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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 3:33:11 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Do you have construction engineers on premise aka SeaBees? Or just aviation support? You should be repairing faster than that. But then, you should have been getting more raid time warning, from all documentation I could find and the limited testing I was able to do.

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Post #: 4231
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 3:41:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Three SeaBee units are present plus other engineers. I was shocked at the lack of repair.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 3:58:33 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hans, one of the confusing things about that nuclear bombardment is that the engineers aren't repairing damage expeditiously. I do have a ton of them there, but the airfield only improved from 79 damage to 72 damage a day after the attack. That suprises me.

There were other surprises - while the bombardment torched the airfield and aircraft it didn't touch supply, the port (and ships) and the ground troops.

Oddities abound, but that's the nature of war. :)

A looong time ago Michael made a change so that engineers' performance is affected by disruption (and I assume fatigue, morale). I have seen that enemy naval bombardments have a far greater disruptive effect on support units like construction type engineers than on combat units. And they work like 5 minutes per day until they get the movies and hot showers fixed.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 4:04:08 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The bombardments didn't affect the engineers or other ground troops. No disruption or fatigue or morale problems. Odd, eh?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 4:11:09 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		He had 40 engineer vehicles on site before the attack. Plenty of supply. Only 7 points of repair. I need to go find Alfred's repair guide.

<edit>

Not Alfred, but I did find this really informative link...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137


9.4.2 - BASE CONSTRUCTION/REPAIR:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2211852

1. If you have any friendly ENG unit at base then you get a bonus ENG value of 5 to total eng value regardless of opMode.
2. Repairs are free but you must have ENG in Combat mode, however you do get the +5 bonus in spite of opMode so repairs might occur(just real slow) depending on base size.
3. Construction is not free and ENG must be in Combat mode.


There is a LOT of reading in that link, and I keep getting interrupted at some silly thing called work I do see below some of the engineers were disrupted, I bet that was the cause. I'll be curious if the repair points go up as the disruption goes down, as long as the bombers can be kept at bay. I'll keep looking, as long as work allows.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 1/27/2016 5:50:01 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 4:31:35 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Here's an update, and likely your answer, regarding engineers. As I'll show in a moment, they did suffer disruption but no fatigue or disablements. In fact, all support troops (HQ, engineers, base support) suffered about 50% disruption, 0 fatigue, 0 disablements in the bombardments. But the ground troops weren't touched. Here's an example including all major ground troops and engineer units (note that there are alot of the latter). Figures are: Disruption/Fatigue/Disablement

1. SWPac HQ: 47/3/0
2. 164 RCT: 0/3/0
3. 132 RCT: 0/3/0
4. 762 Tanks: 0/2/0
5. 1st Marines: 0/5/0
6. 813 EAB: 49/3/0
7. 2 USMC EAB: 41/3/0
8. 193 Construction Reg't: 49/3/0
9. 8th Sea Bees: 49/3/0
10. 15th Sea Bees: 49/3/0
11. 22nd Sea Bees: 49/3/0

Supply at the base is now 282k. It was at 302k just before the bombardment, but there was also a transfer of at least 10k (and possibly considerably more) to Langsa. So the bombardment had minimal affect on supply.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 4:47:29 PM   
JocMeister

 

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 5:57:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		02/20/43

When Clint awakened he didn't know where he was. It was dark. It was cool. Light rain was falling. He was hurt. And his shirt and jeans were matted; he figured it had to be his own blood. Then he remembered. He'd been out from the wagons in the night, scouting the terrain. It was then that the Commanchees had attacked. He didn't know how he'd been wounded. He thought that a day or two had passed since the attack. He wasn't sure what had become of the wagons and the settlers. He feared the worst. The first thing he needed to do was figure out how badly he'd been injured.

