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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/3/2013 8:37:19 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
If John can get his bombardment TFs in to reduce Sabang it won't hold long.


Well, having 900 mines there helps. Sure, his CAs and BBs can stand offshore and still shoot at you, but any missteps and DDs will move in close to shore and get bludgeoned. If he tries to sweep those mines, you've got a nice "rock/paper/scissors" analogy with your CD support. It will be a very costly endeavor for him to crack that tough nut.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/3/2013 8:58:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		In re-reading the last few pages of the AAR last night, I came across Cap Mandrake's request for a screenshot of northern Sumatra. Somehow, I missed it previously. In Cap's honor, however, here it is:




Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 2:07:09 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		I've seen the text combat report for the 12/25/42 turn (but I haven't viewed the movie yet). No major IJ attacks this turn. But before I enter the orders for 12/26, I ought to state that I am counting on there being no wonkiness in game mechanics that would unduly influence how a massive air battle would shake out. IE, I have 350 fighters crewed by excellent pilots and lots of AA at Sabang. If the defences are overwhelmed in a fair fight, so be it. I will have take the loss, lick the wounds, and fight again another day.

But I do recall that in GreyJoy's game vs. Rader there were huge oddities in game mechanics for massive air battles. I don't recall how it worked and I don't know if subsequent patches have resolved them. If there are such things - IE, if it's something weird like "only 200 fighters on CAP will get employed and then for only three passes and then the excess enemy planes get free shots," well, that would be a wonkiness that I didn't understand, which is on me. If that's the case, I've built Fortress Sabang on a flawed foundation and that too is on me. However, I sure hope it's just a fair fight.

But if anybody has any air combat wisdom to impart, now would be the time. I have a feeling the alarm clock is about to go off. :)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/4/2013 2:08:33 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 3:45:47 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		The absence of replies confirms that I am doing everything perfectly, right? :)

The fighter squadrons at Sabang have about the best the Allies can offer. All F4F, P-40K, and P-38G. There's nothing better I could put in the air at this point. The pilots are top notch (at least by my standard for the Allies at this point in the game). Average experience is in the low 70s with lots of TraCom qualified pilots. These were guys tested and found true in the big air wars over Ramree Island and Akyab several months ago. All fighters have been set to range zero and CAP 80% or 90% for quite some time. Most have very high morale with fatigue in the teens or less.

How will John attack? Will he choose a single day to attack by both air and sea, hoping to overwhelm the CAP and deliver mortal blows via bombs and bombardment runs? Or will he first try to overcome CAP via sweeps, then follow on later days with the ships and carriers? I don't know. The latter course offers much less risk to him - if his sweeps do poorly, he hasn't impaled his navy. So my guess is he does that.

So, I probably will keep my carrier fighters aboard ship as opposed to sending some of them forward now. That's the main decision I'm weighing this turn.

Or, could John cross me up, ignore Sabang, and send his carriers on another deep raid? I don't think so, but it's possible.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 3:53:38 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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Status: offline 		Thanks for posting that screenshot. Very interesting.

Re. the upcoming fighter contest, that is an amazing assemblage of fighters for the Arries in Dec 42.

1) Don't know about the 200 fighter limit. If true, a staging base within ferry-hop range to bring in fresh meat...err...I mean fighters would be important. Equally, it would be useful to have a base where groups could retire for R&R

2) If you have replete skilled fighter pilot pools you can overstuff the squadrons with pilots to improve the fatigue curve.

3) How many P-38F/G do you have?

4) Find some AA units with the big caliber guns to push up the flak ceiling. Ground to air radar..almost certainly you have that already.

5) Tweak the squadron and Air HQ CO's

6) Rots of aviation support.

7) Recon aircraft to find out where he is coming from and hit back.

8) Layered SCTF's at Sabang to prevent a night bombardment disaster. High tonnage AE's and naval support to rearm BB's quickly.

9) Post the P-38's above the P-39's and have lots of form letter for the families of the P-39 pilots.

