany ~ see 5.1 Trade agreements) she may only give or receive up to 1 resource (or build point) per turn unless US entry option 19. Resources to USSR (and option 30. Lend lease to USSR for build points) has been chosen.

You cannot give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you. However, you can give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you. The same restrictions apply to lend leasing build points. You may however give build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

How you transport resources is described later (see 13.6.1Resources and 13.5.1Oil (AfA option 48)).

If, during production (see 13.6 Production), it is possible for the promised resources (or build points) to be delivered then they must be delivered. If you cannot meet the promise you made (for example because the convoy points were not set up, were destroyed, or a railway line cut), you still cannot use them yourself this turn.

5.1 Trade agreements
Japan-USA
The USA and Japan start the game with an agreement in place to exchange a Japanese build point for US resources. The USA must supply Japan with 4 resources each turn. Two of them must be oil resources. These amounts can be reduced, or avoided entirely, by certain US entry options (see 13.3.2). Japan must lend lease the USA with 1 build point a turn until the USA embargoes strategic materials (see 13.3.2, entry option 13).

That side does not get its promised resources or build point that turn, and the other side can use those points themselves;
If Japan was in default, the USA may add 2 entry markers to the Japanese entry pool; and
If the USA was in default, Japan must randomly remove 2 entry markers from the Japanese entry pool (returning them to the common entry pool). If there aren’t enough markers to remove, the USA can never declare war on Japan and must now start taking markers from the Ge/It pool. If there aren’t enough markers there, the USA can never declare war on Germany or Italy.

The USA and Japan stop supplying these resources and build points once they are at war and keep them for themselves on the turn they go to war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

I would be appreciate if anyone can tell me how (other than the way I have posted it) the USA can use equal or less convoy points to implement this:
The USA allocates just enough Convoy Points to reach the Japanese Coast sea area with the Oil/Resources.
The USA allocates no Convoy Points to transport the BP from the Japanese Coast sea area to reach the USA.

According to 5. Lending Stage you made a promise (the Trade Agreement) but you didn't honor the Trade Agreement.

The USA must allocate Convoy Points to transport the BP from the Japanese Coast sea area to the USA.

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Q: Japan-USA Trade Agreement. What is meant by "obligation"? The entire convoyed amount, or just the amount to send.

A: The obligation only relates to the resources and build points. Thus the US only gets the 2 entry chits if she doesn’t get her build point. Date 25/09/1997
You must set up and can’t voluntarily remove your Japan-US convoys, but if they are broken for whatever reason, you don’t have to re-establish them (if you are willing to take the US entry hits). Date 01/12/1997

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Again: RAW:

Shipment
Where possible, these resources (or build points) are transported by
rail (see 13.6.1). If this isn't possible, the recipient must provide the
convoys required to receive them (exception: the joint Japan-USA
convoy, see above). If the recipient cannot provide the convoys, they
do not receive the resources (or build points).


WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary
Q5.1-2 For at-start Trade Agreements, must the RP and BPs provided by JA, US, GE, and RU come from their respective home countries?

Harry Rowland's Answer
No, but they must satisfy rule 5. Lending Stage that is they must be delivered if possible.


Note the "if possible" in the clarification. In conjuncture with the rule on shipment on trade agreements, I'm still at my conclusion that the Phillipine resource may not be transported to Japan, using any US convoy line. Same is with the build point of Japan to the USA. That has to come out of Japan...

quote:

Q5.0-1: When is the control of resources and build points changed for Trade Agreements?

A: They may be transported as either the giver's or recipient's resources and/or build points at the giver's discretion, until they arrive in any city or major port controlled by the recipient that they can be transported to, at which point they become the recipient's (if not already). Date 09/03/2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

Did somebody mention convoys? I didn't have a 2D image showing Pacific convoys to work with. Sorry.

Cheers, Neilster

Is that an actual in gane screenshot or just

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I argued ages ago for a spherical global map but it isn't going to happen (at least on release 1). I just like to put up these "MWiF world" images I create every now and again, mainly because IMHO they look cool. As it is a 3D depiction of a WiF map I don't really think it's spam.

Cheers, Neilster

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Again: RAW:

Shipment
Where possible, these resources (or build points) are transported by
rail (see 13.6.1). If this isn't possible, the recipient must provide the
convoys required to receive them (exception: the joint Japan-USA
convoy, see above). If the recipient cannot provide the convoys, they
do not receive the resources (or build points).


WiF FE Rule Clarification Summary
Q5.1-2 For at-start Trade Agreements, must the RP and BPs provided by JA, US, GE, and RU come from their respective home countries?

Harry Rowland's Answer
No, but they must satisfy rule 5. Lending Stage that is they must be delivered if possible.


Note the "if possible" in the clarification. In conjuncture with the rule on shipment on trade agreements, I'm still at my conclusion that the Phillipine resource may not be transported to Japan, using any US convoy line. Same is with the build point of Japan to the USA. That has to come out of Japan...

As to your "Shipment" point the rule you are quoting says specifically that the US-Japan Trade agreement is an exception to it. If I as the US am allocating a resource to go to Japan due to my obligation under the Trade Agreement, how can you cite a rule that specifcally exempts the Trade Agreement from it as the rationale for me to do something different?

And you too quote from the FAQ and yet also miss your answer from within the same document:

quote:

Q5.0-1: When is the control of resources and build points changed for Trade Agreements?

A: They may be transported as either the giver's or recipient's resources and/or build points at the giver's discretion, until they arrive in any city or major port controlled by the recipient that they can be transported to, at which point they become the recipient's (if not already). Date 09/03/2009

The Philippine resource belongs to the US at its discretion and it transports it any way it likes until it reaches the Central Pacific at which point it becomes the Japanese players problem to complete the transportation. When the resource arrives in Japan, it has reached a "city or major port controlled by the recipient" and its ownership changes.

This and the prior one replying to Extraneous are my last posts to this thread as I have elucidated my position repetitively (as you gentlemen have also) and I judge further dialog to be a further waste of my time. If you are unsure of the validity of my posts and are convinced it will do irreparable harm to your gaming experience if still unsure of the answer, than I urge you to relay your question directly to ADG.

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To avoid US entry penalties (see below), the USA must have enough convoy points in the West Coast, Mendocino, Hawaiian Islands and Central Pacific ocean sea areas to transport the resources to Japan. Similarly, Japan must have enough convoy points in the Japanese Coast sea area to transport the build point to the USA.

quote:

Q5.1-3
Q: Japan-USA Trade Agreement. What is meant by "obligation"? The entire convoyed amount, or just the amount to send.
A: The obligation only relates to the resources and build points. Thus the US only gets the 2 entry chits if she doesn’t get her build point. You must set up and can’t voluntarily remove your Japan-US convoys, but if they are broken for whatever reason, you don’t have to re-establish them (if you are willing to take the US entry hits).
[Emphasis mine.]

quote:

Q5.1-3
Q: Japan-USA Trade Agreement. What is meant by "obligation"? The entire convoyed amount, or just the amount to send.
A: The obligation only relates to the resources and build points. Thus the US only gets the 2 entry chits if she doesn’t get her build point. You must set up and can’t voluntarily remove your Japan-US convoys, but if they are broken for whatever reason, you don’t have to re-establish them (if you are willing to take the US entry hits).

[Emphasis mine.]