Battle of Sumatra: No enemy shipping at Sabang today (mines holding steady at 956). More enemy sweeps - mostly Zeroes - get the best of the Allies, the losses on both sides aren't particularly high (though my fighters are performing notably more poorly - possibly fatigue). The enginners and other suport troops are down to low 20s disruption. Runway damage is down to 49. Supply is at 280k. 1st Marines have left to take a blocking position in the jungle on the road to Langsa. A remnant USA battalion has long been in the jungle at the end of the yellow road to provide a warning in case John tries that approach. I've decided to allow it to rebuild. It's up to 20 AV and it's jungle rough terrain. If John does send 19th Div. up this road, by the time it arrives this unit might be a speed bump given the terrain.

No sign of combat ships in the Malacca Straits, so I'm somewhat confident (not entirely, due to rain and lower PBY performance due to damage in the recent bombardment) that nothing's coming from that direction tomorrow. But it looks like a cruiser TF is inbound from the west. Perhaps John stripped the KB or escorts to create a surface raiding force to take on the Cleveland/Birmingham TF. But it's going to vacate port tonight on a short mission, hopefully thus making John swing and miss. My fondest hope is that his combat ships will come in so fast that they'll race right into the minefields. (In the last month, I think Sabang's mines have score hits on one CA, two CL and three DD.)

Three or four fletchers are online and will be leaving Colombo with a USN CLAA. I have three combat TFs spread out looking for a window into Sabang.

I think another 10-point IJN DD damaged in the big naval battle went down. That should make three, along with a 7-pointer, two CL (Tama and Agano), plus "heavy fires/heavy damage" to Fuso and "heavy fires" to another BB (Nagato, I think).

DEI: John has nav search up at Denpasar. Judys sortied ineffectively against two USN DD raiders.

Elsewhere: Lots of planning, prep, and ship positioning going on (as has been the case since the start). There are lots of openings out there but lack of unrestricted troops and PP makes me think that biding my time awhile is the better idea. Rather than simply give John a manageable target, I'll wait until the time is ripe to strike a big blow.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/27/2016 7:00:24 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:14:49 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Status: offline 		Sadly minefields won´t protect you. Not even 900+ mines and nor will CD guns.

Not sure if its intentional or not but CD guns are only effective against landings and covering straits. Mines are mostly just a waste of time. I use them to protect against enemy mine laying subs.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 1/27/2016 7:16:51 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:22:50 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Yeah, I know they aren't effective in stopping BBs, but mines are certainly effective in damaging CAs, CLs, and DDs. John is now particularly, hurtfully short of CAs. Every time he loses one it will be a dagger. He's going to have a tough time come '44.

Did you note the makeup of the big combat TF featuring Yamato, Nagato and Fuso? There were no CAs. Not a one. The escorts consisted of CL Agano and five DDs. That was such an odd combination that it gave me some hope (before the shells started flying) that the Allies might be able to score. I had BB Indiana, CAs Hawkins, Wichita and Quincy, CL Cleveland, and about six or seven DDs. They fought hard, but the odd configuration of John's TF wasn't decisive.

But the lack of cruisers is enlightening, no? If John couldn't spare them for that mission, how much more might he be hurting for escorts now that he's lost two CLs and four DDs? He probably has more he can call on, but the well isn't inexaustable.

These kind of thoughts are optimistic thoughts. When John returns with six BBs, three CAs, and 25 DDs, I'll have pessimistic ones.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:32:13 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Be careful about sending your forces out in penny packets, 4 Fletchers will get swamped, 8 Fletchers might survive a battle.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:33:17 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Sadly minefields won´t protect you. Not even 900+ mines and nor will CD guns.

Not sure if its intentional or not but CD guns are only effective against landings and covering straits. Mines are mostly just a waste of time. I use them to protect against enemy mine laying subs.

One of the quirks of the game. Bombardment TFs can stay outside of CD range and minefields, but still have range to reach airfields that would likely be farther inland than the CD artillery.

Given the low number of mines produced, why doesn't the game allow you to sweep your own mines and recycle them? Defensive minefields in rear areas are useless for the Allies from 1943 onward. They have more than enough minesweepers to patrol every port making any Japanese attempt to mine with subs an exercise in futility.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:50:07 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Mines at Sabang are a significant asset. I began this seige with 962 maintained by two ACM. There are still 956. Six IJN ships have hit mines - a CA, two CL and three DD. John hates seeing the Kaigun attrited by two things in particular: mines and PT boats. They seriously get inside his head (especially PT boats back in the WitP days when they were uber weapons).