10) RAF night fighters if you have some yet (unless you have a house rule).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 3:59:17 PM   
pws1225

 

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quote:

The absence of replies confirms that I am doing everything perfectly, right? :)


Nope, it means we don't have a clue either.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:03:35 PM   
catwhoorg


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Status: offline 		Move Sabang to the Marianas. Then you can have a turkey shoot.

Beyond that, I got nothing, beyond a great interest in seeing how this plays out.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:12:07 PM   
Canoerebel


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Thanks, Cap. My comment are in bold red.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

1) Don't know about the 200 fighter limit. If true, a staging base within ferry-hop range to bring in fresh meat...err...I mean fighters would be important. Equally, it would be useful to have a base where groups could retire for R&R. P-40K, P-38 and F4Fs can stage in from Ceylon and Assam.

2) If you have replete skilled fighter pilot pools you can overstuff the squadrons with pilots to improve the fatigue curve. All squadrons overstuffed.

3) How many P-38F/G do you have? 25 P-38G. I'm about to move 7 P-38E in from Ceylon. Not enough, but the Allies doen't get any.

4) Find some AA units with the big caliber guns to push up the flak ceiling. Ground to air radar..almost certainly you have that already. Lots of flak in place, I think including some of the heavies from Ceylon.

5) Tweak the squadron and Air HQ CO's. Done.

6) Rots of aviation support. Something like 700 av support present and that's doubled for a level 8 field, so 1400. Overstuffed.

7) Recon aircraft to find out where he is coming from and hit back. I've been doing that, but have now pulled back recon (and moved all patrols to dot hexes) in order to free up max space for fighters. No room for bombers anyway.

8) Layered SCTF's at Sabang to prevent a night bombardment disaster. High tonnage AE's and naval support to rearm BB's quickly. Layered as best as possoble. 900+ mines. Five of six PT Boat squadrons. Seven or eight combat TFs, including two with fast USN BBs. All combat ships can replenish at Sabang due to high number of nav support plus AKE and AE.

9) Post the P-38's above the P-39's and have lots of form letter for the families of the P-39 pilots. No P-39s present. They don't have range to make the hop. Neither do the Hurricanes.

10) RAF night fighters if you have some yet (unless you have a house rule). No night fighters present, but John and I have discussed this and agree that massive nighttime raids are not kosher.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:14:55 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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Status: offline 		Assuming there is a rule against night bombing, here is what I predict John will do.

1) Assemble a massive air armada

2) Bring his big boys at sea

then--


....Start the fighter sweeps. Fresh squadron after fresh squadron. No bombers at the start. 5-7 days of this, maybe longer, until things begin to tilt

....In come his SCTF's at night. Fast BB's following a cruiser force following 2 or 3 CL/DD groups. Last in line are the slower BB's to bombard, hoping to avoid surface combat.

...More of the same the next night..and the next.

...If his bombardment taffys score then the bombing starts by air.

...carriers stand off in the IO to interdict your carriers or damaged Allied vessels.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:17:36 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Thanks, Cap. My comment are in bold red.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

1) Don't know about the 200 fighter limit. If true, a staging base within ferry-hop range to bring in fresh meat...err...I mean fighters would be important. Equally, it would be useful to have a base where groups could retire for R&R. P-40K, P-38 and F4Fs can stage in from Ceylon and Assam.

2) If you have replete skilled fighter pilot pools you can overstuff the squadrons with pilots to improve the fatigue curve. All squadrons overstuffed.

3) How many P-38F/G do you have? 25 P-38G. I'm about to move 7 P-38E in from Ceylon. Not enough, but the Allies doen't get any.

4) Find some AA units with the big caliber guns to push up the flak ceiling. Ground to air radar..almost certainly you have that already. Lots of flak in place, I think including some of the heavies from Ceylon.

5) Tweak the squadron and Air HQ CO's. Done.

6) Rots of aviation support. Something like 700 av support present and that's doubled for a level 8 field, so 1400. Overstuffed.

