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Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/28/2012 12:50:12 AM   
DicedT

 

Posts: 800
Joined: 11/2/2006
Status: offline 		Foreign Policy Magazine has agreed to sponsor a public playtest of Paul Rohrbaugh's Gaza wargame, "Reign of Missiles". This is a first for FP (possibly for any influential magazine), so we're hoping to get input from the wargame community. If you can spread the word on this, that would help. This is an experiment, and if it works, we might get other wargames on FP. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/11/27/launch_your_own_gaza_war

Michael

Michael Peck
Games Editor
Foreign Policy Magazine
www.foreignpolicy.com
Post #: 1
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/28/2012 8:23:46 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		I find this somewhat troubling. Granted, the rules are set up so that the player can only play the Israeli side. But it seems disturbingly possible that the people launching rockets could learn some of the vulnerabilities in the Israeli defense and figure out tactics to leak as many rockets through as they can.

Wargames of past conflicts can be a valuable tool for study, and games of potential conflicts can render great service in showing that the costs would far outweigh any gains. (And in modern warfare, they almost always do.) But gaming ongoing conflicts has the grave potential for misuse. And this must be considered an ongoing conflict: every expert on the Middle East I've heard says it is only a matter of time before the rockets start to fly again.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to DicedT)
Post #: 2
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/28/2012 11:27:41 PM   
Wolfe1759


Posts: 798
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Shropshire, UK
Status: offline 		That the subject matter here should be used as a game makes me more than a bit uncomfortable to say the least.

It unfortunately is this type of wargame that gives wargaming a bad reputation, it is appallingly insensitive to those on both sides civilian and military who have just and may again suffer what is being gamed.

_____________________________

"In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 3
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 10:08:24 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline 		I'm not sure if it's ethical to make a game out of ethnic cleansing.

But I have a few questions - which I doubt FA will deign to answer - but heck, I'll ask anyhow:

1. Does Israel get a bonus for bombing media centers and thus gagging the media?
2. Is there a bonus for the massacre of innocent civilians? IDF has been implicated indirectly and directly in numerous massacres - surely this should be modeled into the game.
3. How about bombing schools and hospitals? Does doing so reward the Israeli player such that he has to weigh this against the potential loss of international support?
4. What about torturing prisoners? Do you intend to model this to reward either player? It's being done - surely it would be reasonable to model it into the game so that torture gives a bonus, and it being uncovered by journalists is a potential penalty.
5. Is the destruction of civilian infrastructure modeled as one of the "victory point" goals of the Israeli side?

I'm no fan of rockets falling on Israel, but the imbalance of power is absurd. This isn't a wargame - this is a genocide/ethnic cleansing game.

Why not do a game about something a historical event that's over. A RTS game of the Khmer Rouge camps - where raiding the grocery stores for plastic bags allows you to save on bullets. Or how about a railroad tycoon clone modeling moving people to Auschwitz and such? Heck, a management game for the concentration camps themselves. Those are about as tasteful.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 11/29/2012 10:13:47 AM >

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“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

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Post #: 4
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 4:48:59 PM   
radic202


Posts: 598
Joined: 6/7/2012
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
Kayoz, as much as I tend to dislike sarcasm, I support what you are trying to say. This game would scare me to bonkers knowing that maybe and just maybe it could be used in a very real and dangerous way.

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It is much harder to think about doing something than actually doing it!

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Post #: 5
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 5:54:24 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202
Kayoz, as much as I tend to dislike sarcasm, I support what you are trying to say. This game would scare me to bonkers knowing that maybe and just maybe it could be used in a very real and dangerous way.


I very much doubt they could model anything accurately so that it could be used.

What's more disturbing is that someone's such a sociopath that they want to turn a tragedy like this into a wargame. It shows a complete lack of empathy for human suffering that is happening NOW.

*edit*
for clarification, "sociopath" applies to both the game creator AND the Foreign Policy editor (for supporting this).

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 11/29/2012 5:56:47 PM >

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to radic202)
Post #: 6
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 7:59:00 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 5/17/2012
Status: offline 		Wow... Hyperbole Man strikes again...

quote:

I'm not sure if it's ethical to make a game out of ethnic cleansing.