Back in mid to late January, a Japanese combat TF visited Sabang. A CA and a DD took hits. The CA was subsequently sunk (as was another CA, if memory serves) while retiring. That was the last visit by an enemy combat ship for nearly a month. For a long time, I considered making a post about those two mines being the turning point of the campaign since they bought so much time.

Every mine hit now is signficant, not just for the ships damaged but for John's morale. He loves his ships.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/27/2016 7:51:31 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:52:14 PM   
Lecivius


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From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Did you note the makeup of the big combat TF featuring Yamato, Nagato and Fuso? There were no CAs. Not a one. The escorts consisted of CL Agano and five DDs. That was such an odd combination that it gave


That may have been intentional. I'm not keeping score on his losses, but it has been widely discussed to keep ship types grouped & not mixed. It had something to do with range gates. Also, you try to watch your ship speeds (don't mix fast & slow BB's etc.).

Hopefully someone with a better understanding than I will chime in & correct me if I am wrong.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 1/27/2016 8:33:14 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 6:54:25 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		John has lost nine CAs by my count, so he's hurting on that score. CAs seem like Japan's Achilles Heel, to me. He does get four extra in this mod, but at least two don't come along until later.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 7:24:19 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Sadly minefields won´t protect you. Not even 900+ mines and nor will CD guns.

Not sure if its intentional or not but CD guns are only effective against landings and covering straits. Mines are mostly just a waste of time. I use them to protect against enemy mine laying subs.

From various discussions on the forums including multiple devs, both intentional and historical.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 7:25:39 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

With the KB in a blocking position, these are my options right now:

1. Flood the KB with merchant ships to soak off sorties.
Would you really do that? Is that a reaction to his night bombing just after discussing it?

Then send combat ships to Sabang. This I won't do on general principles. Nemo, a crafty tactician, would do so without hesitation. But I'd hate that if it was done to me and I'm sure John would hate it if I did it to him.

2. Bring in the American carriers. No can do. I currently have five and fighter numbers are low. The odds of success would be remote.

3. Hunker down and take punishment until something gives, if ever. Let mines and subs do some work. There's lots of supply to work with. Try to dance with the CL Cleveland and Birmingham TF to prevent these last ships from getting wiped out. Even if John shuts down the airfield, he still has work to do to get to Sabang and take it.



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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 8:35:58 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Would you really do that? Is that a reaction to his night bombing just after discussing it?



wiptqs - you should have read the rest of the paragraph:

quote:


This I won't do on general principles. Nemo, a crafty tactician, would do so without hesitation. But I'd hate that if it was done to me and I'm sure John would hate it if I did it to him.






< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/27/2016 9:37:42 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 8:37:47 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I just returned from a nice hike in the mountains during which a far more apt comparison for John III occurred to me: He's not Jackson, Hood or McClellan. He's Phillip Sheridan at Cedar Creek, riding hard to rally his troops and save them from utter disaster.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/27/2016 9:39:10 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 8:50:25 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Would you really do that? Is that a reaction to his night bombing just after discussing it?



wiptqs - you should have read the rest of the paragraph:

quote:


This I won't do on general principles. Nemo, a crafty tactician, would do so without hesitation. But I'd hate that if it was done to me and I'm sure John would hate it if I did it to him.






I had read that, but I was surprised even to see the item listed.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 8:52:08 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		John and I exchanged email last night and this a.m. about night bombing.

First, I asked him his intentions and understanding about it. He replied this way: "No Night Port Bombing. Avoided it but went after the AF previous turn. Fairly useless attempt..."

Then he modified this later in the nightt: "Have thought a lot about this topic and have decided to go with no night bombing PERIOD. Was going to go along the lines of no Port Bombing but then thought that that wasn’t consistent. Consider the issue settled. Am reasonably sure I changed everyone for this turn. I think..."