7) Recon aircraft to find out where he is coming from and hit back. I've been doing that, but have now pulled back recon (and moved all patrols to dot hexes) in order to free up max space for fighters. No room for bombers anyway.

8) Layered SCTF's at Sabang to prevent a night bombardment disaster. High tonnage AE's and naval support to rearm BB's quickly. Layered as best as possoble. 900+ mines. Five of six PT Boat squadrons. Seven or eight combat TFs, including two with fast USN BBs. All combat ships can replenish at Sabang due to high number of nav support plus AKE and AE.

9) Post the P-38's above the P-39's and have lots of form letter for the families of the P-39 pilots. No P-39s present. They don't have range to make the hop. Neither do the Hurricanes.

10) RAF night fighters if you have some yet (unless you have a house rule). No night fighters present, but John and I have discussed this and agree that massive nighttime raids are not kosher.





Nice defense. 900 mines! Santa Maria!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:21:27 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		That seems likely. My counter will be to feed in the carrier fighters as theater reserve to augment the LBA, assuming that doing so seems to promise effective results. However, if massed IJ fighter sweeps obviously foretell a story of doom, the Allies may have to make some hard decisions.

As crsutton noted several pages back, one of the lessons that can be learned from this is whether it's possible for the Allies to strike this deeply in 1942. Now, obviously, an astute player could take what I've done and do it bigger and better, but all-in-all, this was a hugely successful operation. The Allies have massive resources in northern Sumatra - sea, air, land. If I can't make this stick, then I've got to radically rethink my way of doing things.

P.S. I'm glad Nemo has been quiet the past few weeks. If he were around, he'd be thrashing me good for any numer of transgressions. But poo on that. I like what the Allies have done.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:26:52 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

12/24/42


Strategic Bombing and House Rules: Chickenboy, the House Rule prohibits strat bombing until 1/1/1944. The Allies hold Medan at the moment - this might not be long term, but the fuel from that base really helped the ships at Sabang. Magwe is still in Japanese hands. I think I agreed to House Rules that were somewhat lopsided in favor of Japan, but since I agreed to 'em, 'nuff said. Next time, though, I won't agree to the "no 4EB of land units" unless Japan concedes something similar nor the strat bombing rule. In fact, I'd just prefer to Go Bullwinkle - no house rules. The heck with house rules. A pox upon house rules for a clumsy lout.



Have to agree with you here Dan. I said it before, by accepting the strat bombing HR this almost negates the Sabang gambit. The lack of threat to his oil centers makes the position less useful in 43 and allows him to move hundreds of fighters away from protecting oil centers to offensive operations. Japan at this point already has too many aircraft. Heck, just the threat of a carrier raid on Palembang or other points in 43 would tie up some of his aircraft. Frankly if the Japanese player if fool enough to let the Allies get a foot in the DEI in 42-43, he deserves to get his oil centers pasted.

I even hate the ban on troop bombing by 4Es more so. It means that you will have very few assets to attack his land forces through mid 44 while he will have the ability to mass hundreds of his bombers to attack your troops. at will. I will admit that the situation reverses itself in late 44 where the Allied 4Es are so numerous that they can really hurt Japanese troops, but it takes quite a long time before the Allied medium bombers can carry the load due to the poor replacement rates and superior number of Japanese fighters. The rule effectively reverses the historical reality and gives the Japanese player a significant tactical edge for much of the game.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:29:05 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		I wholeheartedly agree, Ross.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:30:41 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

In fact, I'd just prefer to Go Bullwinkle - no house rules. The heck with house rules. A pox upon house rules for a clumsy lout.


I am pretty sure that this is what my wife means when she says "go commando."

One note on your CAP. Probably a bit late but even with a dire need for front line fighters, I would not use the P38 on point defense vs an expected fight vs superior numbers. The service ratings make them a one shot deal as a good day of tojo sweeps will most likely put the majority out of action. After that the service rating just makes them a liability. This is how I kill franks and georges. I just look for them stationed at forward bases that do not have a rail line escape route. Sweep then bomb and they die like flies.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 9/4/2013 4:40:32 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:35:48 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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Status: offline 		Too bad you have to do the fight with P-40's and F4F's.