Well, given that your political leanings are on full display right out of the game, I think it's clear which side you're going to come down on.

quote:

1. Does Israel get a bonus for bombing media centers and thus gagging the media?

The media centers under which there were electronics stores manufacturing guidance mechanisms for rockets? Or the media centers broadcasting Sesame Street-style puppet shows advocating the killing of Israelis?

quote:

2. Is there a bonus for the massacre of innocent civilians? IDF has been implicated indirectly and directly in numerous massacres - surely this should be modeled into the game.

I don't know - should there be a bonus if the rockets from Gaza happen to accidentally hit something of military value instead of shopping malls and elementary schools?

quote:

3. How about bombing schools and hospitals? Does doing so reward the Israeli player such that he has to weigh this against the potential loss of international support?

Maybe we should also include propaganda on faked casualty photos?
(I'd include the images here, but for Matrix's stupid anti-spam restrictions preventing me from linking them)

quote:

4. What about torturing prisoners? Do you intend to model this to reward either player? It's being done - surely it would be reasonable to model it into the game so that torture gives a bonus, and it being uncovered by journalists is a potential penalty.

Or we could just admit that you're only interested in poor behavior by the Israelis while happily forgiving the torture that was on broad public display by the Gazans.
(I'd include more images here, but for Matrix's stupid anti-spam restrictions preventing me from linking them)

quote:

5. Is the destruction of civilian infrastructure modeled as one of the "victory point" goals of the Israeli side?

Only if you admit that it's the primary goal of the Gazans.

quote:

I'm no fan of rockets falling on Israel, but the imbalance of power is absurd. This isn't a wargame - this is a genocide/ethnic cleansing game.

Your laundry list of grievances above belies the first part of your statement.
You also clearly have not played any part of the game. The focus is on defending against rockets, not trying to bulldoze Gaza into the sea.

quote:

Or how about a railroad tycoon clone modeling moving people to Auschwitz and such?

Ah yes, an ill-informed attempt at hyperbolic humor. Especially since that game has already been made as a teaching tool... and if I was allowed to post the damn link here (instead of being caught up in Matrix's anti-spam crusade) I would post it for you. Google "train game holocaust" and hit the first link, which will take you to a Wall Street Journal article. You're welcome.


Your political leanings are quite clear. Your motivations for them are not, but are, quite frankly, irrelevant. Object to the topic if you choose to do so, but try not to be such an open propagandist for one side in the conflict when doing do.



secondary note: look, I get that Matrix wants to stop spam and therefore is going to prohibit "new" accounts from including links in their posts. But most of the 'offending' links in this post were the freakin' quotes from the guy I'm replying to!! Oy!

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 7
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 8:00:22 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 5/17/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
for clarification, "sociopath" applies to both the game creator AND the Foreign Policy editor (for supporting this).


I'm just curious if you've ever met either of them?

I've met both, and would hardly consider either of them to be sociopaths, regardless of your political crusade

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 8
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 8:22:56 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

But I have a few questions - which I doubt FA will deign to answer - but heck, I'll ask anyhow:


Why not download the game rules and answer the questions for yourself?

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 9
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 8:25:52 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant
I'm just curious if you've ever met either of them?

I've met both, and would hardly consider either of them to be sociopaths, regardless of your political crusade


I think that the fact that they're endorsing and promoting a game about ongoing mass human suffering is a pretty good indication that they're sociopaths - zero empathy for the millions of innocents suffering under an illegal occupation.

This shouldn't even be on Matrix forums, it's so distasteful. I hope the moderator locks this and hopefully deletes this thread.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 10
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 9:17:14 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 5/17/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
zero empathy for the millions

current population of Gaza is 1.6 mil or so. Not "millions" (plural)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
of innocents

are you referring to the "innocents" that voted in Hamas, who have never wavered in their assertion that Israel should not exist?
or the "innocents" that disguise rocket launchers in garbage trucks? (hit the front page at GrogNews for a picture)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
suffering under an illegal occupation.

What occupation? Israel pulled everyone out of Gaza 7 years ago, in front of all the world's cameras. They even forcibly removed some settlers who didn't want to leave. So who is occupying what?