I replied this morning:

"When we originally discussed the issue of night bombing in 2013, our concerns came from widespread reports in the Forum that it was rather borked. Those reports might have been exaggerated or the issue might have been addressed in later patches. If so, let' discuss.

"There will come a time when Allied night bombing is historical and I'll want to use it. But if it's borked in some way then we'll need to address it then too.

"Of course, Japan did use night bombing. As I recall there were occasional Betty raids in the islands campaigns. They weren't large numbers, as I recall, nor were the particularly effective.

"So I'm open to discussing, but would like to make sure we're on the same page with the same understanding.

"So until further notice, neither of us is night bombing. But let's discuss if you wish to."

Unless night bombing is totally borked (I haven't heard anything of that sort in years, so I don't think it is), I intend to engage in it when I draw close enough to Japan to employ it. I'm sure the Allies used it in limited quantities earlier in the war, but I won't. Before I commence night bombing (perhaps months before), I'll let John know that I intend to use it historically (or, historically within the context of the game - meaning if I invade Okinawa tomorrow I'd consider using it). But if it does turn out to be borked, we'll address the issue then.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 8:53:07 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I had read that, but I was surprised even to see the item listed.


I was just listing the options that are available but making it clear that's one I wouldn't use.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 10:30:15 PM   
zuluhour


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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		I'd really like to hear what people have to say about night bombing, assuming the latest patch and particularly the DBB scenarios. I have been using it
to some effect but I certainly have seen nothing to get happy or mad about. I have seen NO spectacular results and found the Nick to be a worthy opponent
at night. I seriously doubt I got more than a dozen hits and half a dozen planes on the ground over Rangoon in 6 months of night bombing by Libs and
fortresses. They NEVER coordinated. I feel it just added a dimension to the game and forced Japan to use up base space for night fighters he could have
otherwise employed. Your port raid was successful. Perhaps all the cards fell right for you, ie the die rolls, Japanese preparedness etc..

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 10:34:52 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I'd really like to hear what people have to say about night bombing, assuming the latest patch and particularly the DBB scenarios. I have been using it
to some effect but I certainly have seen nothing to get happy or mad about. I have seen NO spectacular results and found the Nick to be a worthy opponent
at night. I seriously doubt I got more than a dozen hits and half a dozen planes on the ground over Rangoon in 6 months of night bombing by Libs and
fortresses. They NEVER coordinated. I feel it just added a dimension to the game and forced Japan to use up base space for night fighters he could have
otherwise employed. Your port raid was successful. Perhaps all the cards fell right for you, ie the die rolls, Japanese preparedness etc..


Do you notice a fatigue difference when using them and regular aircraft at night?


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/27/2016 10:57:16 PM   
zuluhour


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Status: offline 		I had not really noticed much as every raid seemed a little different.
Weather: Thunderstorms: lucky to get one 500 pounder on anything. (I have only really tried this in Burma, very little in the Pacific)
Co-ordination: I NEVER got squadrons to combine nor a full squadron to carry out a raid, regardless of weather.
Losses: I suffered 20-70% (guesstimating) damaged a/c every challenged raid losing maybe 15% to Ops over the course of a month worth of raids.
Fatigue: I almost always fly a 1%-0% fatigue, I can't help it. Libs and Forts I stand down after 99% of every raid. As I am about to commence some night time
raids over Thailand I'll keep a closer eye on this.

One Success: I do think I had one or two solid raids over new Guinea. Neither was defended by fighters and flak was light. I think I remember getting
3 on the ground and scoring double digit hits. These were the exception for me. I will email Skygee on our next turn to see if he'll volunteer anything.

ps. As a follow up, I also feel like the missions are less likely to fly in the first place, though I generally do not review the 4E squadron leaders unless I
something strange happens. I start looking at them when I cull the pilots for the superforts.