900 mines might just make it impossible for night bombardment.

Also, I am pretty sure you thought of this but you do need CD guns to drive off any DMS that show up.

The PT boats will drive him nuts. He might have to do the whole thing in the air. Fun to watch.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:38:05 PM   
catwhoorg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

P.S. I'm glad Nemo has been quiet the past few weeks. If he were around, he'd be thrashing me good for any numer of transgressions. But poo on that. I like what the Allies have done.


I think he baited you into a being a bit over zealous with the landings in Malaya. I'm not sure they really helped your position in the long run.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:40:01 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		John lost several of his good DMS in a surface engagement a couple of days ago.

Sabang doesn't have CD - I put what I had at Nias and Sinabang (the rest previosly being committed at Diego Garcia and Ramree Island).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:40:40 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

So, I probably will keep my carrier fighters aboard ship as opposed to sending some of them forward now. That's the main decision I'm weighing this turn.

It depends what you plan on doing with your carriers. One option would be to get far below and outside the KB. Even if you don't really plan on attacking he would be uncomfortable if you were in a position to come in from behind him. That MIGHT keep the KB at a distance or at least reduce the number of sorties he could fly. He would have to keep fighters , torpedoes and operational points in the bank, sos to speak, on the off chance you would come at him. If you just stayed north and close to India he might not be too concerned with watching his back, but you could shuttle fighters in. If you do go broad and deep you probably can't shuttle fighters in. Either way I'd keep them on you flight decks. You really don't have enough diverse airfields so the CV's represent you fighter reserve. No matter how good you one basket is, it would be crazy to put all your eggs into it. A good bombardment might happen and that would mess up a lot of planes

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:42:06 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John lost several of his good DMS in a surface engagement a couple of days ago.

Sabang doesn't have CD - I put what I had at Nias and Sinabang (the rest previosly being committed at Diego Garcia and Ramree Island).



I really find CDs to be mostly ineffective vs bombardment TFs. They are useful when a landing comes in though.

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:43:05 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

P.S. I'm glad Nemo has been quiet the past few weeks. If he were around, he'd be thrashing me good for any numer of transgressions. But poo on that. I like what the Allies have done.


I think he baited you into a being a bit over zealous with the landings in Malaya. I'm not sure they really helped your position in the long run.



He didn't bait me. I did that willingly with the good counsel and prodding of Nemo. I think the move was a good one - it denied John Alor Star's airfield for six weeks and made it easier for me to shut down Georgetown. But, in the end, I could have done that much better. I just lacked the vision to see how to do it. I might have been better served to stick wtithin my own vision.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:48:45 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		John Dillworth described the challenge perfectly. I've weighed the options he describes. At the moment, my preference is to keep my carriers on the periphery, closer to Ceylon than Sabang, where John at least has keep the KB somewhat honest and from which I can shuttle carrier fighters forward to Sabang if needed.

While I don't want to lose Sabang, the carriers are more important, so I don't want to risk them. One option is to transfer the carrier squadrons (including strike aircraft) to Ceylon to serve as theater reserve and to then move the carriers back to the other side of Addu Atoll. That's an option I may employ if John's real near term target is the carriers rather than Sabang.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 4:51:05 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John lost several of his good DMS in a surface engagement a couple of days ago.

Sabang doesn't have CD - I put what I had at Nias and Sinabang (the rest previosly being committed at Diego Garcia and Ramree Island).



I really find CDs to be mostly ineffective vs bombardment TFs. They are useful when a landing comes in though.

Mostly, but at 10,000 yards see my AAR for >50 hits on BBs.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 5:26:48 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

While I don't want to lose Sabang, the carriers are more important, so I don't want to risk them. One option is to transfer the carrier squadrons (including strike aircraft) to Ceylon to serve as theater reserve and to then move the carriers back to the other side of Addu Atoll. That's an option I may employ if John's real near term target is the carriers rather than Sabang.