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 11
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/29/2012 11:46:35 PM   
Wolfe1759


Posts: 798
Joined: 1/20/2008
From: Shropshire, UK
Status: offline 		I think this thread is now a good demonstration of why the subject matter isn't appropriate for a game.

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"In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 12
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 1:21:18 AM   
GDS Starfury

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

I'm not sure if it's ethical to make a game out of ethnic cleansing.

But I have a few questions - which I doubt FA will deign to answer - but heck, I'll ask anyhow:

1. Does Israel get a bonus for bombing media centers and thus gagging the media?
2. Is there a bonus for the massacre of innocent civilians? IDF has been implicated indirectly and directly in numerous massacres - surely this should be modeled into the game.
3. How about bombing schools and hospitals[/link]? Does doing so reward the Israeli player such that he has to weigh this against the potential loss of international support?
4. What about Do you intend to model this to reward either player? It's being done - surely it would be reasonable to model it into the game so that torture gives a bonus, and it being uncovered by journalists is a potential penalty.
5. Is the destruction of civilian infrastructure modeled as one of the "victory point" goals of the Israeli side?

I'm no fan of rockets falling on Israel, but the imbalance of power is absurd. This isn't a wargame - this is a genocide/ethnic cleansing game.

Why not do a game about something a historical event that's over. A RTS game of the Khmer Rouge camps - where raiding the grocery stores for plastic bags allows you to save on bullets. Or how about a railroad tycoon clone modeling moving people to Auschwitz and such? Heck, a management game for the concentration camps themselves. Those are about as tasteful.


(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 13
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 1:24:08 AM   
GDS Starfury

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

What's more disturbing is that someone's such a sociopath that they want to turn a tragedy like this into a wargame. It shows a complete lack of empathy for human suffering that is happening NOW.



of course!!! because modeling and wargaming the eastern front where over 40 million people died and most of the Holocaust happened is far more 'humane'.....

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 14
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 1:26:53 AM   
GDS Starfury

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		well Kayoz, perhaps you would be happier if, in the game, hamas gets to blow up cafes in Tel Aviv and randomly shoot rockets into residential neighborhoods.
nothing says game balance like a good suicide bombing!

(in reply to GDS Starfury)
Post #: 15
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 2:00:49 AM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline 		Extra points for bus bombings in Israel. Double points for suicide bombings of schools. Triple if the suicider bomber is a brainwashed adolescent. This thread should be locked down. Since it isn't, I'll have a say, too.

(in reply to GDS Starfury)
Post #: 16
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 5:31:37 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
zero empathy for the millions

current population of Gaza is 1.6 mil or so. Not "millions" (plural)


Get your facts straight before posting rubbish like this
Population of Palestinians:
3.7 million Palestinian territories
2.7 million Palestinian refugees in Jordan
1 million in Israel

Yes, millions. Plural.

Do some research before posting this sort of ignorant drivel on the forums.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
suffering under an illegal occupation.

What occupation? Israel pulled everyone out of Gaza 7 years ago, in front of all the world's cameras. They even forcibly removed some settlers who didn't want to leave. So who is occupying what?


Anything past the 1967 borders is occupied territory. That's international law.

But this is a topic not suited to Matrix forums. This thread should be locked by an admin.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 17
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 8:41:19 AM   
MikeGER

 

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

This isn't a wargame - this is a genocide/ethnic cleansing game.



genocide? my a**,
Kayoz, you don't know what a genocide is (your talking to the expert here ...so some may say ;-) )
as long as no box cars full of Pallys get moved out dime a dozen to some industrial operated killing plants and not one third of the world Pally population is about to get exterminated in just 6 years, you better be careful with (ab)using those terms.

Don't worry Kayoz, Pallys in Gaza are not in short supply, and there were actually more 'little future terrorist born' in that week there then mature Hamas Militia men get neutralized, which of course all magically transformed to civilians, farmers, by-standers, when shown in in the hospital morgues to the Pallywood-craving international media.
concerning collateral damage: yes its there!
but if you take a look at Tokyo, Hamburg and Dresden, when it comes to winning a war against some dertmined Total War mongering enemy ... i think Gaza city got more then lucky. Still more then enuf Pallys left to celebrate the next 9/11 (i didnt forget )

on A Reign of Missiles:
IMHO: the Gaza game is not a wargame. its more a 'political simulation'.
maybe not a wise idea launching that in an hot ongoing cyber/media -propaganda war. (see above )
where Kayoz seam to have fallen victim to the Pallywood movies already.