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 1/28/2016 12:02:33 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 1:02:59 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's an update, and likely your answer, regarding engineers. As I'll show in a moment, they did suffer disruption but no fatigue or disablements. In fact, all support troops (HQ, engineers, base support) suffered about 50% disruption, 0 fatigue, 0 disablements in the bombardments. But the ground troops weren't touched. Here's an example including all major ground troops and engineer units (note that there are alot of the latter). Figures are: Disruption/Fatigue/Disablement

1. SWPac HQ: 47/3/0
2. 164 RCT: 0/3/0
3. 132 RCT: 0/3/0
4. 762 Tanks: 0/2/0
5. 1st Marines: 0/5/0
6. 813 EAB: 49/3/0
7. 2 USMC EAB: 41/3/0
8. 193 Construction Reg't: 49/3/0
9. 8th Sea Bees: 49/3/0
10. 15th Sea Bees: 49/3/0
11. 22nd Sea Bees: 49/3/0

Supply at the base is now 282k. It was at 302k just before the bombardment, but there was also a transfer of at least 10k (and possibly considerably more) to Langsa. So the bombardment had minimal affect on supply.

Disruption is no doubt part of the issue that slowed repairs. The other is probably the high level AF (9) and high level forts.
Forts don't show damage per se but a level 9 AF protected by level 6 forts is a huge chunk of concrete and engineer effort. To restore a damaged AF you also restore the forts that were associated with the AF.
At least when you are originally building them, a high level of forts existing before construction on an AF level requires more effort to ensure the increased AF facilities keep forts of the same level. So I believe that applies during repairs too.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 1:42:21 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		2/21/43:

That night, he came down with a fever. In the cool of the morning, when he opened his eyes, there were 20 warriors on horseback watching him. (He didn't know it in his delirium, but they were an Arapaho hunting party not at war with the white man - at the moment, anyhow.) Believing his life would end right there and then, Clint rose to his feet unsteadily, pulled his pistol from his belt, and ran at the hunters, screaming his fool head off and brandishing his weapon. The Arapahoes, believing they were in the presence of one who had lost his mind, kicked their ponies into motion and left him standing there, his eyes feverish and a foolish grin on his face.

Battle of Sumatra: No sign of enemy combat ships today (and none seem to be coming up the slot from Singers, as near as I can tell). But John finally commits his airforce against Sabang. The result is friction - the fickle lady smiles on the Allies this day. John loses about 180 aircraft, including 46 Tojos (important attrition that keeps his sweeps at a reasonable pace), 87 Kates, and 52 Sallies and Helens. The CAP performed well (probably because the IJAAF fighters were in escort roles) and the AA was stout. John got spanked a bit. If this discourages him from using bombers against Sabang, then that's one threat that's been reduced. Friction is my friend right now. Perhaps my only one.

The KB remains west of Sabang. Allied subs are near and showing detection, which gives John that to worry over. The Birmingham/Cleveland TF will vacate the port again tonight. Mine are still 956, so no enemy casualties last night (nor any visitors, best I can tell).

Sabang's engineers have recovered now. Runway damage is down to 19. Supplies at 276k. No immediate threat to the troops at Langsa and the hex to the south (though I'm guessing John will mount a ground campaign there; I'd prefer that over an amphibious assault of Langsa).

Allied combat ships are spread out and awaiting that elusive (and risky) window to break for Sabang. BB North Carolina returns to the map tomorrow. I don't see her getting a chance to go to Sabang anytime soon, and don't know if I'd want to even if there was a good window.

Here's hoping the IJN battlewagons are still days away. At this point, John's BBs seem to be his only route to winning this campaign on any kind of timely basis. So please, Lady Friction, work your magic on the Kongos.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/28/2016 2:44:59 AM >

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Post #: 4257
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 4:41:15 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		ooooh.

He should have swept for a day or 2 before trying this, maybe he assume that his BB caused ore damage.


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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 4258
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 4:45:18 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Yup. Even sweeping the same day would have been better, but maybe he felt he didn't have enough fighters for escort and sweep. Good news for the defense!

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(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 4259
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/28/2016 4:47:17 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Yup. Even sweeping the same day would have been better, but maybe he felt he didn't have enough fighters for escort and sweep. Good news for the defense!

I thought that but maybe his sweep didnt fly?

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4260
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