Potentially, there might be a lot of juicy cripples if the big boys go at it. What you are lacking on land is a significant naval strike ability. You might never have so many ships in so small a space before so you have to keep you strike options open. If you win a big sea battle you might consider going for broke and trading punches with the KB. Honestly, with all the ships around here I'd be surprised to see a large number of coordinated carrier strikes on desirable targets but you never know.

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 6:23:41 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		12/25/42

Carriers: Enemy carrier TF reported at Padang. Picket DE Stewart, well to the west, reports being snoped by an enemy dive bombers. So the enemy carriers are close. The Allied carriers are SW of Ceylon. I'm still measuring options. One that I'm tinkering with most avidly is to send two fighter squadrons forward to Langsa (level three airfield that's getting visited by lots of unescorted Helens each turn) and shifting most other aicraft to Ceylon bases, and then moving the carriers NW past Male/Addu into safer waters. Not sure I'll do that yet, but I'm leaning that way.

Sumatra: Damaged BB California takes two torps from subs north of Sabang. Her FLT damage is 97 and she's hung out in no-man's-land, which makes the FLT damage kind of merciful - the decision to scuttle the ship is easy. Thanks to Cap Mandrake's suggestions, I double check my HQ command and learn that 7th USAAF is led by a complete lunatic. I swap him out for a guy that knows what he's doing. I also shuffle around commanders of the combat TFs a bit to maximize their qualities. For instance, Bull Halsey was in command of two slow BBs, but swaps them out for two fast ones. Sabang forts go to 2.01 and airfield to 8.09. Mines drop to 888, so if John's coming, he might as well come sooner rather than later.

Elsewhere: Small things are happening here and there, but everything pales in comparison to Sumatra, so no need to go into them now.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/4/2013 6:26:02 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 7:44:07 PM   
String


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Status: offline 		also check your SCTF numbers. IIRC TF's with smaller numbers still engage first, so you might want to rearrange yours to have a few PT boat TF's with the smaller numbers to engage the bombardment TF's first.

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 8:01:31 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		Wow, String, great tip. I'll see what I can do. If that's true, the CA Frobisher TF is gonna take it on the chin, because it's low man on the totem pole. The two fast USN BB TFs (one with two BB, the other with one) are led by Arleigh Burk and Bull Halsey. I don't think I could do better than that. :)

I've just about decided to strip my carriers of some fighters and strike squadrons, sending two fighter squadrons to Langsa and some fo the other squadrons to Ceylon. This might work an ambush on enemy bombers while also giving John the first new look in awhile. He's had plenty of time to get comfortable. The downside is the risk of an enemy bombardment run against Langsa, but patrols don't report any enemy combat TFs nearby and I can rail disaabled aircraft to Sabang if necessary.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 8:08:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		"Duh," question: A fighter squadron on a CVE disbanded in port (here it's Sabang) will fly normal CAP missions, right?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 8:24:52 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		A final note. My sexy "change of pace" idea doesn't work, because the carriers are 25 hexes from Sabang and F4Fs only have a range of 23. Oops!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 8:41:46 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

"Duh," question: A fighter squadron on a CVE disbanded in port (here it's Sabang) will fly normal CAP missions, right?


I don't think so. I think you have to create an air combat taffy with the CVE...undock...then fly off the squadron to Sabang...then disband the CVE again.

If you transfer the squadron to Sabang while the CVE is in port, it simulates taking the props or wings off and hoisting them by crane onto a truck and thence to the airfield. They will flip over to damaged.

Similary, aircraft sitting in the hangar or on the deck of docked CVE can't take off. No wind across the deck.


< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 9/4/2013 8:49:42 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3389
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/4/2013 8:48:57 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Wasn't the surface combat TF engagement order randomized in some fashion on a previous patch?

Someobody who read the patch notes speak up.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 3390
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