DicedT, don't get my wrong, personaly i think its very interesting to analyze the tactical situation of actual conflicts,
But from a pure military tactical operation point of view ...so 'wargame' a ground attack into the Gaza strip -with for example a Combat Mission: Shock Force Mod- and of course with minimized collateral damage and causalities adjusted in the victory conditions. But please no political or diplomacy points beyond the setup.
It just generate threads like this.

< Message edited by MikeGER -- 11/30/2012 9:06:41 AM >

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 18
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 11:27:08 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER
Kayoz, you don't know what a genocide is (your talking to the expert here ...so some may say ;-) )


Argumentum ad verecundiam? That's such a common refuge for those who can't defend their positions in a debate. I hope you weren't intending this statement as your knockout punch. Epic fail, by any debate standards.

But perhaps it does illuminate the reasons behind your attitude that you know better than anyone else. A sad and pathetic position, revealing your inability to use reason or logic in a debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER
as long as no box cars full of Pallys


Aah, another clue as to your position. Assigning a derogatory name to a group is a common tactic. Tutsis called the Hutus "inyenzi". American slavers called the blacks "n**gers". On and on it goes.

Funny how you're doing the same thing, isn't it?


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER
Pallys in Gaza are not in short supply, and there were actually more 'little future terrorist born' in that week there then mature Hamas Militia men get neutralized, which of course all magically transformed to civilians, farmers, by-standers, when shown in in the hospital morgues to the Pallywood-craving international media.


Another argument put forward by many racists - that children of their hatred target will only grow into adults of that group. The next logical (and all too common) step in that argument is the advocation of the murder of those children.

Silly me, but I see children as a blank - they're kids who are no more inherently evil or destined to commit acts of evil than any other group. By your statement, you disagree - and children are just little monsters. That is, in my book, the all too common ranting of a racist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER
concerning collateral damage: yes its there!


If you read the Goldstone report, the incidents weren't "collateral damage" - they were attacks specifically targeting the innocent, defenseless civilians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeGER
i think Gaza city got more then lucky. Still more then enuf Pallys left to celebrate the next 9/11 (i didnt forget )


Palestinians had nothing to do with 9/11 - the terrorists there were almost all Saudi Arabians.

Still, it's very indicative of your racist mindset that you're attaching the acts of a few to the entire population. It's quite common in the rantings of many a racist to justify their actions. We only killed a few n**gers - there's plenty left.

Interesting isn't it, how so many of your statements are exactly those put forward by frothing racists?

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 11/30/2012 11:32:33 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 19
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 11:37:49 AM   
bayonetbrant

 

Posts: 431
Joined: 5/17/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Population of Palestinians:
3.7 million Palestinian territories
2.7 million Palestinian refugees in Jordan
1 million in Israel

((snip))

Anything past the 1967 borders is occupied territory. That's international law.


So you don't want to talk about the facts of the Gaza wargame. You just want to stand on a soapbox and yell about how 'bad' Israel is. Got it.

Just remember that people who weren't reasoned into their positions can't be reasoned out of them. I'll spare us both (as well as the onlookers) by walking away now and letting you wander on with whatever thoughts you prefer

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 20
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 11:47:03 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant
So you don't want to talk about the facts of the Gaza wargame. You just want to stand on a soapbox and yell about how 'bad' Israel is. Got it.

Just remember that people who weren't reasoned into their positions can't be reasoned out of them. I'll spare us both (as well as the onlookers) by walking away now and letting you wander on with whatever thoughts you prefer


Funny how I point out the WRONG assertions you made, and you try to imply that it's I who made the mistake.

You got the population numbers wrong. Not me.
You got the occupation facts wrong. Not me.

Yes, I agree. Walk away. Spare everyone your ignorant tripe.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to bayonetbrant)
Post #: 21
RE: Testing a Gaza wargame - 11/30/2012 3:01:43 PM   
IainMcNeil


Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline 		This has gone a bit nasty. Locking it up.

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Iain McNeil
Director
Matrix Games

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 22
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